Please Explain This to Me RE: Gear/Power Level/Raids

[Jujudrood]

I keep seeing this argument all over the place, in some fashion or another, that boils down to:
"I want better gear so my character's power level can progress, but I do not want to raid to get it"
I would like a solid explanation of it because I cannot piece one together through the myriad comments that are pro/con regarding this thought.

Now, I can kind of understand where people are coming from, sort of, but what I don't understand is this: what does that gear do for you, if not used for raiding?

(Maybe goes without saying, but this isn't accounting for PVP, which has its own progression path and is probably the only thing that's good about PVP right now…)

Maybe I'm just way off, but if you get, for argument's sake, full 630 heroic gear, then what do you need better gear for, if not for raiding?
The solo content available doesn't require anything greater, nor does heroic dungeons (since you've already got full heroic gear anyway), so why the fuss for raid gear when you don't want to raid?
The game has had a progression of gear since day 1, where you get a certain amount of blues to be regarded as powerful enough to raid to get the purples, which are then used for that raid and the next tier of raiding to get better purples, and so on until new expansion, then it's greens/blues/purples all over again, going from raid tier to raid tier at the end.
If you take away the raid tier progression out of this by openly and willingly not raiding, then why the demand for better gear?
As far as you (as in, the person who does not want to raid) is concerned, you have finished your goals; You have reached the power level that you willingly try for and is deemed suitable for the content in which you partake.
They have added many other features that allow you to get some better gear (crafting, follower missions, etc) that are above the content you play, yet you still want more without putting it to use in any meaningful way?
Yet there seems to be this outcry that the biggest and bestest gear should be made available to those who do not wish to play the game as it is intended, earning it through that style of play.

Maybe it's a different argument altogether, where it's basically boiling down to people who pay to play a game that's simply not suited for them?
If you don't want to do the large-scale raids on which the primary progression of the game is focused, then maybe you would be better off playing something else more tailored to a solo-play mindset.

What am I missing, here?
If you are a person who despises raiding and feels you should still have the opportunity to get the best gear in the game, please explain why, aside from the pointless argument of "I pay the same each month as you"?

PS I am no longer a "hardcore raider", so this is coming from a person who doesn't mind a little foray into Normal modes, with Heroic hopes some day, or in other words, a "casual", who is completely fine with whatever gear I get.

[raps]

I have never heard or seen anyone stating that they want the best gear in the game, but do not want to raid for it. I think you're interpreting people who like and use LFR that they want that to be where the best gear comes from. If someone is trying to make that argument, they're probably trolling you. Nobody can think an that mythic raiders should get the same gear as heroic, normal, or LFR raiders. I am sure there are people out there who would want some alternative gearing methods, which blizzard has tried with things like crafting, valor, apexis, garrisons, and many other things to varying degrees of success. The last 2 expansions have had legendary quests that fill that role for everyone. People can get a quality piece of gear through a long storyline at all difficulty levels.

The core of this game is end game raiding. Everything else is a side game (pvp), or just filler to give you something to do between raiding. If someone feels strongly that it is unfair that the best gear is from doing organised weekly raiding, then they should consider a different game. There is a vast array of games that would interest them, WoW just isn't one of them.

[Vaerys]

Maybe I'm just way off, but if you get, for argument's sake, full 630 heroic gear, then what do you need better gear for, if not for raiding? The solo content available doesn't require anything greater, nor does heroic dungeons (since you've already got full heroic gear anyway), so why the fuss for raid gear when you don't want to raid?

To more thoroughly dominate the things you don't need raid gear to defeat.
Or to make every single thing a faceroll requiring little skill.
Or just to see the numbers go up.

Or a general disagreement with the design of the game in which the best gear is associated with raiding. Maybe they feel the best gear should come from PVP. Or crafting. Or challenge modes. Or whatever.

[Ryythe]

I keep seeing this argument all over the place, in some fashion or another, that boils down to:
"I want better gear so my character's power level can progress, but I do not want to raid to get it"
I would like a solid explanation of it because I cannot piece one together through the myriad comments that are pro/con regarding this thought.

Now, I can kind of understand where people are coming from, sort of, but what I don't understand is this: what does that gear do for you, if not used for raiding?

(Maybe goes without saying, but this isn't accounting for PVP, which has its own progression path and is probably the only thing that's good about PVP right now…)

Maybe I'm just way off, but if you get, for argument's sake, full 630 heroic gear, then what do you need better gear for, if not for raiding?
The solo content available doesn't require anything greater, nor does heroic dungeons (since you've already got full heroic gear anyway), so why the fuss for raid gear when you don't want to raid?
The game has had a progression of gear since day 1, where you get a certain amount of blues to be regarded as powerful enough to raid to get the purples, which are then used for that raid and the next tier of raiding to get better purples, and so on until new expansion, then it's greens/blues/purples all over again, going from raid tier to raid tier at the end.
If you take away the raid tier progression out of this by openly and willingly not raiding, then why the demand for better gear?
As far as you (as in, the person who does not want to raid) is concerned, you have finished your goals; You have reached the power level that you willingly try for and is deemed suitable for the content in which you partake.
They have added many other features that allow you to get some better gear (crafting, follower missions, etc) that are above the content you play, yet you still want more without putting it to use in any meaningful way?
Yet there seems to be this outcry that the biggest and bestest gear should be made available to those who do not wish to play the game as it is intended, earning it through that style of play.

Maybe it's a different argument altogether, where it's basically boiling down to people who pay to play a game that's simply not suited for them?
If you don't want to do the large-scale raids on which the primary progression of the game is focused, then maybe you would be better off playing something else more tailored to a solo-play mindset.

What am I missing, here?
If you are a person who despises raiding and feels you should still have the opportunity to get the best gear in the game, please explain why, aside from the pointless argument of "I pay the same each month as you"?

PS I am no longer a "hardcore raider", so this is coming from a person who doesn't mind a little foray into Normal modes, with Heroic hopes some day, or in other words, a "casual", who is completely fine with whatever gear I get.

The issue at hand here is easy to explain why you don't need something and you basically understand the concept of it. But the thing is, at the end of the day, Blizzard is here to make money. Stepping on the toes of people who actually run the content that the gear was intended to be used for is a small price to pay to appease the masses of casual players who would potentially stop subscribing without that chance at the same gear as "the big guys". Personally I could care less if they have access to the same gear I do to be perfectly honest no matter how much I don't think they need it. It just isn't worth the fight and loss in subs imo that would bring about.

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I have never heard or seen anyone stating that they want the best gear in the game, but do not want to raid for it. I think you're interpreting people who like and use LFR that they want that to be where the best gear comes from. If someone is trying to make that argument, they're probably trolling you. Nobody can think an that mythic raiders should get the same gear as heroic, normal, or LFR raiders. I am sure there are people out there who would want some alternative gearing methods, which blizzard has tried with things like crafting, valor, apexis, garrisons, and many other things to varying degrees of success. The last 2 expansions have had legendary quests that fill that role for everyone. People can get a quality piece of gear through a long storyline at all difficulty levels.

The core of this game is end game raiding. Everything else is a side game (pvp), or just filler to give you something to do between raiding. If someone feels strongly that it is unfair that the best gear is from doing organised weekly raiding, then they should consider a different game. There is a vast array of games that would interest them, WoW just isn't one of them.

It is actually pretty common that people believe they deserve the same loot as a raider without raiding. Just because they pay for the game and no matter how they decide to play it they should also have access to it.

[Sunnydee]

I think it more comes down to that "i dont want to do 3 weeks of old raids, waste thousands of gold on repair and enchants in a pug only too be able to play in the current tier".

[Nexii]

LFR players want to see the content, I don't think they want perfect gear (well most).

As far as gear and progression, raid gear was only ever useful to progress further in raids. With LFR existing you can see all the raid bosses as soon as you have the minimum ilvl to queue in. I'd say in the past there was more incentive to get raid gear. For one, Heroic dungeons were much more difficult. Gear made it easier to carry undergeared friends, both in dungeons and raids. Secondly, farming by killing mobs was more prevalent before Garrisons. Higher DPS = higher killrate = more gold per hour farmed. Lastly, raid gear could be used in PvP more. It wasn't always best in slot but it was very powerful. So overall there is less incentive to get gear from raiding now if it isn't your primary focus.

[Jujudrood]

I think it more comes down to that "i dont want to do 3 weeks of old raids, waste thousands of gold on repair and enchants in a pug only too be able to play in the current tier".

This is a valid argument for raiders either coming in late or switching to an alt for whatever purpose (bored with current class, raid needs heals/tanks/dps of some flavor, etc), but for those who don't raid, it's weird to me.
They want the gear, the titles, the mounts, but they do not want to put in the time and effort to actually play the game.
I am a fan of catch-up gearing methods for this purpose, and I don't mind people using it for other purposes as they see fit, but the mindset of getting the current gear without the playing the current content is what gets me.
Maybe I am confusing this mindset with the LFR mindset of "give me the best gear because I completed LFR".
These forums are all over the place these days.

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I have never heard or seen anyone stating that they want the best gear in the game, but do not want to raid for it. I think you're interpreting people who like and use LFR that they want that to be where the best gear comes from. If someone is trying to make that argument, they're probably trolling you. Nobody can think an that mythic raiders should get the same gear as heroic, normal, or LFR raiders. I am sure there are people out there who would want some alternative gearing methods, which blizzard has tried with things like crafting, valor, apexis, garrisons, and many other things to varying degrees of success. The last 2 expansions have had legendary quests that fill that role for everyone. People can get a quality piece of gear through a long storyline at all difficulty levels.

The core of this game is end game raiding. Everything else is a side game (pvp), or just filler to give you something to do between raiding. If someone feels strongly that it is unfair that the best gear is from doing organised weekly raiding, then they should consider a different game. There is a vast array of games that would interest them, WoW just isn't one of them.

Your sentiments here are pretty much mine.
The game is made a certain way and, over the years, they've deviated from that path in such ways that things are relatively easier to obtain.
Maybe it's a minority outcry to make it even that much more easier, which in turn would ruin the only polished thing left (being raids) for the sake of a few who either don't have the desire or don't have the time to actually play the game.

[Faerwen]

I don't necessarily think that the people you are talking about in your argument are looking for "the best raid gear" or to even be comparable to the top end raiders, but rather a definable, consistent progression path for their characters. This game is an MMORPG, wherein the goal is to grow in strength and experience, and while of course, logically, if you do not plan on doing higher end raid content you do not need higher end raid gear, the issue lies in the fact that baring pvp, the only feasible source of character progression comes from these raids, although we have a lot of minor supplemental content (apexis, crafting, boe). Everyone wants to feel as though there is some progression for their character that can be attainable via their preferred style of play, but those varying avenues of progression do not exist. I personally do raid, although have temporarily halted my aspirations for Mythic content (only 3/10 M) due to the difficulty of managing a 20-man after having run a tight knit 10-man for 3 years, so the gear progression for e exists, but I know many who find themselves with little to do if they do not wish to commit to a schedule.

Now, I will not pretend to know exactly what Blizzard can do to provide varying forms of character progression, but what I do know is that removing alternative forms of non-combat based progression, such as the various ways reputation used to be obtainable (dungeons, farming, dailies, turn-ins) in favor of classic genocidal farming, or farmable profession progression that rewarded time spent in lieu of an extremely gated CD based material system (I know now there are ways to bypass the system, but it is still a far cry form the old model), was not the way to go.

While I still play, and enjoy the game when I do, I can see people's frustrations all around, and much of it seems to stem from a lack of ways to progress your own character. The raid gear argument is not always some entitled player who feels their hour spent is worth the same as a mythic raider's 10, but is just a byproduct of a dated system with the only measurable progression lying in an aspect of the game that is only preferred by a relatively small fraction of the still massive player base.

[Slootd]

I think it more comes down to that "i dont want to do 3 weeks of old raids, waste thousands of gold on repair and enchants in a pug only too be able to play in the current tier".

The "pussyfication" of "raiders" at work here. 3 weeks of playing the game spending (not wasting) gold on enchants that aren't mandatory in any way shape or form to do old content, and if you're spending that much gold on repairs then pick better pugs. It takes maybe 1 weeks worth of Heroics/LFR/"Old raids" to get to a level of gear where you can do current content. Granted that content will be on normal, then heroic, etc...but that's the natural progression. Just a few weeks ago my DK hit 100 and within a week from heroics, LFR, and a single highmaul run he was 667 which is perfectly viable for normal BRF.

[kamuimac]

"I want better gear so my character's power level can progress, but I do not want to raid to get it"
.

you answered your all questions with this sentence - people play rpgs because they want their avatars/chars to get stronger - in most game its done by obtaining better gear - then moment they feel that they no longer have any activities that avard them that gear they stop playing

it is never about best gear - its about steady power growth over weeks - if its not delivered people stop playing rpg the moment there is no place for more power growth for them.

[Glorious Leader]

you answered your all questions with this sentence - people play rpgs because they want their avatars/chars to get stronger - in most game its done by obtaining better gear - then moment they feel that they no longer have any activities that avard them that gear they stop playing

it is never about best gear - its about stead power growth over weeks - if its not delivered people stop playing rpg the moment there is no place for more power growth for them.

I'll further add that this is all relative. You don't feel your character has grown in power if you've still got all that raid gear ahead of yo.

It's not about need and never has been. Tmmrw they could remove the gear from the game and then just scale your character to whatever they felt was an appropriate level to challenege you. No raisers just like everybody else in this game desires the gear because it's fun to see your avatar get stronger. This is very basic to rpgs. Now currently raiding has an enormous monopoly on this whereas before the same gear was offered through collecting valor. Notice same gear because once again power gain is all relative. The system in Wotlk worked best and I'll never understand why they moved a war from it except for the fact that people were opting out of raiding.


It's never been about need. Never ever ever. Thus need argument is obnoxious. I didn't need the gear in D2. I don't need it in destiny. In fact most rpgs you don't actually need the gear the content is so easy anyway. I still went back and blew up baal even though it was a joke cause I want whatever he had. Was it cause baal was challenging? Or I was gearing up for some.next lvl challenege? Nope and nope. It was just about acquiring more power. If the appeal of the game lies in making a person feel stronger through their avatar then denying them access to this feeling fundamentally robs them of the vauenof the game. Their is no good reason for this.

[Jujudrood]

I don't necessarily think that the people you are talking about in your argument are looking for "the best raid gear" or to even be comparable to the top end raiders, but rather a definable, consistent progression path for their characters. This game is an MMORPG, wherein the goal is to grow in strength and experience, and while of course, logically, if you do not plan on doing higher end raid content you do not need higher end raid gear, the issue lies in the fact that baring pvp, the only feasible source of character progression comes from these raids, although we have a lot of minor supplemental content (apexis, crafting, boe). Everyone wants to feel as though there is some progression for their character that can be attainable via their preferred style of play, but those varying avenues of progression do not exist. I personally do raid, although have temporarily halted my aspirations for Mythic content (only 3/10 M) due to the difficulty of managing a 20-man after having run a tight knit 10-man for 3 years, so the gear progression for e exists, but I know many who find themselves with little to do if they do not wish to commit to a schedule.

Now, I will not pretend to know exactly what Blizzard can do to provide varying forms of character progression, but what I do know is that removing alternative forms of non-combat based progression, such as the various ways reputation used to be obtainable (dungeons, farming, dailies, turn-ins) in favor of classic genocidal farming, or farmable profession progression that rewarded time spent in lieu of an extremely gated CD based material system (I know now there are ways to bypass the system, but it is still a far cry form the old model), was not the way to go.

While I still play, and enjoy the game when I do, I can see people's frustrations all around, and much of it seems to stem from a lack of ways to progress your own character. The raid gear argument is not always some entitled player who feels their hour spent is worth the same as a mythic raider's 10, but is just a byproduct of a dated system with the only measurable progression lying in an aspect of the game that is only preferred by a relatively small fraction of the still massive player base.

I agree they may not want top of the line, but the character progression, past leveling, is meant to be dungeons/raids/more raids.
That's why I feel WoW isn't for these people, who continue to play and cry out that gear needs to come from single player faculties.
If that's the case, GW2 or something is more tuned for that, or just some single player games on consoles/PC would be more their speed (most of which are not pay2play, which is an added bonus).

My point, which was probably lost in that wall of text, is that people don't want to do one thing, but want equivalent rewards from that one thing for doing another thing.
Maybe Mythic dungeons will help ease that as there is a need for only 5 people, but it's still not that solo content that people crave so badly.
Thing is, WoW isn't a solo game. Not entirely.
Questing is solo (or group), pet battles is solo (or 1v1), professions are solo, treasures and rares are solo, but these are essentially afterthoughts the farther the list goes because the main focus of the MMO is the be, you know, massively multiplayer.

PS I'm all for adding things so long as they don't detract from others. For example, if they made some form of single player heroic dungeon, scenario-style, that awarded better gear than 5-mans, I wouldn't bat an eye. Great. Just don't detract from the quality of content where the actual focus of the story and gameplay goes (read: raiding).

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I'll further add that this is all relative. You don't feel your character has grown in power if you've still got all that raid gear ahead of yo.

It's not about need and never has been. Tmmrw they could remove the gear from the game and then just scale your character to whatever they felt was an appropriate level to challenege you. No raisers just like everybody else in this game desires the gear because it's fun to see your avatar get stronger. This is very basic to rpgs. Now currently raiding has an enormous monopoly on this whereas before the same gear was offered through collecting valor. Notice same gear because once again power gain is all relative. The system in Wotlk worked best and I'll never understand why they left except for the fact that people were opting out of raiding.

I agree with both of you, that's why I feel this game might not be for them.
I liked the Valor system well enough and wish they did the Apexis method in the same vein (as opposed to offering a smaller size of options that are harder/more annoying to obtain).

And for the raiders who play for the challenge, for the fun of the game, or because they enjoy it, that's what it's about.
Gaining in power, tackling new stuff, it's all the reward-to-bigger-reward type of progression.
My main confusion is over the people who don't want to do that stuff, yet still want the rewards linked to that stuff.
It seems there are more than a small handful with this type of thinking.
It's more of "what do you want to do with that gear, if not for using it for its intended purpose (read: tackling newer/more challenging content).

[Glorious Leader]

Because that's arbitrary. At one point tier pieces were awarded through valor. If they went back to it tmmrw would it still matter that I didn't want to do "stuff"? (I.e raid). Furthermore nowhere on the gear does it list intended purpose:raid. Go back to D2. Once you hit hell theirs nothing more after that but people still farmed to increase player power. Look at it this way. The intended purpose of gear is not to accomplish raid feats. They can do that in other ways. The intended purpose of gear is to fulfill a psychological desire in the player to make his or herself feel stronger through their avatar. Once you deny people this because they don't like whatever activity you think is the tits you've denied them the value proposition in the game and ultimately the reason to play.

Players of all walks of life and content want the game to make them feel good about themselves. They don't necessarily want to have to raid to do that for a host of reasons. If raiding is the only source of gear and all the other sources simple.pale.in comparison the people who.opt out of raiding get less of the central value of the game. More stuff needs to award the same gear that's inside a raid. Especially the tier pieces and honestly I don't see the harm. This was the system we had in Wotlk and it was fine. I'll also add that the single raid mode of tbc was probably better for awarding people the value proposition. Multi difficulty raiding just sliced and segments people.into layers of content and ultimately they never feel like they've achieved much cause hey heroic is there and then mythic is there. That one is trickier. Gear back on the vendor they could do tmmrw. Multiple raid difficulties not sure they can unrjng that bell.


The question I have is why is it only in warcraft that players feel like they can tell other players what they need or don't? It's an incredible perverse phenomenon. I don't raid in destiny for example but if one day I can buy Gjallarhorn from xur (the best rocket launcher in the game from a vendor) I don't expect an army of people telling me "stop that entitled non raid casual!he doesn't need that loot!". You think that makes a compelling argument as to why people should be denied entertainment value? Why is this a wow exclusive thing where a handful of people feel full well within their rights to define what others need and don't need and furthermore think that this is a valid argument in favor of one mode of design over another? If tmmrw the developers removed the need for gear from raids would you accept that you didn't need the gear or would you be upset your experience was poorer?

[Deleted]

It's simple, people arent saying they want mythic level gear for doing nothing (yes a very small wierd minority are, but I'm pretty sure people like them about as much as hardcore elitists).

As others have said in this thread, WoW is a game were we have an avatar of ever increasing power, increasing that power and dressing that avatar up in nice looking loot and rewards is the whole carrot that WoWs playerbase turned to RPGs and MMOs for.

I'm a firm believe that the best and coolest gear should be from mythic raiding, along with mounts and titles.

However just below that should be mythic dungeons, in the truest sense of the word, not just scaled up numbers, but actual challanging dungeons.
And this progression path should have its own cosmetic rewards with titles and mounts and challange achivements.

Raiding, PvP and Dungeons/Scenarios (Seriously the scenario system wasnt a bad idea just not used to its fullest), if these three progression paths could exist side by side and provide relevant rewards to each of their own progression paths, then the game would see a new boom of players.

Another thing they really should start doing is to add max level zones with patches in the style of ToT, were the entire realm quests to progress the zone and effort of the factions within. This pleases the questers.

I really fail to see how no one at blizzard recognizes what they need to do in order to entice the playerbase they want, because if you've played this game and seen the highs and lows of its design choices, you can easily cherrypick which ones worked and which didnt.

[mysticx]

you answered your all questions with this sentence - people play rpgs because they want their avatars/chars to get stronger - in most game its done by obtaining better gear - then moment they feel that they no longer have any activities that avard them that gear they stop playing

it is never about best gear - its about steady power growth over weeks - if its not delivered people stop playing rpg the moment there is no place for more power growth for them.

This sums up my feelings too, all players want to get stronger as they keep playing, it's the big draw of RPGs, and the getting stronger does present itself in things that were hard getting easier, which is an additional reward (And exacting revenge on mobs that once gave you grief is so deliciously sweet), playing any game is to seek progression in it, and in this game it's through gear.

[Jujudrood]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.
It's nice to see this be discussed without the flame wars I see everywhere else.
Like I said somewhere else, I wouldn't mind at all if they give a solo progression option, so long as it doesn't hurt everything else.
Hopefully they do, so people stay subscribed, leading to more revenue and (hopefully) more quality content.

[Deleted]

I think it's fair enough for each player out there to frame his/her very own goals in the game. For some, that's to master the (current) content in the highest possible difficulty, for which gear obviously is the necessary evil. Others aspire having the best gear out there, for it's own sake. And that's okay as well! I think one shouldn't judge people for their preferred kind of playing the game. If you play the game for the first reason, why would you even bother having other players running around with the same gear as you? How does that limit you in the way you enjoy playing the game? If it actually does, I think that's some kind of malevolence and thus a really bad characteristic of your person.

Ever since WoW - and I can accept that - end content raiding awarded you with the best gear available in the game. But that's just how WoW works, maybe because it feels most rewarding to acquire the best gear via this path. Which doesn't necessarily mean that there couldn't be other ways to obtain this very gear. Why would it be a bad thing if other players favor other gameplay than raiding in a MMO. Extensive 2-5 player quest-chains that might take you weeks could be as rewarding as well, to mention but one.

So my conclusion to this is, accept how other people like to play the game. And if they like it most by collecting the best possible gear on the easiest possible way, that's okay! Since I myself consider gear only as the stuff I have to collect in order to enjoy the game the way I like it, I don't care with other people running around wearing the same stuff I do.

[Jujudrood]

I think it's fair enough for each player out there to frame his/her very own goals in the game. For some, that's to master the (current) content in the highest possible difficulty, for which gear obviously is the necessary evil. Others aspire having the best gear out there, for it's own sake. And that's okay as well! I think one shouldn't judge people for their preferred kind of playing the game. If you play the game for the first reason, why would you even bother having other players running around with the same gear as you? How does that limit you in the way you enjoy playing the game? If it actually does, I think that's some kind of malevolence and thus a really bad characteristic of your person.

Ever since WoW - and I can accept that - end content raiding awarded you with the best gear available in the game. But that's just how WoW works, maybe because it feels most rewarding to acquire the best gear via this path. Which doesn't necessarily mean that there couldn't be other ways to obtain this very gear. Why would it be a bad thing if other players favor other gameplay than raiding in a MMO. Extensive 2-5 player quest-chains that might take you weeks could be as rewarding as well, to mention but one.

So my conclusion to this is, accept how other people like to play the game. And if they like it most by collecting the best possible gear on the easiest possible way, that's okay! Since I myself consider gear only as the stuff I have to collect in order to enjoy the game the way I like it, I don't care with other people running around wearing the same stuff I do.

I feel you and agree. It doesn't bother me either way and I don't mind how people play because I play the way I play.
The thing about that that could bother me, however, is that by focusing on these alternates, it could take away from the overall raid quality and possibly take some people out of raids altogether because there is an 'easier' solution to getting the gear to improve their character.
I've always enjoyed the raid scenarios, where a group of people coordinate to conquer content. But once it's conquered, who would want to repeat it week after week when they've seen it? they would instead just do the simpler 'single-player scenarios' to get equal gear, thinning the members of your raid.
Maybe it's my cynical thinking that's been further tainted by the vocal minority who cry over everything.
I would just hate to see the one good thing about this game (raids) suffer to add these alternatives, changing the focus over to a single-player type game. If both can co-exist, great, but if not, I would personally choose raids to survive and be the place to get the high end gear.

[kamuimac]

I feel you and agree. It doesn't bother me either way and I don't mind how people play because I play the way I play.
The thing about that that could bother me, however, is that by focusing on these alternates, it could take away from the overall raid quality and possibly take some people out of raids altogether because there is an 'easier' solution to getting the gear to improve their character.
I've always enjoyed the raid scenarios, where a group of people coordinate to conquer content. But once it's conquered, who would want to repeat it week after week when they've seen it? they would instead just do the simpler 'single-player scenarios' to get equal gear, thinning the members of your raid.
Maybe it's my cynical thinking that's been further tainted by the vocal minority who cry over everything.
I would just hate to see the one good thing about this game (raids) suffer to add these alternatives, changing the focus over to a single-player type game. If both can co-exist, great, but if not, I would personally choose raids to survive and be the place to get the high end gear.

thing is that "easier " model worked very well for last what 7-8 years ye suddenly blizzard feels need to change something which never required changing in first place.

[MrTharne]

This sums up my feelings too, all players want to get stronger as they keep playing, it's the big draw of RPGs, and the getting stronger does present itself in things that were hard getting easier, which is an additional reward (And exacting revenge on mobs that once gave you grief is so deliciously sweet), playing any game is to seek progression in it, and in this game it's through gear.

But in RPGs, at least for me, when I'm done with the content I want to accomplish (for example defeating the last boss), I don't continue to seek better gear and that's because I don't need better gear to defeat previous enemies and there is nothing else ahead of me. If there are secret bosses who are stronger than the last but I don't want to do them, I just stay with my gear because I don't need any better.

I'm the kind of guy who just stays with the gear he has until he really needs to get an upgrade or nobody else needs it. Well in the end it comes down to each person views on the matter.