Poll: Do you (as an American) think you're getting enough out of your taxes?

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is nonsense.

    1> If they go overseas, they now have to ship their products back to the USA, as well as completely reworking their materials sourcing and trade arrangements, not to mention ensuring that their new host country has people sufficiently educated to replace those American workers. While these aren't impossible, they're not "we can fuck off to anywhere" easy, either.

    2> Tariffs are a thing. If the USA really wanted to take a stand against this, they can easily implement strong tariffs that more than offset any potential savings. Sure, the company can just refuse to sell to the USA, but if the USA is its prime market, then they're either going to go bankrupt, or massively scale down their operations. Giving up most of your business because you want to insist on slightly higher profit margins isn't just bad business, it's blatantly stupid. Tariffs aren't being used because American jobs are, more or less, just fine. The USA is shifting, like most of the Western world, from a service economy into a knowledge economy. Complaining about the loss of manufacturing jobs is really not the smoking gun you think it is.

    3> Plenty of nations have higher corporate tax rates than the USA, and yet still have corporations and businesses based there. As would be obvious, if you bothered to check. Which pretty much means your entire claim here is complete bunk.
    Yes, because it's stopped other companies from doing that. I understand you're going to say look at the paper. Always look at the paper. Then I point to reality, and for some weird reason it just doesn't sink in. You always resort to pointing at the paper and the definition of things on how they look on paper.

    Communism and socialism looks phenomenal on paper. Then you take a look at Venezuela, Greece, Spain, and Italy or COmmunist Countries, like Russia, China, and Cuba. That's reality. You're wanting to take us to that reality.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    Yes, because it's stopped other companies from doing that. I understand you're going to say look at the paper. Always look at the paper. Then I point to reality, and for some weird reason it just doesn't sink in. You always resort to pointing at the paper and the definition of things on how they look on paper.

    Communism and socialism looks phenomenal on paper. Then you take a look at Venezuela, Greece, Spain, and Italy or COmmunist Countries, like Russia, China, and Cuba. That's reality. You're wanting to take us to that reality.
    You mean totalitarian regimes?

  3. #23
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    Yes, because it's stopped other companies from doing that. I understand you're going to say look at the paper. Always look at the paper. Then I point to reality, and for some weird reason it just doesn't sink in. You always resort to pointing at the paper and the definition of things on how they look on paper.
    What "paper"? I'm literally pointing at reality, which clearly does not function the way you think. If it did, all corporations would be based in the countries with the lowest corporate tax rates. That's obviously not true, because your fundamental premise is nonsense.

    Communism and socialism looks phenomenal on paper. Then you take a look at Venezuela, Greece, Spain, and Italy or COmmunist Countries, like Russia, China, and Cuba. That's reality. You're wanting to take us to that reality.
    I wasn't even talking about socialism. If you're going to pick that windmill to tilt at, however, I'm going to point at Canada and Norway and Sweden and so forth, which are doing just dandy, thanks.

    Also, Russia is not in any way communist. It isn't 1982 any more.

    And you probably don't want me to cherry-pick the underperforming capitalist nations of the world. Because that list is likely even more horrendous than the nations you're trying to condemn.

    And that's without mentioning your conflation of economic systems with totalitarianism, which is the real villain of nations like Cuba and Venezuela.
    Last edited by Endus; 2015-05-11 at 05:32 AM.


  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by taliey View Post
    A distinct narrative is going to arise from this thread - we want more services from the government, all while paying less for them.

    Talk about having it both ways.
    To be fair, no government isn't as efficient as it could be.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What "paper"? I'm literally pointing at reality, which clearly does not function the way you think. If it did, all corporations would be based in the countries with the lowest corporate tax rates. That's obviously not true, because your fundamental premise is nonsense.



    I wasn't even talking about socialism. If you're going to pick that windmill to tilt at, however, I'm going to point at Canada and Norway and Sweden and so forth, which are doing just dandy, thanks.

    Also, Russia is not in any way communist. It isn't 1982 any more.

    And you probably don't want me to cherry-pick the underperforming capitalist nations of the world. Because that list is likely even more horrendous than the nations you're trying to condemn.

    And that's without mentioning your conflation of economic systems with totalitarianism, which is the real villain of nations like Cuba and Venezuela.
    Sweden almost collasped due to communism in the 90's. You're stuck in the past.

    Putin is bringing back Communism or is at least trying to. Read the news. He thinks it's a wonderful idea.

    Totalitarianism is the only way to make Socialism, and Communism work. They go hand in hand. Just pick up a history book.

    As for paper, i'm meaning figuratively not literally. The definition of how something is suppose to work on paper, but it's not how it looks or works in the real world. It's like this video I put in another link.

    http://www.youtube.com/v/fxCSy7tpUME...layer_embedded
    Last edited by Deathcries; 2015-05-11 at 05:37 AM.

  6. #26
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is nonsense.

    1> If they go overseas, they now have to ship their products back to the USA, as well as completely reworking their materials sourcing and trade arrangements, not to mention ensuring that their new host country has people sufficiently educated to replace those American workers. While these aren't impossible, they're not "we can fuck off to anywhere" easy, either.

    2> Tariffs are a thing. If the USA really wanted to take a stand against this, they can easily implement strong tariffs that more than offset any potential savings. Sure, the company can just refuse to sell to the USA, but if the USA is its prime market, then they're either going to go bankrupt, or massively scale down their operations. Giving up most of your business because you want to insist on slightly higher profit margins isn't just bad business, it's blatantly stupid. Tariffs aren't being used because American jobs are, more or less, just fine. The USA is shifting, like most of the Western world, from a service economy into a knowledge economy. Complaining about the loss of manufacturing jobs is really not the smoking gun you think it is.

    3> Plenty of nations have higher corporate tax rates than the USA, and yet still have corporations and businesses based there. As would be obvious, if you bothered to check. Which pretty much means your entire claim here is complete bunk.
    Tariffs tend to be frowned upon by the WTO.

  7. #27
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    So long as we maintain the most powerful military, taxes are well spent.
    yep gotta keep stockpiling those tanks and planes for the coming war with china. fuck healthcare, education,infrastructure or anything resembling first world country perks when we can have useless military parades like north korea to stroke our fragile ego so we can invade third world countries in africa and the middle east and south america to make ourselves feel better am i right kellhound? kellhound you do not disappoint.

    why am i not surprised the usual right wing posters are making their rounds in here? posting the same old tired disproven lines spouted by the gop and other pundits.
    Last edited by breadisfunny; 2015-05-11 at 05:42 AM.
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  8. #28
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    Sweden almost collasped due to communism in the 90's. You're stuck in the past.
    That's both completely wrong (communism was not in any way involved in the 1990s economic crisis in Sweden), and completely irrelevant, since I was talking about modern Sweden, not 25 years ago.

    Putin is bringing back Communism. Read the news. He thinks it's a wonderful idea.
    Also irrelevant; Russia is a capitalist country, today. I'm not interested in entertaining your fantasies about where it might be in the future.

    Totalitarianism is the only way to make Socialism, and Communism work. They go hand in hand. Just pick up a history book.
    I have. You're completely and utterly wrong. Canada is not totalitarian. Neither are the Nordic countries.

    Your entire argument makes as much sense as me pointing at the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and saying "See! Democracy requires totalitarianism!" A cursory glance at the real world clearly demonstrates how ridiculous a claim that is. As such a cursory glance proves how ridiculous your claims are.

    The entire Western world operates on some form of a mixed economy. The "mix" is between capitalist and socialist principles. Socialism isn't some great evil. It isn't the Cold War again. Commies are not hiding under your bed.
    Last edited by Endus; 2015-05-11 at 05:42 AM.


  9. #29
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    Sweden almost collasped due to communism in the 90's. You're stuck in the past.

    Putin is bringing back Communism or is at least trying to. Read the news. He thinks it's a wonderful idea.
    I don't think you understand what the word 'communism' means. Sweden is arguably more capitalist than the US - it just also has a much higher tax rate, and a much better social safety net.
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by BellaSwoosh View Post
    I dunno man. I see the people demanding the rich pay more in taxes but what is 50% after a shit ton of tax breaks and loopholes? Also, what about capital gains?

    Long story short, I see people (all over) demanding stuff that sounds sexy and makes a good campaign speech but actually amounts to no change at all. If we need the revenue, just stop the tax breaks man. 100% of a 35% tax rate is more than 10% of a 50% tax rate.
    A student of tax policy over several decades will notice that we oscillate between two situations:

    1. High tax rates with many loopholes.
    2. Low tax rates with few loopholes.

    This is because the SANE position is to be business-friendly to grow the economy. Unfortunately, the voters don't always understand this. Sometimes a politician can win an election by pushing for more taxes in a spat of class warfare. But then they quietly turn around and include loopholes so that they don't destroy the economy completely with tax hikes. The media usually plays along by not reporting the new loopholes.

    Sometimes a politician can get elected by pledging to close tax loopholes. And they play class warfare promising to soak the rich. But then they quietly pass a tax cut along with closing the loopholes. The tax cut usually doesn't get reported by the media.

    Its a bit of a shell game. Make the public think "the man" the getting punished, but keep the economy moving.

    This has been going on for the entire 20th century and into the 21st now.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Tariffs tend to be frowned upon by the WTO.
    What?

    There is not a single country on the planet that does not use tariffs specifically (in addition to an array of other tools) to control their balance of foreign trade.

    The WTO's current work is the Doha Agenda - and while it is interested in reducing trade barriers (of which tariffs can be one), tariffs are a tertiary concern. Tariffs are a fact of global economics. Even if in the distant future we reached global economic equilibrium - we might still use tariffs to create regional stability. They will never go away.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    I don't think you understand what the word 'communism' means. Sweden is arguably more capitalist than the US - it just also has a much higher tax rate, and a much better social safety net.
    Sweden benefits from free military service from the US. When there is a problem in the European sphere, like perhaps Milosevic in the 1990s or Russia today, they know they can rely on the US military securing their future. If the US didn't exist, you can bet Sweden would be slashing social services and pouring enormous amounts of cash into their military budget now to try to guard against Russian aggression. But instead they can relax, maybe bump their defense budget slightly, no worries.

    Sweden doesn't have a realistic government model. They are subsidized.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    A student of tax policy over several decades will notice that we oscillate between two situations:

    1. High tax rates with many loopholes.
    2. Low tax rates with few loopholes.

    This is because the SANE position is to be business-friendly to grow the economy. Unfortunately, the voters don't always understand this. Sometimes a politician can win an election by pushing for more taxes in a spat of class warfare. But then they quietly turn around and include loopholes so that they don't destroy the economy completely with tax hikes. The media usually plays along by not reporting the new loopholes.

    Sometimes a politician can get elected by pledging to close tax loopholes. And they play class warfare promising to soak the rich. But then they quietly pass a tax cut along with closing the loopholes. The tax cut usually doesn't get reported by the media.

    Its a bit of a shell game. Make the public think "the man" the getting punished, but keep the economy moving.

    This has been going on for the entire 20th century and into the 21st now.
    Yeah, I can imagine as much. I noticed this when I started mentioning such things and people seem to "not hear". When a public figure mentions the same, they suddenly get ignored too. It really is some kind of scheme and it is crazy when you see it for what it is.

    I tend to feel like the big dogs running the show are all in cahoots with one another. They play their shell game and the public eats it up.

  14. #34
    I would like to see business and the top .5% pay more in taxes one way or another, and that income invested in infrastructure, education, renewable energy and science. We could probably trim the military budget by getting rid of pork barrel projects (I dunno if this is the correct term for what I am thinking of).
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
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  15. #35
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    I would like to see business and the top .5% pay more in taxes one way or another, and that income invested in infrastructure, education, renewable energy and science. We could probably trim the military budget by getting rid of pork barrel projects (I dunno if this is the correct term for what I am thinking of).
    sir we need that military to show the world who's the alpha country around here!
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    The poll question is not relevant to our situation. Neither are the bolded questions in the OP.

    To be brief, the US currently needs both tax and regulation cuts for businesses.

    The long version:

    The current situation in the US is that class warfare has propelled Barack Obama into the White House. The media and the democrats are on a full assault to blame our problems on the wealthy or the business sector. This is not solving anything. Instead, it is dealing tremendous damage to the economy. Businesses have pulled in their horns. They are not being aggressive with expanding and hiring. Instead, they sit on their cash. This has led to a pitifully weak "recovery" where the labor participation rate has plummeted. The data is rigged to benefit the democrats and Obama, by omitting long-term unemployed from the numbers.

    Class warfare must end for a recovery to take place.

    We as a society must repudiate basically everything Obama stands for to get the economy moving again. We need to reframe the debate as the people and business working together to grow the economy. And that means cutting taxes for business. That means cutting regulations for business. And they need to be DEEPER than what is required because this is about rebuilding trust. We need to show the business sector that we are serious about rejecting Obama, class warfare, and blaming businesses for our problems.

    We did this before, in the late 70s and early 80s, under Carter and Reagan. We spent the 60s and most of the 70s blaming the business sector and punishing the business sector, and it led to a great economic malaise. We repudiated that idea and embraced the business sector. And that led to to a 20 year boom.

    We have forgot the lessons of the 60s and 70s and must relearn them, hopefully not the hard way. Class warfare sucks. Blaming the business sector sucks. Get over it. Unless Generation Y wants to wind up in their 40s with no career, they need to do some serious soul-searching about what they believe. But maybe it will be up to Generation Z to clean up the mess. Maybe Gen Y is just a write-off.
    So what you're saying is that the business leaders have had their fee-fees hurt and we have to all collectively suck some dicks if we want them to shower us with economic goodness?

    Also "real employment data" Bingo. I'll take the hello kitty notepad please.

  17. #37
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    So what you're saying is that the business leaders have had their fee-fees hurt and we have to all collectively suck some dicks if we want them to shower us with economic goodness?
    did you really expect anything else from him?
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    sir we need that military to show the world who's the alpha country around here!
    I am not asking for major cuts (though we do spend a lot more than the next top 3 combined), I think we should examine situations when more tanks are made than were requested, fighter planes that don't work but we spend butt-loads of money on them.

    I also found this video, seems to fit the topic at hand well.

    http://www.upworthy.com/using-lego-b...equality?c=bl3
    Last edited by Anevers; 2015-05-11 at 06:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Those damn liberal colleges! Can you believe they brainwash people into thinking murder is wrong! And don't get me started with all that critical thinking bullshit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    I'm being trickled on from above. Wait that's not money.

  19. #39
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    I am not asking for major cuts (though we do spend a lot more than the next top 3 combined), I think we should examine situations when more tanks are made than were requested, fighter planes that don't work but we spend butt-loads of money on them.

    I also found this video, seems to fit the topic at hand well.
    https://youtu.be/7fgtE-AJs-A
    http://www.upworthy.com/using-lego-b...equality?c=bl3
    those planes are needed otherwise china will beat us in military spending we can't have that!
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  20. #40
    "class warfare" is honestly a solid contender for the most asinine talking point ever.

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