Changing up the rogue class

[Deleted]

I decided to re-write this post rather than make a new thread. Not everyone agrees on the same things, so lets make this interactive

Post your ideas in this thread, the well thought out ones get posted here. I'm going to start with my original post, posts with = are my suggestions.

Assassinations
Flavour: Heavy poison damage.
Balances: Only they have lethal poisons.

= Bake slice and dice into assassins resolve from level 10.
= Redesign venomous wounds, now procs off lethal poison damage instead.
= Mutilate is usable with non-dagger weapons (a lot of people liked this idea http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...wod-yay-or-nay
= New ability, Poison vial. Replaces crimson tempest.
We've seen them around in game during TOTC. Make them an targetable (like distract) AOE like death and decay, but apply a debuff to those affected instead of just when they stay in it. 10 second cooldown.
= Redesign vendetta: For the next 10 seconds you will not generate combo points or energy, but your finishing moves will only consume 1 combo point and behave as if they had 5 combo points.

Combat
Niche: Manage cooldowns usage and cleave all the things!

= No penalty to blade flurry to make up for loss of lethal poisons.
= Get rid of the annoying deep insight bull. People only care about it for damage & not because it's fun.
= Unfair advantage: When struck whilst in combat, you have a X% chance to gain evasion for 3 seconds.

Subtlety

Niche : A subutle user of blades, stealth, and "minor mysticism" in the form of shadow magic to penetrate armor. Indirectly build shit loads of combo points (not so much using builders) and spend them.

= Shadow blades is back and replaces expose weakness.
= Rupture is replaced with Crimson tempest.
= CT / Rupture ticks generate combo points. It's just a tidier more self sufficient form of HAT.

Now let's hear your ideas. Don't just say "I want sinister strike to do 1000% damage", put some thought in to how you're going to balance this and make it fun.

[dixincide]

combat uses 1 hand.
Were you referring to Sub?
Both work a little differently though, Sub relies more on Dots while Assassination is more of a hybrid execute spec

It would be nice to rework them into one another though, perhaps drop sub, and place shadow dance into assassination in place of vendetta. since so many people hate it. along with moving find weakness and hemorrhage over. back stab can be dropped in place of the execute proc that assassination has. I'd be on board for that.

Then ramp up the damage of Ambush so mutilate doesn't over rule it.

Then they could add a tanking spec in now that there is room for a 3rd spec. But that opens up a whole world of balancing issues. Although rogues do have a strong arsenal of defensive cool downs at their disposal.

[Deleted]

I partly agree, the bleed and dagger part of Sub could be merged into Assassination to get it a little more complex and even more roguish but the ignore armor and CD management makes much more sens to be merged into Combat. I mean Assassination already ignore armour... through poison, not through physical damage. On the other end, all the ignore armor and CD management (SD, etc...) fit perfectly well in the Combat landscape.

The remaining slot could be used for a tanking or healing spec, or even a range DPS spec, completely new and with a completely different flavor.

[Malvir]

Not saying they can't use adjustment, but I like the spec themes as they are. They fit well. The poisoner/executioner, the swashbuckler, and the attack-from-shadows stealther. I'd like to see those built out or changed up more rather than see any of them axed.

One thing I'm excited about is the T18 sub bonus. With the vanish cooldown reduction you can really play into the whole attack-from-stealth theme and a Sub rogue becomes a stealth-blink rogue and reminds me a bit of playing dagger/dagger thief in Guild wars 2 where you're popping in and out of stealth for a short duration frequently in a fight. That's the kind of mechanic that can make the Sub niche feel better and be more leveraged. The ninja-spec if you will.


I'd like to see the weaponlock issue addressed mostly. Might be crazy, but I like the idea of giving Rogues access to Polearms for at least one of the specs (combat maybe?). I'd also like to see daggers not be required and instead have tradeoffs to using daggers vs sword/mace/fist, or polearm, much like monks and DKs. That adds intra-spec flavor and also helps solve the weaponlock issue by giving us more options. Or go the Guild Wars 2 route and add in Pistols to the game. One of the rogue specs could be a pistoleer, so Combat could be like a pirate with possible off-hand pistol, then merge Sub and Assasination into a Ninja, and then you can have a dual wielding pistoleer as a short-ranged, quasi-melee rogue. That would certainly spice up the class a bit. But I'm way in the clouds just having fun brainstorming.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see weaponlock addressed.

I think a ranged rogue spec (ninja) would be pretty cool, personally.

We aren't gonna see a tsnk or heal spec.

I fully agree !
For example, let us Combat usable with daggers... The simplest way is to adjust abailites when a dagger is used. This would impact SS, RS and Main Gauche. These abilities should use 2.6/1.8 = 1.44 to turn daggers into slow weapons in the formulas.

[Deleted]

I fully agree !
For example, let us Combat usable with daggers... The simplest way is to adjust abailites when a dagger is used. This would impact SS, RS and Main Gauche. These abilities should use 2.6/1.8 = 1.44 to turn daggers into slow weapons in the formulas.

If you're going down that route, you may as well allow assassinations to play with non-daggers - that was something briefly mentioned pre release to this current expansion and I was really excited about it.

Make assassinations the only lethal poison spec, give combat permanent toggleable blade flurry, and give sub a proc that let's their finishers sometimes put them into stealth.

[xezar]

If you're going down that route, you may as well allow assassinations to play with non-daggers - that was something briefly mentioned pre release to this current expansion and I was really excited about it.

Make assassinations the only lethal poison spec, give combat permanent toggleable blade flurry, and give sub a proc that let's their finishers sometimes put them into stealth.

Yeah was excited about that also until blizz in its infinite "wisdom" thought it would be too complicated for any retards playing WoW, so they removed it

Still can't even mog daggers into normal one-handers fml...

I'd agree with doing away with weapon restrictions, they're mechanics of a bygone era, it's not like it's even 1h vs 2h which does have more implications (and why Frost DK and probably Warriors have stupid balancing issues since they need to try to balance between opposing DW specs using either 1h or one just with 2h). Just redo daggers to become exactly like another 1h weapon, in this case homogenization is a plus here, any minor "flavor" you get with this outdated restriction is stupid at best. Axes and swords can be coated with poison just as easily as daggers, just ask Magretha and Garrosh.

[Deleted]

Just redo daggers to become exactly like another 1h weapon, in this case homogenization is a plus here, any minor "flavor" you get with this outdated restriction is stupid at best. Axes and swords can be coated with poison just as easily as daggers, just ask Magretha and Garrosh.

Sounds like a pretty solid idea, unless a 2.6 weapon speed suddenly makes daggers attractive to other classes. Would be nice if rogues had some kind of perk for using daggers, something like additional multistrike or haste when a dagger is equipped. I like the idea of a rogue just weaving a dagger through opponents armour and getting extra strikes, crits, or armour penetration like abilities.

Back to my original suggestion though, I wasn't saying to strictly merg assassinations and subtlety - I don't want to start giving assassinations additional armor penetration abilities. I just feel as if subtlety is somewhat held back and balanced around shadowdance far too much. It would be nice if subtlety was reworked so that stealth was a core aspect and it was intergrated into the spec more. How to go about that is tricky. I haven't played gw2 but the thief class being able to role around and disappear mid combat is exactly what I'd imagine a subtlety rogue to be all about - but whether or not that would work in wow I have no idea.

[Alanar]

one question.. with all that many cc rogues has atm.. WHY oo WHY do they still have gouge? this is THE 1 abillity they could have taken away.. but nooo

[Deleted]

one question.. with all that many cc rogues has atm.. WHY oo WHY do they still have gouge? this is THE 1 abillity they could have taken away.. but nooo

Well, if they take it away, they have to replace it with something. It's unlikely they'd flat our remove it, but something like removing gouge in exchange for removing the combo point cost of kidneyshot would be fair.

[Cracked]

In all seriousness, rogue is already the easiest dps class rotation-wise and you are trying to make the specs even simplier. I already have nothing better than pick my nose to do while playing combat on cleave fights. When to toggle BF is the only decision you ever have to make, everything else is a no-brainer.

Similarly for assasination, even with anticipation you already can get CP capped with good gear, minimal decision making needed, don't even need to bank energy most of the time.

[Deleted]

In all seriousness, rogue is already the easiest dps class rotation-wise and you are trying to make the specs even simplier. I already have nothing better than pick my nose to do while playing combat on cleave fights. When to toggle BF is the only decision you ever have to make, everything else is a no-brainer.

Similarly for assasination, even with anticipation you already can get CP capped with good gear, minimal decision making needed, don't even need to bank energy most of the time.

I actually liked how assassination rogues played in wotlk and icc when rupture was dropped out of the rotation, it allowed me to look around and enjoy the game more. I want to use rupture because the damage is good, not because the damage buff or perk that comes along with it (venomous wounds) is good, I want rupture itself to be hard hitting.

The whole ideal behind the poison vial thing was so that you'd want to multi dot with poisons to generate more energy, which should at least be more interesting than rupture.

I'm not saying that my problem is with complicated mechanics, but rather out existing mechanics suck and are boring - thats why I want to hear suggestions.

[Cracked]

I actually liked how assassination rogues played in wotlk and icc when rupture was dropped out of the rotation, it allowed me to look around and enjoy the game more. I want to use rupture because the damage is good, not because the damage buff or perk that comes along with it (venomous wounds) is good, I want rupture itself to be hard hitting.

The whole ideal behind the poison vial thing was so that you'd want to multi dot with poisons to generate more energy, which should at least be more interesting than rupture.

I'm not saying that my problem is with complicated mechanics, but rather out existing mechanics suck and are boring - thats why I want to hear suggestions.

If you feel like you are using Rupture just for VW and that makes it boring, my suggestion is to get an addon that would consolidate your Rupture and VW damage. There, is it more fun to use Rupture now?

[Deleted]

If you feel like you are using Rupture just for VW and that makes it boring, my suggestion is to get an addon that would consolidate your Rupture and VW damage. There, is it more fun to use Rupture now?

Are you trying to be vicious? That is not the point that I am trying to make. I am not talking about numbers, I am talking about mechanics and how it feels to play a character. If numbers were the only thing that mattered, we may as well be playing a spreadsheet.

Besides, my suggestion to energy to regenerate from poisons instead of rupture was not to drop rupture from the rotation, but to generate energy from strategic use of the new targetable aoe poison vial that I also suggested. It would be something unique, throwing a targetable vial during downtime/low energy could work quite well.

[Cracked]

Besides, my suggestion to energy to regenerate from poisons instead of rupture was not to drop rupture from the rotation, but to generate energy from strategic use of the new targetable aoe poison vial that I also suggested. It would be something unique, throwing a targetable vial during downtime/low energy could work quite well.

Well, ok, that's your opinion, but I don't see how it would change much if anything at all for the way you play the spec right now.

My suggestion in regard to aoe would be to have Crimson Tempest spread Rupture up to 4-6 seconds and then if Crimson Tempest is used on a target with Rupture on it, it instantly consumes the Rupture and triggers all remaining VW ticks if the target is also poisoned.

So in aoe you would apply Rupture to 1 target, do FoK until targets are poisoned, do Crimson Tempest to spread Rupture + consume it on the main target and then either build a new Rupture on main target fast or instantly do another Crimson Tempest to consume all Ruptures on aoe targets.

[Deleted]

I would love if combat could use 2 handed sword or polearm sort of like a shadow ninja , theres even a ninja sword that has a blade hidden in the handle of the weapon , that u can activate it to be like a double bladed sword , that my friends is what we need for combat !

[Deleted]

Well, ok, that's your opinion, but I don't see how it would change much if anything at all for the way you play the spec right now.

My suggestion in regard to aoe would be to have Crimson Tempest spread Rupture up to 4-6 seconds and then if Crimson Tempest is used on a target with Rupture on it, it instantly consumes the Rupture and triggers all remaining VW ticks if the target is also poisoned.

So in aoe you would apply Rupture to 1 target, do FoK until targets are poisoned, do Crimson Tempest to spread Rupture + consume it on the main target and then either build a new Rupture on main target fast or instantly do another Crimson Tempest to consume all Ruptures on aoe targets.

I like the idea of crimson tempest spreading rupture - but would such an idea fit better into Subulety? Why not just Merg rupture and crimson tempest?

I would love if combat could use 2 handed sword or polearm sort of like a shadow ninja , theres even a ninja sword that has a blade hidden in the handle of the weapon , that u can activate it to be like a double bladed sword , that my friends is what we need for combat !

I get the idea, I loved using a pole arm in assassins creed 2, and I get the idea of being a master or arms / use anything at your disposal type and improvise type of character.

But, it doesn't work in wow due to itemisation. Too much of our damage comes from auto attacks and poisons for it to be viable, too many classes are also competing for pole arms, and then there are the logistic problems of sneaking and stealthing around with an 8ft long stick.

[Deleted]

If you feel like you are using Rupture just for VW and that makes it boring, my suggestion is to get an addon that would consolidate your Rupture and VW damage. There, is it more fun to use Rupture now?

I would rather they changed the energy regeneration mechanics of assassinations. Bake something like venom rush into assassinations, add a way to spread poison, change vendetta. My intention is not to drop rupture from the rotation - keep it in on venomous wounds for all I care, just want to see a way that rewards and encourages poison multi dotting.

[LilSaihah]

Poison Vial would be cool, but so is CT.

Maybe swap DFA with Poison Vial. Last I checked, DFA doesn't jive with Envenom too well.

[Thrasherr]

Make the Feint talent passive through a glyph.