Changing up the rogue class

[Deleted]

Make the Feint talent passive through a glyph.

Please, no : no more "passive" talent when we are complaining about Vendetta and Slice and Dice. Activating things at the correct moment is much better.
I highly miss the Vanish Immune trick, which was so much fun before CoS ! XD
I also highly miss the old Blade Flurry : a 2 min CD ability + 20% attack speed and hitting another target. The current version is brainless and boring, a band aid for the poor DPS this spec produces as a consequence of an extremly poor design.
Here is the other band aid without which Combat would be plain garbage : http://www.wowhead.com/spell=61329/vitality +50% Attack Power ! Can you imagine this !?!! And still trash DPS on single target !
Do you really think all these passive contributions to DPS are good design ? And I do not even mention auto-attack and Main Gauche !

Rogues need more active abilities : our actions need to have much more impact on our DPS.

[Deleted]

Make the Feint talent passive through a glyph.

Please no. This is an example of a lazy bandage to fix a mechanics of a limping class. This is simply a flat damage reduction to incoming damage. I hate having to use feint for this reasons and think that it is poor design.

Feint used to be something you hit to counteract AOE. It had its place, it was somewhat fun and rewarded good use. Before that, it's original design was to lower threat - during times when threat mattered in TBC and Vanilla and that was the original design. The game has progressed since then and so has feints original purpose. These sort of abilities are holding back the rogue class from having more exciting and new abilities to counteract incoming damage. I doubt that anyone one would really miss feint beyond its nostalgia and flat the damage reduction it provides.

[Naiattavain]

I only use assassination and subtlety on my character; I like to rp so ive found some useful truth rppvp.

i make hasty combo points so that my eviscerate' have greater priority; in my rotation priority. though using backstab and hemorrhage, alternating is best.

i think that the rogue class should have a greater spam? time for combo builders this way you can make a fast eviscerate regardless of the shadow dance and others have. class needs to feel resourceful. what i like to see improve is outside of stealth fighting energy costs. less for builders but therir damage never exceeds ambushes damage with the 40 energy cost on ambush still. any stealth should cost 40. garrote costs 45 but the damage on garrote needs to be around 86,000 damage over 18 seconds. providing a decent opener against a caster or hunter. btw hunters are pretty strong against rogues, especially when hunter is played well.

the rotation would look like this (no shadow dance buddha palm here)

alternating between backstab and hemorrhage-- hemorrhage 24 energy costs and backstabs is 28 energy.

100/100 energy
+10 energy ever second--

-24 energy and 28 energy would be 48 energy costed on 48/100 energy

two seconds; to cast these two abilities yields 20 energy from regenerate over time.

factoring in this at the end 48+20 = 68; 68/100

lets just say i casted this again

68/100 energy

-24 hemorrhage
-28 backstab

= 16 energy left 16/100

now lets add the energy from re-gen plus twenty = 36/100.

making a change as this would control how the player feels; the player wouldnt feel at the bottom of the totem poll because feeling slightly resourceful makes us think that we have the power of the sword though rogues are given daggers. during combat boost would make it seem fair and balanced along with everyone else's class' damage specs.

now thats my input; if there be dragons reading this only seems practical to me. its doesnt translate to this "OH MY GOD THE POWER" Jeffar scene from aladdin ending.

ive also been kicked from dungeon groups that tell me my damage is crap! when i look at my addon telling me im #1 in damage. this treatment is a bunch of bullshit. its happens to me quite a lot and this is very annoying. so i say fuck pve and go back to pvp. the pvp balanced is the #1 because pvp is funner than pve on rogue.

[Immunize]

-snip-

I feel your pain bro...

[Lucistius]

I know it'll never happen but I think it'd be cool to see Combat redesigned as a tanking spec. Given the lore associated with the Combat spec, it would flow well into an avoidance type tank like the Brewmaster. The main damage mitigation could come from dodge and feint could be retuned for Combat (much like Pally abilities that are spec dependent) to be more in line with the definition of the word. Something like "The rogue feints an attack, causing the target to attack the spot where the rogue was suppose to be. Dodge chance is increased by 100% for the next X attacks, decreasing by XX% with each attack until reaching the rogue's normal dodge rating." I think it could add flavor to our class and give us more desirability in raiding guilds.

[Deleted]

I only use assassination and subtlety on my character; I like to rp so ive found some useful truth rppvp.

i make hasty combo points so that my eviscerate' have greater priority; in my rotation priority. though using backstab and hemorrhage, alternating is best.

i think that the rogue class should have a greater spam? time for combo builders this way you can make a fast eviscerate regardless of the shadow dance and others have. class needs to feel resourceful. what i like to see improve is outside of stealth fighting energy costs. less for builders but therir damage never exceeds ambushes damage with the 40 energy cost on ambush still. any stealth should cost 40. garrote costs 45 but the damage on garrote needs to be around 86,000 damage over 18 seconds. providing a decent opener against a caster or hunter. btw hunters are pretty strong against rogues, especially when hunter is played well.

the rotation would look like this (no shadow dance buddha palm here)

alternating between backstab and hemorrhage-- hemorrhage 24 energy costs and backstabs is 28 energy.

100/100 energy
+10 energy ever second--

-24 energy and 28 energy would be 48 energy costed on 48/100 energy

two seconds; to cast these two abilities yields 20 energy from regenerate over time.

factoring in this at the end 48+20 = 68; 68/100

lets just say i casted this again

68/100 energy

-24 hemorrhage
-28 backstab

= 16 energy left 16/100

now lets add the energy from re-gen plus twenty = 36/100.

making a change as this would control how the player feels; the player wouldnt feel at the bottom of the totem poll because feeling slightly resourceful makes us think that we have the power of the sword though rogues are given daggers. during combat boost would make it seem fair and balanced along with everyone else's class' damage specs.

now thats my input; if there be dragons reading this only seems practical to me. its doesnt translate to this "OH MY GOD THE POWER" Jeffar scene from aladdin ending.

ive also been kicked from dungeon groups that tell me my damage is crap! when i look at my addon telling me im #1 in damage. this treatment is a bunch of bullshit. its happens to me quite a lot and this is very annoying. so i say fuck pve and go back to pvp. the pvp balanced is the #1 because pvp is funner than pve on rogue.

See I might sound really picky, but I don't like to see energy values readjusted without reason, I consider it a bandage approach.

I would rather they got to the root of the problem, and fixed energy regeneration. Or, perhaps, re-evaluate the synergy between combo points and energy.

For example, i'd love to see finishers taken off the global cool and given their own cool down (similar to the warrior heroic strike/cleave treatment) and perhaps remove the energy cost for finishers all together. That way finishers can feel more like a bonus or unique deadly flair for rogues, instead of just another damage dealing ability that combo points are spent on.

There once was a time when rogues were feared for their ability to bring control - something which all classes now possess, but their was also a time when they were glass cannons and could actually be a pin point accurate DPS class. To me, rogues don't really feel like that any more. They don't have to do more damage that other classes, but being able to actually pick and stay on target should be a strong trait for rogues.

[Deleted]

Not gonna lie, I would actually be pretty excited with one of the 3 specs becoming a Tank one

Dreamydreamy

[Deleted]

Not gonna lie, I would actually be pretty excited with one of the 3 specs becoming a Tank one

Dreamydreamy

Hey we're all entitled to our own ideas. Not going to shoot you down because I have my own crazy ideas too, most of which are totally inappropriate.

I can't see how they would make a rogue tank work. By all means go ahead and suggest how. They'd need some form of mitigation, threat generation, and armour increase, but gear isn't necessarily a problem. Even then I'd rather see shaman tanks that rogue tanks. It just doesn't seem to flow that well with the idea of stealthy sneaky guy being all come at me bro. Even if it was based around dodging attacks, it can't dodge everything, which is essentially how dodge capped tank rogues worked in tbc for a few patches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR7nz6jpuHQ

I mean, maybe, you could get away with a glyph of evasion that increase threat generation and armour whilst active. That's about as much as i'd want to see, so you can have a last resort "o damn we might wipe but, let me try tank this shit for a few seconds" button. But as for it being the main role, eh, I can't see it happening.


Now for my crazy idea that would never make it in to wow - I love the idea of a shadow or fire rogue. A rogue that sets fire to his weapons, burns the fuck out of everyone, then vanished from sight. Or a rogue that starts flinging instant shadow bolt finishing moves whilst fucking shit up with shadow magic in melee range. NOT a caster, but a melee range, shadow damage user. Think of it as melee demo lock/rogue hybrid but without the dots.

[shade3891]

Not gonna lie, I would actually be pretty excited with one of the 3 specs becoming a Tank one

I would like to see combat changed into a Warden "mode" or added as a 4th spec. But i also like to see new 4th spec as a ranged dps spec...



Example: i know its OP as hell, just an example

Warden Stance
You take on an defensive role reducing the chance the Rogue will be critically hit by 6%, and reduces the chance for your attacks to be parried by 50%.
When standing still you fade into the shadows, moving breaks this effect. Also greatly increases your threat generation.
(Passive & replaces Stealth)

Blinking Strike
You blink to your target dealing a viciously strike also provoking the target.
Can not be dodged or parried. Awards 1 combo points. Cooldown 6 seconds.
(Replaces Ambush)

Shadow Strike
You strike with enormous speed at the target dealing damage and applying your Lethal poison, also leaving an "Afterimage" behind that lasts for 2 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.

Any direct damage that would be dealt to you is taken by an "Afterimage" instead and the "Afterimage" fades.
Afterimages are untargetable & invulnerable. (Replaces Sinister Strike)

Blade Flurry
You Passively hit all targets within 8 yards for 30% damage.
(Passive & replaces Slice & Dice)

Avatar of Vengeance
You become invulnerable to all damage for X seconds, every time you take direct damage while Avatar of Vengeance is active your agility increases by 8% for 10 seconds. Duration increased by 1 second for per combo point.
(Replaces Eviscerate)

Passive Aura: Spirits of Vengeance, If Avatar of Vengeance is active: Shadow strike also summons an Invulnerable Spirit of Vengeance that last for 10 seconds

Feint
Perform an evasive maneuver, reducing damage taken from area-of-effect attacks by 50% and all damage taken by X% for 5 sec.
(increased by agility)

Mastery: Lightning Reflexes
Whenever a "Afterimage" fades because of an attack you gain 60% dodge + (mastery) for 2 seconds.

Recuperate:
A finishing move that restores 1% of maximum health every 1 sec. Lasts longer per combo point.
Activating Recuperate a second time while one is active you instantly gain health equal to the remaining time.

True Sight: You passively reveal everything invisible, stealth or hidden within 30 yards.
(Generates no threat, mostly flavor skill)

[Deleted]

Recuperate:
A finishing move that restores 1% of maximum health every 1 sec. Lasts longer per combo point.
Activating Recuperate a second time while one is active you instantly gain health equal to the remaining time.[/U]

I like this idea. But then again I also would like for an option to opt out of recuperate and replace it with a passive. Sometimes as straight forward as recuperate is now passive and you gain 1% health per second including during combat would be amazing. I'd choose that feint, just because I hate feint, and think of all the fun you could have healing in stealth.

[Deleted]

Not gonna lie, I would actually be pretty excited with one of the 3 specs becoming a Tank one

Dreamydreamy

How would you impliment a tank spec for rogues? Sounds as if it would be very similar to brewmasters, but it's probably possible.

[Deleted]

Not gonna lie, I would actually be pretty excited with one of the 3 specs becoming a Tank one

Dreamydreamy

I fully agree with you and I would say either Combat or Sub should be turned into a tanking spec.

I remember Naxx 60 in which Sub was king against Rasuvious with its double evasion (thanks to the Preparation talent) between add switching to tank Razuvius. In BC (http://calculators.iradei.eu/talents/rogue.htm), clever rogues even managed to build a tanking spec that was amazing against Sharazz... 100% dodge with the Ghostly Strike talent... The Cheat Death talent to survive randomness... Then the rogue dodge was nerfed to the ground with WotLK... :'(

As to me Combat is maybe a better candidate as its current design is a disaster with stupid Bandit Guile that is fighting Nemesis and its CD reduction part, energy caping at high level which is fixed by a stupidly expensive energy cost for SS that turns the spec into the slowest of the game at low level, the use of a dagger in main hand on cleaves that is against SS and RvS optimization and so on and so on... At level 60, the Combat tree contained defensive talents (http://rpgworld.altervista.org/class...lent/rogue.php : +5% dodge, +5% parry and Riposte on successful parry). Later, it contained talents that increased armor or reduced damage taken. Fighting toe to toe is the essence of the Combat spec, it was menssioned several times even by Blues... Tanking is exactly that.

However, having Assassination improved with all the bleed and dagger abilities from Sub, having Combat getting all the CD and ignore armour abilities from Sub and replacing Sub with a completely new tanking spec based on both dodge and parry usable with any weapons could be quite exciting !
EDIT :
- daggers : Assassination DPS + Tanking
- slow weapons : combat DPS + Tanking
No more pure tax for rogues, NICE !

[Deleted]

I fully agree with you and I would say either Combat or Sub should be turned into a tanking spec.
......
However, having Assassination improved with all the bleed and dagger abilities from Sub, having Combat getting all the CD and ignore armour abilities from Sub and replacing Sub with a completely new tanking spec based on both dodge and parry usable with any weapons could be quite exciting !

You mean to say that you would like our only engaging spec to be removed and worked into snoozination?

That would be pretty silly.

[fylth]

anyone remember when daggers, swords, maces, and axes each had their own 'flavor'? ahh yeah.. mace sub spec stuns in BC.. I miss that hahaa

I also miss Ghostly Strike

[Deleted]

anyone remember when daggers, swords, maces, and axes each had their own 'flavor'? ahh yeah.. mace sub spec stuns in BC.. I miss that hahaa

I also miss Ghostly Strike

Yeah. I really do miss the old talent trees. So much better than the idiot proofing we have now. I really enjoyed picking up a talent each level, aiming to get anew ability, and messing around with things like harp, coldstep, overkill/shadowstep/blade flurry builds, gimping yourself by stacking seal date with hat, but you can't have any of that now.

I actually started a new thread in general about old talents. Seems 60%-70% of people are unhappy with the current system, the remaining 30-40% either never experienced it or only care about dps, performance, output, and convenience - which is the kind of attitude that is killing the game imo. I don't want to pick a talent just for it's dps, that is the exact same problem as boring passives,

I want to pick a talent because it looks and feels awesome to use. There has to be that emotional connection and lore to excite a player - and this is why people miss abilities like ghostly strike and riposte - they imagine their character becoming some sort of matrix dodger or pirate dueler. An ability like mutilate wouldn't be anywhere near as fun if it was just called stab and had no graphics.

[Wayne25uk]

Cleaves mandatory for combat would be awful,especially when soloing old raids for achievements when you need to single target.

[Deleted]

Cleaves mandatory for combat would be awful,especially when soloing old raids for achievements when you need to single target.

You can turn if off again, there's just no penalty for keeping it on. Much like the existing blade flurry, or righteous fury.

Part of me would prefer a shorter cool down on the old style blade flurry with +attack speed though, just to make it a short DPS cooldown, even if it was reduced by restless blades again (not sure if it was during wotlk) and had a 30-45 second cool down or shared a cool down with kidney shot.

[Deleted]

Yeah. I really do miss the old talent trees. So much better than the idiot proofing we have now. I really enjoyed picking up a talent each level, aiming to get anew ability, and messing around with things like harp, coldstep, overkill/shadowstep/blade flurry builds, gimping yourself by stacking seal date with hat, but you can't have any of that now.

I actually started a new thread in general about old talents. Seems 60%-70% of people are unhappy with the current system, the remaining 30-40% either never experienced it or only care about dps, performance, output, and convenience - which is the kind of attitude that is killing the game imo. I don't want to pick a talent just for it's dps, that is the exact same problem as boring passives,

I want to pick a talent because it looks and feels awesome to use. There has to be that emotional connection and lore to excite a player - and this is why people miss abilities like ghostly strike and riposte - they imagine their character becoming some sort of matrix dodger or pirate dueler. An ability like mutilate wouldn't be anywhere near as fun if it was just called stab and had no graphics.

Exactly this ! I fully agree with your statement ! I deeply miss the old talent tree mechanism ! I was spending so much time trying to sorte out my points to try a new build

[Deleted]

*snip*

Ive helped u a bit...

Assassinations
Flavour: Heavy poison damage.
Balances: Only they have lethal poisons.
Speciality: single target

Combat
Flavour: Tough Veteran brawler (like the scarred guy in a bar!)
Balances: Only they have access to one-hand swords, maces, axes.
Speciality: cleaving

Subtlety
Flavour: Stealth ninja
Balances: stealth.
Speciality: mobility and burst

[Spiral Mage]

Pretty happy with Assassination. They made all the right calls there, no changes needed.
Sub .. I like the person who suggested finishers sometimes letting them enter Stealth but maybe more like, gain it as a temporary buff not an instant thing because insta-stealth broken on the next offensive action would be awkward to use. Make it something akin to a kind of Shadow Dance, where they gain stealth for a few seconds (enough time for 2 abilities maybe).
Combat needs major help, insanely boring to play. It needs Rupture to be back and be meaningful, to help break up the repetition of the game play which is even worse now. Also need a proc (sadly, like Dispatch but it can't just be the same proc because if it was, then well .. it'd be just that, the same, and Combat would need their own unique and exciting to mash proc) , and for Bandit's Guile to actually interact with how we play, not just be a coming and going buff we tend to just give up on keeping track of.