The RNG of warriors

[Deleted]

Hello!
I have a question regarding the rng of warriors. Im curently, and have been for whole wod so far, raiding as a ret pally. However the rng and all the proccs that was really fun up untill now are now abit annoying annoying, especially now when my raiding is more serious.

A warrior spot is now open and ive always liked playing them in the past, except in mop. I would jump right in if it werent that i just heard ppl complaining about dps warriors rng. Im guessing it has to do with enrage/SD proccs?

My question is, would rerolling this be a mistake? Would i have the same problem with warriors?

[Deleted]

Problem really relies on the rotation.
Basically, you have 3 attacks and 2 of them are procs... It doesn't feel any smooth or engaging at all, and on top of that, you have multiple CD's to manage, with all different timers. I mean it pretty much comes down to how you manage your CD's rather than how you manage you rotation.

To be fair, I don't think we can even call it rotation because of the random procs. It's a stupid gameplay really. You spam one single attack and hit your 2 other abilities when they proc (they both proc from that one single attack, lol?)... plus some serious CD management.

It should be the other way around => a neat and engaging rotation, with a very simple CD management. Again, it's really retarded.

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PS: sorry, I forgot about WW, which you use in AoE situations.

[sophos1]

I would say the only rng you would deal with as a warrior is hoping for procs when you use Recklessness. Most of the damage a warrior does on single target fights come from the pull and execute phase.

If you look at the top parses on any fight, they are getting 4-5 SD procs in their execute window on the pull. That is rare. More realistically, you will get one SD proc on the pull and not see another until a while after your damage buffs expire.

If you want to play a fury warrior in any kind of effective manner in a raid, the set bonuses are required to open up your rotation, otherwise you will have moments in your rotation where you are just waiting for BT to come back up. The T17 two piece prevents that to a degree. Also, with the T17 two piece, it's possible that you could spam Execute/Raging Blow every GCD for the entire Recklessness buff without needing to use BT.

[Minimite]

I don't have much experience with ret as far as high tier raiding goes, but I would imagine there is more RNG involved in warrior. You have the RNG of bloodthirst crits, sudden death execute procs, bloodsurge procs which kinda throw your rotation off, and then all the other usual suspects like your strings of crit or non-crit attacks lining up with recklessness, trinkets, execute phase, ect.

I think most classes suffer from RNG to some extent just based on Blizzard dick-riding proc based systems, but the other melee have more control over their resources via holy power, combo points or runes. I'm only 690 ilvl but it still seems like too often I've got no enrage, but tons of rage to dump... I have enrage and tons of procs to dump, but they don't crit or multistrike... or my trinkets and rings just proc'd and the boss is 30 seconds away from execute health

[Deleted]

Yeah i know rng is pretty much everywhere atm. Im not looking to escape it.

But as for ret with 4p, there is 4 proccs. 2 of which can procc off themselfs and eachother and both can procc the third. The fourth is almost useless untill 4p where it sometimes becomes very important, changing the priority/rotation alot especially during wings.

This was pretty fun at first but it has become tedious to manage the sometimes complete circus of proccs and sometimes absolutely nothing. Warriors only having 2 proccs and some control (berserker rage) might suit me better. But then being completely bound to proccs, as where on ret you still have a standard rotation behind all the proccs, can be frustrating i imagine. If that is the case?

[Crisius]

Yeah i know rng is pretty much everywhere atm. Im not looking to escape it.

But as for ret with 4p, there is 4 proccs. 2 of which can procc off themselfs and eachother and both can procc the third. The fourth is almost useless untill 4p where it sometimes becomes very important, changing the priority/rotation alot especially during wings.

This was pretty fun at first but it has become tedious to manage the sometimes complete circus of proccs and sometimes absolutely nothing. Warriors only having 2 proccs and some control (berserker rage) might suit me better. But then being completely bound to proccs, as where on ret you still have a standard rotation behind all the proccs, can be frustrating i imagine. If that is the case?

The randomness is basically the same between retribution and fury, but a warrior is more at the mercy of their procs than what a paladin is, yes. Whereas you still have crusader strike, judgement and exorcism to fill globals with outside of EDS and DP procs, a warrior is stuck twiddling his thumbs if his bloodthirst doesn't crit or have a bloodsurge tied to it. Add to that the fact that getting unlucky in a critical situation might completely break your damage on any given fight and you're looking at one frustrating experience.

If you are thinking about rerolling from paladin you should also consider defensive utility. While die by the sword is nice, and even niche, for some physical damage, divine protection by itself is far superior to the entire defensive arsenal of a warrior for magical damage. Add divine shield to that and you're looking at being viable for a lot more progress fights than what a warrior is in terms of survivability.

[Deleted]

The randomness is basically the same between retribution and fury, but a warrior is more at the mercy of their procs than what a paladin is, yes. Whereas you still have crusader strike, judgement and exorcism to fill globals with outside of EDS and DP procs, a warrior is stuck twiddling his thumbs if his bloodthirst doesn't crit or have a bloodsurge tied to it. Add to that the fact that getting unlucky in a critical situation might completely break your damage on any given fight and you're looking at one frustrating experience.

If you are thinking about rerolling from paladin you should also consider defensive utility. While die by the sword is nice, and even niche, for some physical damage, divine protection by itself is far superior to the entire defensive arsenal of a warrior for magical damage. Add divine shield to that and you're looking at being viable for a lot more progress fights than what a warrior is in terms of survivability.

Looking at your sig you seem to have both at roughly the same lvl, so you can make a fair comparison. You seem to think rerolling would just put me back in the same situation?
Assuming it would i guess i should also take numbers into account. Theres no denying warriors scale much harder than rets and the gap is almost certainly only going to increase. While i never rate numbers over enjoyment of playing the class, pulling high numbers is always extra satisfying. So while the pally has more utility, which has less value in our since we have enough pallys, the warrior will most likely put out higher numbers. And the mobility of the warrior is alot of fun when you can use it.
So if they suffer from the same problem (and its not like i hate ret at all) maybe the warrior wins with the numbers?

You also have a rogue, which is the other option i have. A non plate pure dps class would be realy cool and they look fun. Problem is at first glance sublety looks way too... fiddly? Not sure thats the right word but i hope you understand my meaning. Whats your input?

[Crisius]

I wouldn't be so sure in regards to the scaling for next tier. It all depends on how they keep the legendary ring, as retribution paladins will have a massive advantage pairing strong cooldowns with it if they keep the current design. It'll boil down to the singletarget damage of a paladin versus. the burst aoe potential a warrior has with bladestorm. I obviously can't tell the future; although advantages with cooldown-alignment just boils down to fact, which class is going to be higher on damage is only down to speculation until more numbers are done and the patch is closer to release.

In regards to mobility, warriors have an easier time covering big distances in short timeframes, or target swapping between two distant targets, while paladins can more easily keep up DPS on a target while its on the move, or if the tanks are stutter-moving the boss, through an arsenal of semi-ranged abilities and speed of light. It's a trade-off, and each class has more favorable mobility on different fights.

As for rogues, I had to gear mine for Blackhand, and as a result I've cleared mythic BRF on it a couple of times. Fiddly is a good description of subtlety. I really do not enjoy it personally.

Combat on the other hand is a lot of fun, although you're limited in terms of self-managing your DPS cooldowns with major burst phases. Since you are basically forced to use your DPS cooldowns just as they come up for optimal theoretical DPS, to not waste recharging through Ruthlessness and the 4-set, and you're kind of limited in terms of managing your Insight, Combat has the negative aspect of feeling like it's at the mercy of fights and external timers rather than you being in control of it. As a good example, if your Deep Insight (+50% damage with the Warlords perk) aligns with the adds on Thogar, very few classes have the potential to beat your output, while if you had no Insight whatsoever your damage on them would be drastically reduced. You can control this somewhat through using revealing strike instead of sinister strike as an energy dump if it's absolutely necessary, but doing so is a fairly substantial damage decrease. When it aligns it feels very satisfying, but when it doesn't it can be quite frustrating.

Rogues also have the benefit of having all the utility of the other melee classes combined. Feint combined with Elusiveness is massively overpowered and ensures you can basically bypass mechanics that requires other melee to either run away from the boss or simply be sat on an encounter. Good examples of this is Kilrogg Deadeye in HFC and Kromog and Blackhand in BRF. If you don't need Elusiveness, Cheat Death is excellent for progressing a fight with harsh one-shot mechanics, like H&F mythic. Add to that magic immunity, vanish, sprint and Shadowstep, and you're looking at a the most versatile melee class in the game by a long shot.

[Archimtiros]

Since there is already another thread discussing this (isn't that always the way?), I'm just going to copy-paste myself.

Not by far.

While Ret Paladins have a high amount of RNG, even more procs than Fury does, it's RNG isn't detrimental, it's actually pretty perfect.

First there is the matter of resource generation; for Ret it's completely controlled, while for Fury you are generating automatically through auto attacks. This gives the Fury Warrior less control and they have to manage their rage or they will cap over time, whereas the Ret Paladin will never cap if they don't use any of their generators. This comes into play with the second point, and that is the procs themselves.

Ret has a lot of procs and they can become overwhelming, there is no argument there, but they don't ever limit your gameplay because they don't negatively impact the rotation. No matter how many procs you get, there is no downside. If TV or DS keep proccing, you are just rolling in the free damage while your generators happily come off cooldown and pile up, waiting for you to use them. You could argue that you aren't able to use your generators, due to spamming your procs... but you frankly don't even need to, and even if you wanted to, your procs will sit there waiting for you to use them, with no real loss. Conversely, if Execute keeps on proccing, our Enrage starts running out, our Raging Blow charges wear off, our Rage starts stacking up, which is a problem because we probably want to spend another GCD to get Enrage up again before we spend it. If Bloodsurge keeps proccing, we have to spend extra GCDs on non-proc Wild Strikes when we should be using Raging Blow, ultimately causing us to either waste Rage, Raging Blow charges, or push back Bloodthirst (which ultimately wastes Raging Blow charges).

The complaint I've heard the most is that Ret damage is all too similar, the abilities all do around the same amount of damage, and I can understand that might not make it as exciting to play. However, in a proc based rotation, that is actually a very good thing. It essentially means that no matter what you are pressing, you are getting damage, and having one proc over another, or even no procs, assuming you are filling GCDs will end up with roughly the same amount of damage.

I've said many times that Ret is what Fury should have been in terms of "wild", proc based gameplay. It certainly feels furious.

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But as for ret with 4p, there is 4 proccs. 2 of which can procc off themselfs and eachother and both can procc the third. The fourth is almost useless untill 4p where it sometimes becomes very important, changing the priority/rotation alot especially during wings.

To address this specifically; the proper evaluation of procs shouldn't even be "how they change the rotation", while that is important, the real question should be "how does the rotation perform with varying degrees of procs?" Meaning: what happens when you have either too many or too few.

Ret's benefit is that with too many procs, it loses nothing. Holy Power will wait on you and generators will queue up. With too few procs, you've got enough of those abilities to rely on while you fish for more procs.

Fury's detriment is that with too many procs you are left with too much to do, and the conflicting nature of it's rotation takes over, namely Enrage uptime v Rage management v gated/timed abilities (RB wears off if you don't use it). Meanwhile if you have too few procs, you are left with nothing to do, having only Bloodthirst to fall back on.

[Faildevil]

It was me in the other topic with a similay question. I am getting sader the more I read :-P