Whats has Happened to Ret pallies?

[Professor Expert]

It's not. It's only good, with a Talent (Selfless Healer), which is most effectiv after 3 judgements (which has a 6 sec. cooldown), and if you killed an enemy, that grants you honor or xp.
Outside this, your offheal is the same as your selfheal is - 30k.
Sure, you have some other tools, but BoP cannot be used (and would be dump) on your FC. LoH is diasabled in rated PvP.

Selfless Healer is probably the best talent for pvp, and at level 100 your CD on judgement will be more like 4-5 seconds...so a strong heal every 12-15 seconds depending on whether or not you are clever enough to load up on haste, or use the empowered seals talent along with seal of righteousness. Along with using the divine purpose talent, you'll frequently be able to blast full-power WoG heals on yourself and a teammate. I've risen to over 2K in arena as an enhancement shaman playing with a skilled ret who is very good at managing heals. We basically heal each other while dealing damage. If they go for me, he attacks and throws heals on me and vice versa...ret, when spec'd and played well, is very formidable.

You still need a critical hit to deal that enormous amount of damage, many people are talking about. And our burst is still easy to counter.

If only there was a talent that gave you a 1,000 point buff to crit, haste, mastery, multistrike and versatility with a 30 sec CD and 15 sec duration.

Compared to Others, it's one of the worst.
A good player can survive something, but with another class/specc, an average player can survive in the same way.

I'd have to disagree with this. A feral druid stunned in cat form drops pretty easily...so do rdruids who have their HoTs purged by me while the ret unloads on them. It's situational. Rets can kite very well using the long arm or pursuit of justice talent and so surviving isn't just about absorbing damage but how well you can evade.

True story, but you forget, that also very good players still have a limit. Not they, but the class/specc will have their limits.
A DK with Support can survive so much longer, and deals more damage, as a ret with support.

DKs are more self-sufficient but aside from grip they don't offer a whole lot to a group. You're greatly underestimating the value of being able to off-heal at will. It's a big deal.

If the DK knows, how to play, there's no reason to take the Ret. Even it the Ret plays much better, the DK will bring more (Grip, surviveability, substaineded damage and burst).

I'd take the ret who's better over the DK who "knows how to play".

Rets playing with HA (95%) are only worth every 2min. The Ones with DP (~2%) are worth everytime.
That's the difference.

Yes, DP is generally better than HA for most situations, and seraphim is effectively boosting your secondary stats by 10% every 15 seconds if you choose it. It's good. Cookie-cutter specs are dead and you need to swap both glyphs and talents based on the composition of the opposing team. This is why you can swap both talents and glyphs for free before each rated arena or BG match.

[Animefreak3K]

Selfless Healer is probably the best talent for pvp, and at level 100 your CD on judgement will be more like 4-5 seconds...so a strong heal every 12-15 seconds depending on whether or not you are clever enough to load up on haste, or use the empowered seals talent along with seal of righteousness.

SH is too strong, that's why Flashlight was nerfed.
Depending on your haste, you still have a Judgement in 5-6 seconds. 4-5 only with Emp. Seals.
15-18 seconds for a Heal, that is 60% higher (on mates) and instant is ok. But it's not a massivly heal. 30*1,6=48k non-critical and 72k critical.
No one said that's bad. But it's a) not so super good as so many people are saying, and b) it's only that effectiv, if non of your enemies purge the stacks (and you have to have the three stacks).

or use the empowered seals talent

Emp. Seals has no place in RBG. Only Seraphim and FV are good enough, and even Seraphim isn't that good enough, because it's only reeaallly good with HA or SW.
But your're still only good every 2min. The Problem stays the same.

Along with using the divine purpose talent, you'll frequently be able to blast full-power WoG heals on yourself and a teammate.

I play only with DP.
But we're still talking about RBG, not Arena!

If only there was a talent that gave you a 1,000 point buff to crit, haste, mastery, multistrike and versatility with a 30 sec CD and 15 sec duration.

See obove.

I'd have to disagree with this.

Ok i should've been more clearer - i'm sorry.

A good Ret player can survive something more, but a good average Dk player can survive in the same way.

If you have enough tool and know them (not how to use everything in the best way), with support (still talking about RBG), you'll be able to survive the same or more.

DKs are more self-sufficient but aside from grip they don't offer a whole lot to a group.

And that's enought for RBG. Damage and surviveability are also support. But in a different way.

You're greatly underestimating the value of being able to off-heal at will.

You don't know me.
I would play my ret in a way, where maybe not even 5% of all rets would be play him in rated pvp.

seraphim is effectively boosting your secondary stats by 10% every 15 seconds if you choose it.

It's boosting your secondary stats by 1.000. But your're still only good every 2min. This problem still stands in the Ret's way.
We have this Problem for the third addon now.

It's good.

No one said, it's bad .

Cookie-cutter specs are dead and you need to swap both glyphs and talents based on the composition of the opposing team. This is why you can swap both talents and glyphs for free before each rated arena or BG match.

Mostly, but so many talents and glyphs are still set, for being "good" or "viable".
Many Talents/Glyphs are too strong or too weak. Some are really useless.

[Deleted]

Ret's direct off-healing is probably best in the game by far of any DPS, so that means you can leave a ret and another DPS to guard a flag or FC while having a healer on offense rather than having the healer sit on D where you're not getting much utility out of the healer.

Rets also have high on-demand burst that is very consistent and has no RNG component...

So do I understand you correctly that you want to leave a FC with a few stacks on him together with a ret who will heal him?

And regarding the "no rng component"... Divine Purpose has a 25% chance to procc, holy power consumers have a 25% chance to make the next Divine Storm free and do 50% more damage, and (although it doesn't really contribute to the burst) every autoattack has a 20% chance to reset cd on Exorcism.
FV into DS into FV into DS is a whole lot more damage then doing your 'normal' rotation.

Also Seraphim costs 5 holy power, so I guess it is only really useable with HA, making you a twice-a-minute-burst ret. Otherwise you lose out on almost 2 Templar's Verdicts.

[Professor Expert]

SH is too strong, that's why Flashlight was nerfed.
Depending on your haste, you still have a Judgement in 5-6 seconds. 4-5 only with Emp. Seals.
15-18 seconds for a Heal, that is 60% higher (on mates) and instant is ok. But it's not a massivly heal. 30*1,6=48k non-critical and 72k critical.
No one said that's bad. But it's a) not so super good as so many people are saying, and b) it's only that effectiv, if non of your enemies purge the stacks (and you have to have the three stacks).

It shouldn't be super good; but it's pretty good, making rets solid teammates. Yes, having your stacks dispelled sucks but on the plus side, SH is free in that you don't need to exchange damage to get that heal off. WoG, I feel, should be a little stronger than it is right now when used on yourself or a teammate.

Emp. Seals has no place in RBG. Only Seraphim and FV are good enough, and even Seraphim isn't that good enough, because it's only reeaallly good with HA or SW.
But your're still only good every 2min. The Problem stays the same.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you can say flat out that emp. seals is just bad because with a good macro you can juggle 2 of the buffs, so 15% AP and 20% haste at all times is still a good deal. I think FV is the dullest talent and it's overall damage contribution is probably the weakest, although it can help with burst. Seraphim has high uptime and is easier to keep up than juggling with ES, but it costs more.

The real crux of the issue was already addressed, and that is that off-CD damage for rets is too low. I don't disagree; I've played one and I was surprised how in full 660 gear it was doing less damage than my enhance was doing in the 620 gear.

I play only with DP.
But we're still talking about RBG, not Arena!

Sure, and I maintain that a well-played ret is a fine addition to any team whether it be arena or RBGs.

A good Ret player can survive something more, but a good average Dk player can survive in the same way.

If you have enough tool and know them (not how to use everything in the best way), with support (still talking about RBG), you'll be able to survive the same or more.

Wouldn't you say that's more of a problem with DKs having too much resilience? They're extremely durable considering the amount of damage they are capable of and they can out self-heal my enhance shaman, which is just broken. They were closer to what they should be in MoP, where they dealt big damage but also died easily...maybe a bit too easily, but glass hammers and all that.

And that's enought for RBG. Damage and surviveability are also support. But in a different way.

Which is what I'm saying rets can offer just as a DK can. I know I'd rather have a ret in my corner than a DK if I had to choose.

It's boosting your secondary stats by 1.000. But your're still only good every 2min. This problem still stands in the Ret's way. We have this Problem for the third addon now.

I know, 1,000 rating points roughly work out to 10% for a given stat. Some get more benefit, some get less but on average having seraphim up is probably close to a flat 20% damage boost. I mean, 1,000 versatility alone is worth about 8% flat damage and a 4% damage reduction.

Mostly, but so many talents and glyphs are still set, for being "good" or "viable".
Many Talents/Glyphs are too strong or too weak. Some are really useless.

That's not exclusive to paladins. All classes have their share of WTF glyphs and talents that are generally useless.

My point being that some combinations of talents/glyphs work better against certain comps, as well as with certain partners. For example, I'll run glyph of purging whenever I'm against a rdruid, boomkin or priest, knowing that I'll have tons of MW procs as a result. If I'm up against a paladin or mage I'll make sure to have shamanistic rage so I can dispel HoJ or deep freeze. If I'm up against something like a DK/Warr I'll go for spirit wolves to boost the healing they provide.

So do I understand you correctly that you want to leave a FC with a few stacks on him together with a ret who will heal him?

No, you'd usually have 2 healers on D but you could get by with 1 good healer and a ret. I have done this with my enhance shaman with similar effectiveness, allowing my team to push stronger offense and win. Remember if they deploy their heals on O they leave their FC open, and if they keep them on D then we can defend with fewer. There's more than one valid strategy to win an RBG.

And regarding the "no rng component"... Divine Purpose has a 25% chance to procc, holy power consumers have a 25% chance to make the next Divine Storm free and do 50% more damage, and (although it doesn't really contribute to the burst) every autoattack has a 20% chance to reset cd on Exorcism.
FV into DS into FV into DS is a whole lot more damage then doing your 'normal' rotation.

No RNG if you choose holy avenger, meaning you are guaranteed powerful burst for 20 sec during that window without hoping you get procs of some kind.

Also Seraphim costs 5 holy power, so I guess it is only really useable with HA, making you a twice-a-minute-burst ret. Otherwise you lose out on almost 2 Templar's Verdicts.

You have plenty of opportunity to build up holy power without relying on HA in the normal course of a battle...and I agree that ret needs some better base damage...it is too weak off-CD.

[Animefreak3K]

It shouldn't be super good; but it's pretty good, making rets solid teammates. Yes, having your stacks dispelled sucks but on the plus side, SH is free in that you don't need to exchange damage to get that heal off.

As i mentioned before: no one said, it's bad.

WoG, I feel, should be a little stronger than it is right now when used on yourself or a teammate.

After Flashlight was nerfed, WoG was buffed. WoG itself is fine. Just the HP-generation is bad. DP could have a chance (50/100%) that Judgement/Crusader Strike generates 2 HP.

I don't think you can say flat out that emp. seals is just bad because with a good macro you can juggle 2 of the buffs, so 15% AP and 20% haste at all times is still a good deal. I think FV is the dullest talent and it's overall damage contribution is probably the weakest, although it can help with burst. Seraphim has high uptime and is easier to keep up than juggling with ES, but it costs more.

Emp. Seals = more flexibility and more Survivability
Seraphim = hardest burst, but expensive and short duration (15 sec.)
Final Verdict = solid substainded damage, boosting AoE-damage massivly, passive.

This goes for RBG and Arenas.

I think you don't get the point. A Ret has only two options in an RBG:

1.) Burst as much as possible. Nearly all rets are playing with this "style". Massivly Burst every 2min. That's pretty much all.
2.) Doing as much AoE-Damage as possible. Maybe ~3% are playing this "style". I'm one of these ~3%.

2nd is the way, Blizzard sees the Ret in an RBG. But no one wants so see this, sadly.

Sure, and I maintain that a well-played ret is a fine addition to any team whether it be arena or RBGs.

That's still not part of the discussion here.
Every well-playes Specc is a fine addition.

Wouldn't you say that's more of a problem with DKs having too much resilience?

Sure, but this are still fact. Besides: Resilience is gone, but i know what you mean .


know, 1,000 rating points roughly work out to 10% for a given stat. Some get more benefit, some get less but on average having seraphim up is probably close to a flat 20% damage boost. I mean, 1,000 versatility alone is worth about 8% flat damage and a 4% damage reduction.

Crit: 8,70%
Haste: 11,11%
Mastery: 20,41%
Multistrike: 18,18
Versatility: 7,69%

But still only 15 sec. Burst. Then you'll (still) have to wait 2min, for (a 15 sec.) be able to burst again.

Which is what I'm saying rets can offer just as a DK can.

No they can't, because both classes/speccs have totally different meanings and playstlyes in PvP. A DK has always a much better substainded damage, than a ret. He also can burst more often. Don't forget his grip. Totally different Classes...
You can also change DK into Warrior. The result is the same.

That's not exclusive to paladins.

I've never said that .
I just joined your post.

No RNG if you choose holy avenger, meaning you are guaranteed powerful burst for 20 sec during that window without hoping you get procs of some kind.

Here we go again - the 2min Paladin.

[Professor Expert]

As i mentioned before: no one said, it's bad.

After Flashlight was nerfed, WoG was buffed. WoG itself is fine. Just the HP-generation is bad. DP could have a chance (50/100%) that Judgement/Crusader Strike generates 2 HP.

Never claimed anyone was saying SH is bad, but it's getting downplayed. You did say SH is "just good", but a strong, fairly frequent instant heal that has no resource cost beyond the GCD is more than "good", it's at the very least "damn good"...add to that the fact that you don't need to wait until you have 3 stacks to cast it. Even with 1 or 2 stacks you can put out some impressive healing by hard casting FoL.

Disagree about WoG; it feels weak even when cast with 3 holy power. It's 330% of spell power, which is maybe 15-18K heal...that's about as much as a DK gets with death siphon and the DK is doing damage while healing himself. IMO it would be better if SH was baseline, then WoG would be fine as it is.

Emp. Seals = more flexibility and more Survivability
Seraphim = hardest burst, but expensive and short duration (15 sec.)
Final Verdict = solid substainded damage, boosting AoE-damage massivly, passive.

This goes for RBG and Arenas.

I think you don't get the point. A Ret has only two options in an RBG:

1.) Burst as much as possible. Nearly all rets are playing with this "style". Massivly Burst every 2min. That's pretty much all.
2.) Doing as much AoE-Damage as possible. Maybe ~3% are playing this "style". I'm one of these ~3%.

2nd is the way, Blizzard sees the Ret in an RBG. But no one wants so see this, sadly.

If you do the math on final verdict, you'll probably be surprised to see that the increased net damage isn't nearly as much as you think it is. The 10 yd range is a plus but overall I'd rather take either of the other two in most situations.

I get the point that you have your way of playing in RBGs and see things through a narrow lens, but you don't speak for all players and you are not really making the case that "rets are not a good choice" over some of the other classes. You can alter your team's strategy based on who you have on your team. If you have a rogue as FC you don't play as you would using a tank as FC. If you have a ret instead of a DK, you make a strat that leverages the strengths of what you have. Ret's bring high AoE, great off-heals and high on-demand burst...work with what you have rather than complaining about what you can't do.

If you think that heavy AoE damage isn't helpful in an RBG then you're not doing it right. On my shaman, I can put out so much AoE if the horde group is clumped together that the whole team's HP collectively drops by 30-40% in just a few seconds. This puts massive pressure on healers and often causes players to burn defensive CDs...and guess what, even if you are doing AoE as a ret you still retain the ability to do single-target burst on demand when your CDs are up.

It's not every 2 mins, technically, because avenging wrath lasts 20 sec and has a 2 min CD so your theoretical uptime is every 1 min 40 sec...but with seraphim it's just about as good as having wings up every 15 sec, and wings plus seraphim is even better.

That's still not part of the discussion here.
Every well-playes Specc is a fine addition.

The discussion is ret paladin pvp viability, so yes, it's part of the discussion and if it wasn't before I'm making it part of the discussion now. Player competence matters, especially in RBGs where individual skill takes a back seat to intelligent teamwork.

Crit: 8,70%
Haste: 11,11%
Mastery: 20,41%
Multistrike: 18,18
Versatility: 7,69%

But still only 15 sec. Burst. Then you'll (still) have to wait 2min, for (a 15 sec.) be able to burst again.

But still nothing. Those values on top of your base values represent a substantial buff. No way around it..and like I said, versatility alone is a heavy damage and healing buff so even if you didn't get 1000 point boost to the other stats, seraphim would still be a very smart choice of talents just for 1000 versatility on its own. You can do this every 15 sec....I don't know why you think seraphim shouldn't have a limited duration considering how powerful it is. And before you claim that "you didn't say that", you did just complain about the 15 sec duration and 2 min CD.

Along with divine purpose, seraphim will make effective use of your holy power abilities even though it costs 5 holy power to activate it.

No they can't, because both classes/speccs have totally different meanings and playstlyes in PvP. A DK has always a much better substainded damage, than a ret. He also can burst more often. Don't forget his grip. Totally different Classes...
You can also change DK into Warrior. The result is the same.

You're not really making a convincing argument for "ret paladins being worse than other melee", rather you're just highlighting that all classes bring something helpful to the table...the problem is you're not picking up on that. I'm glad that DKs can do more damage, but they cannot off heal or put out heavy AoE. Grip is useful but it's not "godly", like not having it assures your team loses.

There's just a lot of mindless parroting going on in the forums about which classes are regarded as "the best". The idea that there's "the best" anything in the game is about as obsolete as gold farming. All classes have a solid DPS spec. Team comps matter even less so in 10v10 than in 3v3 or 2v2.

The biggest problem with the internet is that people have started to outsource independent thought to the anonymous (and often ignorant) collective...rather than form an original idea themselves, they immediately consult google or see what someone else said on their forum of choice in order to discover what they should think. Not being able to see potential or valid strategies for winning high-rated RBGs as a ret paladin doesn't mean you can't, or that it's not viable, or that some other class is better...after all, I play as an enhancement shaman...which according to most forums "is a terrible pvp spec / target dummy / purge bot" blah blah blah...and yet I've ascended to >2K ratings in both arena and rbgs. Ret

I've never said that .
I just joined your post.

You said: "Mostly, but so many talents and glyphs are still set, for being "good" or "viable".
Many Talents/Glyphs are too strong or too weak. Some are really useless."

And I replied that it's an issue not exclusive to paladins, because this thread is about ret paladins in pvp, a comment such as the one you made comes with the implication that ret paladins have a more restrictive set of useful glyphs or talents to choose from than other classes.

So yes, you did say that because you didn't qualify your statement in contrast to the topic.

Here we go again - the 2min Paladin.

No, it's 1m 40s paladin...and with seraphim your base damage is effectively boosted by a net amount of 15-20% or so every 15 sec.

[Deleted]

I don't like the style of several of your arguments. Yes, parroting isn't intelligent, but thinking that you're the enlightend and have discovered the holy grail of pvpness is even more stupid, especially if you don't even play the class. The same goes for "Sure, and I maintain that a well-played ret is a fine addition to any team whether it be arena or RBGs." Yes, a great player is probably a good addition to any team, but that's not the point. The point is the relative strength of a ret compared to other classes, while played on the same skill level. Saying "if the Ret is good he can be better then other classes" is just circumventing the discussion and making a proxy argument.

Furthermore reaching 2k still doesn't mean you're right. I just reached 1.9k with my healpal while playing with a random dk and rogue, and I'm the first to admit that I know nothing about the specc. I simply copied everything from higher ranked pals, or bought most items randomly without looking for stats.

No, it's 1m 40s paladin...and with seraphim your base damage is effectively boosted by a net amount of 15-20% or so every 15 sec.

For the last time, no it isn't. Think of it as this - Holy Power are your combo points, and FV is your finisher. You need to give up 1 2/3 of your finishers to activate it, so you lost damage that you need to substract from the damage you would get. That's why literally no ret speccs it. Just take a look at the high ranked rets, there's almost no variety in talents and glyphs taken. And I think at least some of those 2.5k+ rated player aren't just parroting what they've read on the forums, but decided that their talents are indeed the best for them.

[Animefreak3K]

Thanks Shaileen

[Professor Expert]

I don't like the style of several of your arguments. Yes, parroting isn't intelligent, but thinking that you're the enlightend and have discovered the holy grail of pvpness is even more stupid, especially if you don't even play the class.

I hardly care if you "like" what I say or not...and your argument is non-existent. I don't play ret, I play with one who is very skilled and his class doesn't hold him back. So when I see threads like this made by whiners who want to whine rather than L2Play, I'll be glad to explain how wrong they are.

Also, holy grail, really? Did I say rets are gods of some kinds? No, and I didn't even imply it...but if you're expecting every melee to be a 2-button easy mode then maybe just maybe ret isn't for you.

The same goes for "Sure, and I maintain that a well-played ret is a fine addition to any team whether it be arena or RBGs." Yes, a great player is probably a good addition to any team, but that's not the point. The point is the relative strength of a ret compared to other classes, while played on the same skill level. Saying "if the Ret is good he can be better then other classes" is just circumventing the discussion and making a proxy argument.

All classes in the game are competitive. If you're attempting to push the tired and outdated argument that because class A does less damage than class B and therefor sucks, you're wrong. Same as the guy before, who "never said that" when he did. I doubt you or he are really all that great ret paladin players because if you were, you'd probably not be riding the "not worth taking a ret in an RBG" bandwagon.

Furthermore reaching 2k still doesn't mean you're right. I just reached 1.9k with my healpal while playing with a random dk and rogue, and I'm the first to admit that I know nothing about the specc. I simply copied everything from higher ranked pals, or bought most items randomly without looking for stats.

We're talking about ret paladins not holy paladins.

For the last time, no it isn't. Think of it as this - Holy Power are your combo points, and FV is your finisher. You need to give up 1 2/3 of your finishers to activate it, so you lost damage that you need to substract from the damage you would get. That's why literally no ret speccs it. Just take a look at the high ranked rets, there's almost no variety in talents and glyphs taken. And I think at least some of those 2.5k+ rated player aren't just parroting what they've read on the forums, but decided that their talents are indeed the best for them.

So you're saying that because you checked the armory of some ret paladin with >2K rating, you assume that they ONLY use those talents/glyphs and never change them out? Even though players can change talents/glyphs any time outside of combat and before every rated match...these expert ret paladins just settle on whatever their armory shows at the time and that's that...ok.

Brilliant deduction, sir.

[Daeth]

The biggest issue I have is that I played ret near the beginning of the arena season getting started and I could play a variety of comps and have a good time however I had to run cupid to get to 2.3k CR.

I stopped playing for a couple of months and came back recently and now it's a complete storm of bs. The ONLY comp that is viable as a ret is pretty much cupid cleave, every other comp that use to work doesn't anymore because holy pallies got buffed.

I can't even enjoy arena or as previously mentioned as well, no RBGs will take me at 2k+ CR. It's making the game less enjoyable because I enjoy playing ret and going back to maining my rogue is something I'd rather not do.

[Deleted]

I hardly care if you "like" what I say or not...and your argument is non-existent. I don't play ret, I play with one who is very skilled and his class doesn't hold him back. So when I see threads like this made by whiners who want to whine rather than L2Play, I'll be glad to explain how wrong they are.

Ok, to be clear: You play with a ret who is on a "decent" rating of 2k, and because of that Rets are fine and you need to explain this simple fact to everyone, because everyone else who thinks that Ret isn't on par with other speccs is dumb? Thank you, I couldn't have shown your simple-mindness any better then yourself.

And for the rest of the posts - you are avoiding any argument I make and talking about different stuff. Well, I guess you aren't interested in any discussion after all, so I guess I'll just stop responding to you. Have a nice day.

[Animefreak3K]

Ok, to be clear: You play with a ret who is on a "decent" rating of 2k, and because of that Rets are fine and you need to explain this simple fact to everyone, because everyone else who thinks that Ret isn't on par with other speccs is dumb? Thank you, I couldn't have shown your simple-mindness any better then yourself.

And for the rest of the posts - you are avoiding any argument I make and talking about different stuff. Well, I guess you aren't interested in any discussion after all, so I guess I'll just stop responding to you. Have a nice day.

Pretty much that.
As long a Rets are (still) forced to be the 2-min-ret, nothing will chance.

[Professor Expert]

Ok, to be clear: You play with a ret who is on a "decent" rating of 2k, and because of that Rets are fine and you need to explain this simple fact to everyone, because everyone else who thinks that Ret isn't on par with other speccs is dumb? Thank you, I couldn't have shown your simple-mindness any better then yourself.

And for the rest of the posts - you are avoiding any argument I make and talking about different stuff. Well, I guess you aren't interested in any discussion after all, so I guess I'll just stop responding to you. Have a nice day.

In general the way it works is that most players are not that good at this game despite what they believe, and when they do well with a class because said class is tuned better than others (i.e. ret dmg was pretty good early on in WoD) or is outright OP (DKs right now), their ego becomes more inflated...but then when things level off, most players are geared and the initial advantages that they had because of their class/spec/gear advantage evaporates, they cannot accept that and declare that the class is "bad" when in reality it's they who are just "not that good and never were".

Ret paladins as a class are not bad, far from it...and neither are enhancement shaman (another class/spec that gets a lot of unjustified complaining on forums). The thing is that to do well with ret, you have to actually be a good player and not just believe you are. It's a lot more difficult to be effective as ret than it is with a DK, but that does not mean rets are ineffective OR less effective in RBGs or arena. All classes in the game have a competitive PVP spec that is more than capable of attaining higher ratings...no class is "bad" or "not worth taking".

Pretty much that.
As long a Rets are (still) forced to be the 2-min-ret, nothing will chance.

Except they're not, and if you think they are then you're just using it as an excuse to explain whatever limitation you haven't been able to overcome as a player. If you want ez-mode, play a FOTM class. Ret is not FOTM right now. I have a sense that you ditched your ret in favor of a DK, realized how easy it is to play a DK by comparison (high damage, high self healing, strong anti-CC abilities) and decided that ret is sub-par.

Also, 1 min 40 sec. The CD on avenging wrath counts down when activated, not after the 20 sec duration of AR has elapsed...so it has an effective uptime interval of 1 min 40 sec. During and between each AR interval, you have enough time to use HoJ 4 times - a whopping potential of 24 seconds where your opponent is stunned if you use the stun each time it's up.

[Omaski]

Ive mained Ret ever since cata and ive never re-rolled to any FotM classes and im not some whiner who thinks he is good. i knw im good but im never given the chance to show it because of the negative mindset ppl have about ret paladins in pvp...all im asking for is a chance.

[Deleted]

It's funny how everyone complained on RET Paladins before while it's actually the only class that haven't been available in anything since basically Wrath.

[Animefreak3K]

In general the way it works is that most players are not that good at this game despite what they believe, and when they do well with a class because said class is tuned better than others (i.e. ret dmg was pretty good early on in WoD) or is outright OP (DKs right now), their ego becomes more inflated...but then when things level off, most players are geared and the initial advantages that they had because of their class/spec/gear advantage evaporates, they cannot accept that and declare that the class is "bad" when in reality it's they who are just "not that good and never were".

Ret paladins as a class are not bad, far from it...and neither are enhancement shaman (another class/spec that gets a lot of unjustified complaining on forums). The thing is that to do well with ret, you have to actually be a good player and not just believe you are. It's a lot more difficult to be effective as ret than it is with a DK, but that does not mean rets are ineffective OR less effective in RBGs or arena. All classes in the game have a competitive PVP spec that is more than capable of attaining higher ratings...no class is "bad" or "not worth taking".

You still don't get it.
Ret's aren't bad, it's just a fact, that a DK or Warrior are more effective, because of all their utility/Talents/Gampeplay/Surviveability.
In RBG's, Rets are still only worth every 2min. Yes, the counter starts if you use your Abilities, but they're ready again after 2min. Not 1min 40 sec.

Compared to a DK oder a Warrior, a Ret can't survive this long, as these both can. And on the top of that, a Ret can't do that much pressure outside of his Burst.
I assume that you know, a DK and Warrior have lower CD on their Burst.

Your're still ignoring these fact.
I was a co-leader of a RBG-Team. We played at ~1800 lr. We had 2 Rets (a friend and me).
Always first target, always trained. Surviving was so unbelievable hard for us. The Utilty will bring a holypaladin too. These are all the same probleme, Rets are having since MoP.
Sure it was fun, but mostly frustating, because your're not able to be compeditive with a DK and a Warrior. It they've played at our level, we were obsolete.

Except they're not, and if you think they are then you're just using it as an excuse to explain whatever limitation you haven't been able to overcome as a player. If you want ez-mode, play a FOTM class. Ret is not FOTM right now. I have a sense that you ditched your ret in favor of a DK, realized how easy it is to play a DK by comparison (high damage, high self healing, strong anti-CC abilities) and decided that ret is sub-par.

I'm playing my Ret over 10 years - your're wrong .
You totally are.
I'm only counting facts - that you ignore and telling people here, something totally different.

[Professor Expert]

Ive mained Ret ever since cata and ive never re-rolled to any FotM classes and im not some whiner who thinks he is good. i knw im good but im never given the chance to show it because of the negative mindset ppl have about ret paladins in pvp...all im asking for is a chance.

That's basically why I have a problem with threads like this and the idea that because some classes are easier to play than others, the ones that are more challenging to play are labeled "bad", and then avoided or rejected from participating in main parts of the game.

You still don't get it.
Ret's aren't bad, it's just a fact, that a DK or Warrior are more effective, because of all their utility/Talents/Gampeplay/Surviveability.
In RBG's, Rets are still only worth every 2min. Yes, the counter starts if you use your Abilities, but they're ready again after 2min. Not 1min 40 sec.

Let's do some math:
Avenging Wrath: 20 sec Duration / 120 Sec CD
CD counts down immediately on use, so for 20 seconds of the 120 sec CD you have the benefit of AR, which means that in 100 sec (aka 1 min 40 seconds) AFTER AR expires you will be able to activate AR again.

So you're wrong about that, but let's see what else you're sure it's me that's not "getting it".

Compared to a DK oder a Warrior, a Ret can't survive this long, as these both can. And on the top of that, a Ret can't do that much pressure outside of his Burst.
I assume that you know, a DK and Warrior have lower CD on their Burst.

And BGs are not all about damage and burst. Sorry to say, but well-timed burst combined with high AoE and potent off-healing means rets are bring plenty of utility to the team. With the serpahim talent you effectively boost your average damage and healing by about 10%, while cutting the damage you take by another 4%.

DKs may be more resilient but that's exponentially less important for a class that isn't tanking and is part of a large group.

Your're still ignoring these fact.
I was a co-leader of a RBG-Team. We played at ~1800 lr. We had 2 Rets (a friend and me).
Always first target, always trained. Surviving was so unbelievable hard for us. The Utilty will bring a holypaladin too. These are all the same probleme, Rets are having since MoP.
Sure it was fun, but mostly frustating, because your're not able to be compeditive with a DK and a Warrior. It they've played at our level, we were obsolete.

ANYBODY WILL DIE IF TRAINED. Wow, are you really putting that forth as some kind of evidence to your point? It doesn't matter what class/spec you choose...if you have 3-6 DPS all focusing you, you're going to drop sooner rather than later. You would have died in that situation even as a DK or warr.

Outside of that scenario, ret gains its durability from its ability to heal itself and others. DKs can only heal themselves, and I agree that their healing is too strong...that's a problem with DKs not ret.

I'm playing my Ret over 10 years - your're wrong .
You totally are.
I'm only counting facts - that you ignore and telling people here, something totally different.

Hearsay and anecdotal claims are not facts and you have no basis for saying I'm wrong. You obviously have differing experience than I do both with playing as a ret and playing with one in competitive PvP. If you're team leader is saying "no rets" or any other class for that matter, find a better team or start you own.

[Cempa]

....its has been proven that players want to be great not make others great!

....While Feral also is on a 3min burst window CD wise, outside of it they heal (instant cast rejuv in cat or bear form), cyclone, knock back, stealth, root, prevent stealth, perma snare without silly switching of abilities...

For me the one change that NEEDS to happen is Seal merge for Retri into one Seal...

[Deleted]

Then again, Rets get Jailer's Libram in Ashran. So that balances things out.

[Professor Expert]

The mostly correct way to count what was achieved in RBG = CCs / CCs broken / flag or base caps / enemy kills / dps. Many many times you see an affli lock say "look at me I have done a gazillion damage" and hes happy next to his kill count of ZERO.

The only real "correct" way to quantify the results of a RBG is if your team won or not. The technical minutia you attempt to put forth as evidence of achievement is largely irrelevant in 10v10, where communication and teamwork are far more important that your class.

My enhancement shaman, which is also on the "bad for RBG list" by generally ignorant players, provides useful buffs, direct and AoE off healing, AoE snare, high burst and the ability to operate effectively independently...plus purge. But here's the thing...none of your "important stats" would apply to me, even though my presence make downing healers substantially easier while simultaneously reducing pressure for our own healers.

Rets bring similar off healing and therefore make good candidates for branch-off roles with one or two other DPS, great for capping or putting pressure on the EFC to keep healers off the main field.

For me ret paladin was always my last choice of dps and even more so now. I don't see any fragment of utility they could bring that can't be brought by another class. Problem with ret is same as feral. They are good in a general sense but if you ask whats the particularly good thing they do, there is no clear answer. Ofc its not the player's fault (obviously) but blizzard devs never really took the matters into their hands to make ret paladins and ferals worth noting in larger pvp scenarios.

Ret utility has already been addressed in this thread. Your inability as a team leader to make effective use of a ret does not make ret useless.

The fact that you can easily replace a ret with almost any other dps class and at the same time you can't do that with a mage or a rogue or a hunter, certainly shows the lack of ID that the spec needs.

If you think that it's always better to have a "well rounded" comp then you'll lose to teams that are biased toward either DPS or healing...and when you're up against other well-rounded teams you'll have to outplay them to win, in general.

I've led RBG teams at 2K level with a team comprised of 8 DPS and 2 healers, and several times in a row...I guess that's not supposed to happen but it does.

At the same time the role of a holy paladin in RBG cannot be ignored. Its perhaps the most important healer of the comp and this also adds to the problem for having a ret pala because any team worth its salt will come and tell you "better not run with 2 paladins".

No reason not to finish off your post with a generally unsubstantiated claim - an overstatement of the value of holy paladins relative to other healers and some myth that a RBG team with more than one paladin is poorly composed. lol Because what, your entire team is going to be in the same place on the map the entire time? The idea of splitting your team into smaller groups each with their own mission is foreign to you?

For RBGs, rshams are probably among the best healers because of their sheer throughput and the fact that they can keep an FC up longer than an HPAL...while HPALs are pretty easy to shut down if you focus them.