U.S. military proposes challenge to China Sea claims

[jordonus]

First sentence is wrong? Just go look at Wikipedia.

Absolutely. Let's take your Wikipedia link and look at exactly what happened in Afganistan.

The conflict is also known as the U.S. war in Afghanistan.[28][29] It followed the Afghan Civil War's 1996–2001 phase.

In 1996 the Taliban captured the Afghan capital Kabul and established the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The Islamic State of Afghanistan government remained the internationally recognized government of Afghanistan. The Taliban's Emirate received recognition only from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates. The defense minister of the Islamic State of Afghanistan, Ahmad Shah Massoud, created the United Front (Northern Alliance) in opposition to the Taliban.

The conflict was brutal. According the United Nations (UN), the Taliban, while trying to consolidate control over northern and western Afghanistan, committed systematic massacres against civilians. UN officials stated that there had been "15 massacres" between 1996 and 2001. The Taliban especially targeted the Shiite Hazaras.[55][56] In retaliation for the execution of 3,000 Taliban prisoners by Uzbek general Abdul Malik Pahlawan in 1997, the Taliban executed about 4,000 civilians after taking Mazar-i-Sharif in 1998.[57][58]

Ahmad Shah Massoud was the only leader of the United Front in Afghanistan. In the areas under his control, Massoud set up democratic institutions and signed the Women's Rights Declaration.[71] As a consequence, many civilians had fled to areas under his control.[72][73] In total, estimates range up to one million people fleeing the Taliban.[74]

In early 2001, Massoud, with other ethnic leaders, addressed the European Parliament in Brussels, asking the international community to provide humanitarian help to the people of Afghanistan.[74] He said that the Taliban and al-Qaeda had introduced "a very wrong perception of Islam" and that without the support of Pakistan and Osama bin Laden, the Taliban would not be able to sustain their military campaign for another year.[74] On this visit to Europe, he warned that his intelligence had gathered information about an imminent, large-scale attack on U.S. soil.[78]

Polls of Afghans displayed strong opposition to the Taliban and significant support of the U.S. military presence. However the idea of permanent U.S. military bases was not popular in 2005.[348]

According to a May 2009 BBC poll, 69% of Afghans surveyed thought it was at least mostly good that the U.S. military came in to remove the Taliban – a decrease from 87% of Afghans surveyed in 2005.

In other words: every single thing I said about the Afghan war was completely correct. The same goes for Iraq. Thank you for assisting me in proving my point.

[xuros]

Ohh... Right. So the Chinese navy is a threat to someone?

You just excluded yourself from chat in the rest of this topic with this post.....just WOW....

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Thats all in your head, really. The projection is there, but that doesn't mean a lot. Aircraft carrier groups are ridiculously easy target for a nation that can fight back.
Let me remind you you that you sink whole of them with weapons like the Chinese Y-12, YJ-18, Y-100 and the dreadful carrier killer DF-21D. In reality in case of an armed conflict carrier groups are priority nuke targets, but lets not go there, lets keep it conventional.

Also, let me remind you the recent naval war games where a french sub sunk a carrier and few of its escorts ALONE. Now, china has 66 subs, so you do the math.

I am pretty sure USA can't do shit near China. The carrier's is a weapon that should be afraid by nations that can't sink them. China has no problems like that.

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Not sure if you are reading the news or not.

lol he mentioned war games.

[TooMuch]

Absolutely. Let's take your Wikipedia link and look at exactly what happened in Afganistan.

In other words: every single thing I said about the Afghan war was completely correct. The same goes for Iraq. Thank you for assisting me in proving my point.

None of what you quote supports what you claimed, none of the quotes show that Afghanistan asked for MILITARY intervention by the US (they did ask the international community to provide humanitarian help to the people of Afghanistan).
Then linking quotes that reference to polls years later, doesn't support your claim either. This is the typical rewriting of history that we are getting used to.

-edit- and you accuse Ultima of posting irrelevant links, and not reading what he links. The usual hypocrisy shows!

[jordonus]

Where is the US in several African countries where even worse dictators are committing genocide?

The negative ignorant backlash largely based on misinformation/propaganda and perpetuated by individuals such as yourself in order to slander the US, largely a result of some kind of jealous anti-American hatred, has taught them that the best thing for their public image is to not help these poor countries and let them continue killing each other.

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None of what you quote supports what you claimed, none of the quotes show that Afghanistan asked for MILITARY intervention by the US (they did ask the international community to provide humanitarian help to the people of Afghanistan).
Then linking quotes that reference to polls years later, doesn't support your claim either.

They asked for help, they got it, they formed a coalition with the US, and they succeeded in achieving their goals. The overwhelming majority of the population living in Afghanistan supported this whole thing. You were simply wrong, too busy spouting buzzwords and parroting the propaganda you are spoon fed on RT. Just accept your mistake and move on.

[Deleted]

Show us an example of Russia or China engaging in the same behavior the US does? You could find some, but the difference in scale is amazing.

Some? I can find a lot.
But let me get this straight, just because Russia/China's invasions were smaller it makes them ok?
Last time I checked, the US never invaded with the intent of annexing parts of Iraq or forcing demographic changes on the region afterwards. And while the US soldiers are no saints and have had their fair share of sadism, russian soldiers take it to the extreme.
Tell you what, the day Russia and China call back all of their "peacekeepers" and "liberators" and stop threatening their neighbours, I'll start pointing the finger at the US exclusively.
Until then, I will never blindly accept those countries as the saints you make them out to be.

[TooMuch]

The negative ignorant backlash largely based on misinformation/propaganda and perpetuated by individuals such as yourself in order to slander the US, largely a result of some kind of jealous anti-American hatred, has taught them that the best thing for their public image is to not help these poor countries and let them continue killing each other.

Hahaha, so why is the US actively interfering in the Middle East? No backlash there? No problems for their public image. More bullshit here...

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They asked for help, they got it, they formed a coalition with the US, and they succeeded in achieving their goals. The overwhelming majority of the population living in Afghanistan supported this whole thing. You were simply wrong, too busy spouting buzzwords and parroting the propaganda you are spoon fed on RT. Just accept your mistake and move on.

Funny how you can't back up your claim, and then call somebody else WRONG while I 1) back up my claims and 2) show that the proof you supply is just bullshit and not even backing up what you say. Again, show me in the quotes that you posted is anything supporting your initial claim "Seeking justice in Afghanistan and clearing out the hornets nest at the request of the locals?". Only the seeking justice is true: but only justice for the US, not for the people living there.

[jordonus]

Some? I can find a lot.
But let me get this straight, just because Russia/China's invasions were smaller it makes them ok?
Last time I checked, the US never invaded with the intent of annexing parts of Iraq or forcing demographic changes on the region afterwards. And while the US soldiers are no saints and have had their fair share of sadism, russian soldiers take it to the extreme.

This guy is seriously just a quack. I'll be the first to agree that the cost for Iraq and Afghanistan were quite steep and they probably could have been handled better in terms of cleanup but the point is that both times the "warmongering invasions", to put it in terms that the RT parrots understand, were to remove sadistic dictators who were butchering thousands of their own people and both times it was with the majority support of the people living there.

[Independent voter]

You show the same stupidity most US posters do: if you criticize the US, you must be Russian or watch RT. Strange that the news sources considered most reliable are not from the US.

I don't think we're stupid.

When was the last time the US annexed a nation ala Russia in the Ukraine? Russia is acting like countries did 200 years ago. Wakeup it's 2015 not 1815.

[Ulmita]

Absolutely. Let's take your Wikipedia link and look at exactly what happened in Afganistan.
In other words: every single thing I said about the Afghan war was completely correct. The same goes for Iraq. Thank you for assisting me in proving my point.

I think you are misunderstanding some things here. We don't hate the states or it's people. We dislike the fact that the states is the #1 war waging nation on earth. This has nothing to do with you having a great economy, military etc, aka we are not jealous of you. This has to do about invading other countries on a regular basis and fucking them up. This has to do with going into conflicts with none asking you to do so in a CONSTANT basis, to assist the side YOU THINK should be assisted. This has to do with going into conflicts even when the international community told you NOT to. (UNSC and Kosovo). This has to do with getting remote controlled planes, going into foreign countries and bombing the fuck out of people, playing the JUDGE, the JURY and the EXECUTIONER from sitting on a chair some hundreds of miles away. This has to with kidnapping people you think they are bad and holding them in military bases around the world, without giving them a chance of a fair trial or even to defend themselves. This has to do with torturing those people. And the list goes on and one.

I am pretty sure you can now see why some of us peace - hippies have an issue with the USA external politics and are so caustic when we judge it.

I've said this a million times. If Russia or China, or India or <Insert Random Country Name Here> was doing the same things we would say the same exact thing about them. We would bitch in the same way, in the same language in the same manner about those nations as well. I personally have nothing against Americans, i just wish you could change stance and instead of being seeing as a bully you would play a more fundamental role in matters that are really important like research. Can you imagine what kind of "Hubble" would NASA send if your government gave them half of your military budget for just one year? Or how many researchers the American universities would sustain with half of 600 - 900 bln military budget?

[TooMuch]

Some? I can find a lot.
But let me get this straight, just because Russia/China's invasions were smaller it makes them ok?
Last time I checked, the US never invaded with the intent of annexing parts of Iraq or forcing demographic changes on the region afterwards. And while the US soldiers are no saints and have had their fair share of sadism, russian soldiers take it to the extreme.
Tell you what, the day Russia and China call back all of their "peacekeepers" and "liberators" and stop threatening their neighbours, I'll start pointing the finger at the US exclusively.
Until then, I will never blindly accept those countries as the saints you make them out to be.

Undead Puppy, your hatred for everything related to Russia and China is known. Where you go wrong is your assumption that when people call out the US for the crimes they commit, they automatically favor Russia or China. Just check the Putin thread and you will see that I have condemned many times the role of Russia in the Ukraine.

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This guy is seriously just a quack. I'll be the first to agree that the cost for Iraq and Afghanistan were quite steep and they probably could have been handled better in terms of cleanup but the point is that both times the "warmongering invasions", to put it in terms that the RT parrots understand, were to remove sadistic dictators who were butchering thousands of their own people and both times it was with the majority support of the people living there.

See, the rewriting of history already begins: both Afghanistan and Iraq had nothing to do with removing dictators. Both were revenge, nothing else. The repeated use of RT parrots and likewise wording shows that you don't have any argument left, just insults.

[Independent voter]

your hatred for everything related to Russia and China is known.

You say Americans are stupid. Who is America's biggest trading partner?

It's China.

When China claims Mongolia and Siberia who is the US going to support? A nation that's a minor irritant at best or the world's second largest economy?

[TooMuch]

I don't think we're stupid.

When was the last time the US annexed a nation ala Russia in the Ukraine? Russia is acting like countries did 200 years ago. Wakeup it's 2015 not 1815.

Ah, mandatory leases are no annexations. Even worse, they don't fall under the US constitution.

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You say Americans are stupid. Who is America's biggest trading partner?

It's China.

When China claims Mongolia and Siberia who is the US going to support? A nation that's a minor irritant at best or the world's second largest economy?

Show me where I said that?

[jordonus]

Hahaha, so why is the US actively interfering in the Middle East? No backlash there? No problems for their public image. More bullshit here...

They are not? They are lending minimal assistance to help deal with these groups like ISIS. Let's not forget that these people are becoming a direct problem for the US as well with the kidnapping and execution of Americans or the social media campaign to incite homegrown terrorists. Also, please note you said Africa, not Middle East. Most of these Middle Eastern countries have the money and resources to fix their problems.

Funny how you can't back up your claim

How have I not backed it up? Before the attacks in NYC even happened, the Afghanis were asking for help. The attack happened and, of course, the US would seek justice just like any other country. How else are you going to justify spending this much public money? This aligned perfectly with the needs of the Afghani people, which is why we formed a coalition with them and other western nations and took back their country for them while we hunted for Bin Laden and his co-conspirators. The mission was a success on both fronts and the Afghani people were in overwhelming support of the removal of the Taliban. Every single thing I have said was corroborated by your Wikipedia link.

and then call somebody else WRONG

That's because you are wrong. All you're doing now is trying to weasel your way out with word salad.

[TooMuch]

They are not? They are lending minimal assistance to help deal with these groups like ISIS. Let's not forget that these people are becoming a direct problem for the US as well with the kidnapping and execution of Americans or the social media campaign to incite homegrown terrorists. Also, please note you said Africa, not Middle East. Most of these Middle Eastern countries have the money and resources to fix their problems.

How have I not backed it up? Before the attacks in NYC even happened, the Afghanis were asking for help. The attack happened and, of course, the US would seek justice just like any other country. How else are you going to justify spending this much public money? This aligned perfectly with the needs of the Afghani people, which is why we formed a coalition with them and other western nations and took back their country for them while we hunted for Bin Laden and his co-conspirators. The mission was a success on both fronts and the Afghani people were in overwhelming support of the removal of the Taliban. Every single thing I have said was corroborated by your Wikipedia link.

That's because you are wrong. All you're doing now is trying to weasel your way out with word salad.

You didn't even prove me wrong, while I showed that the quotes you linked don't back up your claim. Nothing you claimed is being backed up by your quotes. Reread the article, reread your own claim. Nothing. Like shown, they asked the UN for HUMANITARIAN help...

Maybe reread you first paragraph and the reread what you replied to. Makes no sense at all. Minimal assistance, both bombing themselves as well as supplying munition that the majority of the world has abolished.

[jordonus]

while I showed that the quotes you linked don't back up your claim.

Oh wow, you did? Must have forgotten to press post reply.

[TooMuch]

Oh wow, you did? Must have forgotten to press post reply.

It must be the school of Rukentuts here: when you ask to back up a claim (Russia used Red Cross Convoys to smuggle soldiers into Ukraine), you get links to a lot of articles that show there are Russians in Ukraine. No link about the Red Cross being used to smuggle. I see the exact same happening here. Claims that are "validated" by quotes that are not even addressing the claim. Nowhere in the article it states the US is explicitly asked to use military intervention. Nowhere.

[Deleted]

Undead Puppy, your hatred for everything related to Russia and China is known. Where you go wrong is your assumption that when people call out the US for the crimes they commit, they automatically favor Russia or China. Just check the Putin thread and you will see that I have condemned many times the role of Russia in the Ukraine.

Yes, of course. Not wanting Russia and China to trample neighbouring countries makes me a hater. Guess I'll wear my hate badge with pride.

I want you to take a second and think what would happen if the US would completely stop all of its military activity right this second.
What will stop Russia from tearing into Eastern Europe or China from causing trouble in Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc. The answer is nothing.
The rest of the world might frown and wag their finger, but that's it. There would be NO REPERCUSSIONS for them to invade or oppress those countries into submission.

It must be the school of Rukentuts here: when you ask to back up a claim (Russia used Red Cross Convoys to smuggle soldiers into Ukraine), you get links to a lot of articles that show there are Russians in Ukraine. No link about the Red Cross being used to smuggle. I see the exact same happening here. Claims that are "validated" by quotes that are not even addressing the claim. Nowhere in the article it states the US is explicitly asked to use military intervention. Nowhere.

I could go the extra mile and ask for proof that Russia isn't smuggling weapons and supplies for separatists either. The truth is, it can't be verified, for now at least.

[jordonus]

You say Americans are stupid. Who is America's biggest trading partner?

It's China.

When China claims Mongolia and Siberia who is the US going to support? A nation that's a minor irritant at best or the world's second largest economy?

I'm fairly certain that it's still Canada for now but no doubt China will soon overtake just because of sheer size (~30 million vs. ~1.3 billion). Either way, I also think that there's a very high chance of their relationship breaking down at some point in the future. Russia is very poor right now and eventually China is going to realize that the arrangement is very one-sided.

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It must be the school of Rukentuts here: when you ask to back up a claim (Russia used Red Cross Convoys to smuggle soldiers into Ukraine), you get links to a lot of articles that show there are Russians in Ukraine. No link about the Red Cross being used to smuggle. I see the exact same happening here. Claims that are "validated" by quotes that are not even addressing the claim. Nowhere in the article it states the US is explicitly asked to use military intervention. Nowhere.

More word salad in an attempt to weasel your way out of being completely wrong. The Afghanis asked for help, it doesn't matter what kind because they got what the US was willing to give (the only country willing to spearhead this assistance), and they accepted it with open arms because they knew that this is exactly what they needed; "humanitarian aid" doesn't solve the problem of islamic dictators overthrowing your country and butchering your citizens. This is the reason why what little was left of the resistance accepted and formed a coalition with the allied forces, and why the support among the Afghani people for the whole operation was overwhelmingly positive.

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What will stop Russia from tearing into Eastern Europe or China from causing trouble in Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc. The answer is nothing.
The rest of the world might frown and wag their finger, but that's it. There would be NO REPERCUSSIONS for them to invade or oppress those countries into submission.

That's because most countries in the world only operate a token defense force. They simply join NATO or make some kind of other arrangements directly with the US and spend their extra money somewhere else with the expectation that the US will be there carriers and all should they ever be in trouble.

[Darsithis]

This thread is just pretty awful at this point. It turned away from discussing the issue at hand to a large argument among a select group of posters that was hardly on-topic or constructive.

Closing.