Expansion Divergence (Post WoD)

[Darth-Piekus]

The thing is Moonblade is that those fanboys along with some fanboys of the other supposed hero who got electrocuted are responsible for damaging the story with their constant crying and bitching because they want war in a game that already has enough war and the funny thing is that most of them didn't even knew warcraft existed before Cataclysm and they do not read the quests. They are just powerleveling their way to max level in order to go into battlegrounds and count who has the largest sword if you know what I mean. The funny thing is that when the tables turn they don't like that.

[Arrashi]

I think that would be a wonderful thing. Forums full of ragequitting Forsaken players QQing that they no longer get impenetrable plot armour which makes them feel badass for playing a wrist-cutting corpse.

That's still better than playing oversexualized grape

+ You guys forget that making sylvanas a villain would be misogynistic. + She is in minority (as undead elf among forsaken) and in minority (as undead among the living). So much oppression against those who see themselves as living-kin.

I would vastly prefer expansion fully focused on alliance villain. Like anduin killing, raping and eating varian and becoming sodomy king of alliance. Then he would make leaders of alliance his bitches (in very S/M way), and estabilish his hedonistic kingdom of debauchery. Now that would be breath of fresh air into lore.

[Jaspias]

That's still better than playing oversexualized grape

+ You guys forget that making sylvanas a villain would be misogynistic. + She is in minority (as undead elf among forsaken) and in minority (as undead among the living). So much oppression against those who see themselves as living-kin.

I would vastly prefer expansion fully focused on alliance villain. Like anduin killing, raping and eating varian and becoming sodomy king of alliance. Then he would make leaders of alliance his bitches (in very S/M way), and estabilish his hedonistic kingdom of debauchery. Now that would be breath of fresh air into lore.

I think I read a fanfic like that...
Anyway, if the Alliance has a major villian it will either be Muradin (most likely) or Jaina (slightly less) Tirion and Bolvar are also likely candidates, but are no longer directly tied to the alliance, and I don't trust Crowley. He clearly has some sort of mystic powers to cleave with his fists, only Saurfang has greater cleaving prowess and he's friggen SAURFANG!

[Talen]

What do you guys think? Personally, I would love to see an expansion centering around Sylvanas and focusing on cleansing Lordaeron. Blizzard really likes to use characters that were established in Warcraft III as antagonists (Illidan, Arthas, Kil'Jaeden, Archimonde, etc.) and Sylvanas is right up there with them. Plus, it would be nice to have an expansion that didn't focus on something to do with Orcs or the Burning Legion.

Sylvanas is a story that needs to be told.

BUT - there is only so far Blizzard can go. Lordaeron, for example, can't really be cleansed. The Forsaken need to stay around as a player faction.

At the same time, such a story would offer huge potential to close off or advance various storylines, provide some much needed development and character growth for the Forsaken, help deal with the issues created by Sylvanas and progress stories involving the Alliance, BElfs, Orcs and Trolls and the relationships between them.

**IF** it were done right.

EJL

[Darth-Piekus]

As Talen said if they have the will to do it right Blizzard has a way to get out of the corner they are now with the Forsaken.

[Talen]

Sylvanas should NOT be a villain. She walks the line between good and evil.

No - she doesn't. She's evil through and through. She already IS a villain. Azeroths Dr. Evil.

It would be a complete waste to simply have her succumb to any evil nature within her. They built up a lot of nice lore for Sylvanas and the most disappointing thing would be for her to simply end up a generic baddie. Not only that, but at this point it would feel like a rehash of the Garrosh storyline. We already had a faction leader succumb to evil.

It's too late for that. She's been given lore, she's been given development and she's quite interesting as Azerothian characters go...but in many ways, she is a typical 2D bad guy with no real potential for redemption and her story really doesn't have much in the way of potential for further development.

I know there are players who want her to remain - but the question is where does she go from here? She can't be redeemed. She's evil already and her actions SHOULD see the Alliance steamroller her given their current superpower status.

Sylvanas is a villain. She's been written and portrayed as one for the past ten years.....more than that since her career as bad guy started in TFT. And in games...the players tend to take down the bad guy. Sylvanas really needed to be taken in a different direction...but she wasn't. She definitely shouldn't die....but she IS a villain, and that story needs to be dealt with somehow.

EJL

[bmjclark]

There's supposed to be 5 old gods isn't there? Probably a safe assumption we'll see the 5th at some point if that's the case.

[Talen]

Those were originally supposed to be in content patches. But Blizzard decided to cut them.

Farahlon and the Isle of the Ogres, IIRC. There was also that Sri Lanka style island off Arak.

We might get one of them as a TI style stetting for 6.3....players want Farahlon, but we're essentially talking a full sized zone (i.e. Netherstorm) or yet another divergence from the MU (hey guys...Farahlon is much smaller in **THIS** reality!!). BRF has been open 4 months soon, will likely be pushing 5 by the time 6.2 is released and if Blizzard hope to release the next XPac in Q2 for the movie tie in, there won't be time for a third tier. So a 6.3...perhaps around December or January...with some form of content to tide us over until May or June 2016 seems likely.

Sylvanas loves her people.

No, she doesn't. She sees them as tools. As shields. She cares for them as a warrior might care for his sword and she isn't going to squander their lives. But at the same time, she'll think nothing about sacrificing them if she gets what she wanrts. Even Garrosh cared about the Orcs.

She has no desire for world domination

The Blizzard should stop those NPCs telling us that is what her goal and theirs is.

so why worry about whether or not the Forsaken die out? Her hate of Arthas was stronger than her loyalty, true, so she would throw her entire kingdom at him in order to kill him, but now that there is no Arthas for her to hate, she is likely wanting to secure Lordaeron so the Forsaken can go back to the search for their cure.

They have a cure. Death.

Now - if you are talking about bringing them back to life - well, resurrection exists on Azeroth....but it is rare and difficult. Even for one person.

Resurrecting hundreds? Thousands? There is no cure...there can only be release. Nor do the Forsaken appear to be looking for one. Their work is on perfecting their version of the plague.

EJL

[Deleted]

I want to see an ethereal based expansion.

Imagine if they became the antagonists? Like a rogue sector of them wanting Azeroth for themselves. Could be cool.

[Notshauna]

No - she doesn't. She's evil through and through. She already IS a villain. Azeroths Dr. Evil.

It's too late for that. She's been given lore, she's been given development and she's quite interesting as Azerothian characters go...but in many ways, she is a typical 2D bad guy with no real potential for redemption and her story really doesn't have much in the way of potential for further development.

I know there are players who want her to remain - but the question is where does she go from here? She can't be redeemed. She's evil already and her actions SHOULD see the Alliance steamroller her given their current superpower status.

Sylvanas is a villain. She's been written and portrayed as one for the past ten years.....more than that since her career as bad guy started in TFT. And in games...the players tend to take down the bad guy. Sylvanas really needed to be taken in a different direction...but she wasn't. She definitely shouldn't die....but she IS a villain, and that story needs to be dealt with somehow.

Sylvanas has always been cold, but a villain, that's a long shot. She does care, as she is willing to make sub-optimal decisions in order to protect the Forsaken. Numerous examples of this occur, especially in the zones as a Horde player, and there is still some humanity in her yet. She'll never be a hero, but she isn't completely gone, there is still some of the original Sylvanas. Compared to the relative hug boxes of the Alliance leaders barring Moira, it's not suprising she's considered villainous (makes me miss the real Tyrande not the declawed version we have in game).

[Cl4nK]

Sylvanas has always been cold, but a villain, that's a long shot. She does care, as she is willing to make sub-optimal decisions in order to protect the Forsaken

She tries to protect the Forsaken because as she said, they are her shield against the final death. She knows what will happen to her once she dies, and she is terrified of that. To think that she genuinely cares about the forsaken is to be extremely naive

[Darth-Piekus]

Sylvannas cares so much as is the supposed Free will of the Forsaken. A total lie for the fanboys to chew. And here is why.

First she ressurects corpses of the dead people of Lordaeron from Warcraft 3 meaning that she pulls the souls of those who died a long time ago from Heaven or Hell without asking.Then she plays with their emotions as those that died are still under pain probably at the time of their death and she uses them to lash out against those that are still living in Lordaeron.Then once they come to their senses they have a choice. Join us or you can go wander anywhere you want I don't care. Of course most of them would join as they will be seen as monsters from the rest of the World and they didn't ask for it. There has never been any Free will in that.

Free will and Protection of the Forsaken are two words that fanboys use as propaganda since they are unable to counter any arguements with Real facts.

[Arrashi]

"I didn't play as much as first 5 levels of forsaken experience, but who cares i have my fanfic".

What a story mark.

[Jaspias]

Sylvannas cares so much as is the supposed Free will of the Forsaken. A total lie for the fanboys to chew. And here is why.

First she ressurects corpses of the dead people of Lordaeron from Warcraft 3 meaning that she pulls the souls of those who died a long time ago from Heaven or Hell without asking.Then she plays with their emotions as those that died are still under pain probably at the time of their death and she uses them to lash out against those that are still living in Lordaeron.Then once they come to their senses they have a choice. Join us or you can go wander anywhere you want I don't care. Of course most of them would join as they will be seen as monsters from the rest of the World and they didn't ask for it. There has never been any Free will in that.

Free will and Protection of the Forsaken are two words that fanboys use as propaganda since they are unable to counter any arguements with Real facts.

If the new Forsaken like being dead better, they get to go right back. Sylvanas died in her short story but decided undeath was a better alternative, there are some people she is HELPING by bringing people from that hell. She is raising the old dead of Lordaeron in order to reclaim Lordaeron, and after the Forsaken have complete controll of Lordaeron (everything north of the Thandol Span and south of Quel'thalas) she will have no more undead to raise. I imagine she would then send out Forsaken "recruiters" to human territory to convince some of the Stormwind humans to join the Forsaken, I am sure there are plenty of human Magi and Warlocks who would welcome undeath and loyalty to the Horde in order to study their fields for eternity.

[Darth-Piekus]

Or she can simply leave the corpses alone, forget the expansion and start searching for a cure.

[Golden Yak]

If the new Forsaken like being dead better, they get to go right back. Sylvanas died in her short story but decided undeath was a better alternative, there are some people she is HELPING by bringing people from that hell. She is raising the old dead of Lordaeron in order to reclaim Lordaeron, and after the Forsaken have complete controll of Lordaeron (everything north of the Thandol Span and south of Quel'thalas) she will have no more undead to raise. I imagine she would then send out Forsaken "recruiters" to human territory to convince some of the Stormwind humans to join the Forsaken, I am sure there are plenty of human Magi and Warlocks who would welcome undeath and loyalty to the Horde in order to study their fields for eternity.

Sylvanas only cares about the Forsaken as far as them being tools for her use. Her one and only goal at this point is to not die, since she winds up in a horrible place after dying - no idea what this place is or what causes someone's soul to go there, but it's her destination and she never wants to go back. Everything the Forsaken do is to shield her from that fate.

So she's evil, but she's also on our side - well, the Horde's anyway. She sees the Horde as another shield for her, so she wants to maintain good relations with them. She also is reluctant to squander her people's lives, since every Forsaken that needlessly perishes is one less shield for her.

The idea of her sending out recruiters to tempt people into undeath is a cool one though. I also like the idea that she might send agents to capture particularly noteworthy individuals who have died (or even those who are still alive) so she can turn them into undead and force them to serve her. Sort've targeting the best and brightest around the world and ensuring they serve the Forsaken, since the Alliance still hate and fear the undead.

[Hitei]

Sylvanas only cares about the Forsaken as far as them being tools for her use. Her one and only goal at this point is to not die, since she winds up in a horrible place after dying - no idea what this place is or what causes someone's soul to go there, but it's her destination and she never wants to go back. Everything the Forsaken do is to shield her from that fate.

So she's evil, but she's also on our side - well, the Horde's anyway. She sees the Horde as another shield for her, so she wants to maintain good relations with them. She also is reluctant to squander her people's lives, since every Forsaken that needlessly perishes is one less shield for her.

Really not sure how you came to this conclusion when she's shown several times in Cataclysm and Mists that she is perfectly willing to fight on the front lines of an engagement. She came to the battlefront to personally lead Forsaken troops in taking Gilneas City, she personally handled confronting Crowley at the Greymane wall, she landed on the beach to assist in spearheading the siege of Orgrimmar.

Sylvanas answered, but not right away. The lurking oblivion filled her with terror. Even now, she felt the tempest rage around her. This was her only way out. But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters. Separate, they were all trapped. But together, they were free… and with them, she could postpone her fate.

Yes, she views her forces as a shield against the infinite darkness, but that doesn't mean that's all they are to her.

At that moment, nobody dared look Sylvanas Windrunner in the eye. Nobody but Garrosh Hellscream.
What he saw was a great black void, an infinite darkness. There was fear in those eyes, but also something else. Something that terrified even the great warchief. His wolf began to edge away instinctively.

She fears death, but not to the point of it being her sole motivation. Other wise she would remain in the safety of Undercity under heavy guard and have trusted officials do everything. I thought it was pretty clear in Silverpine that she does have legitimate concern for their well being beyond them being her army. The Forsaken are her people, Lordaeron is her kingdom.

[Golden Yak]

Really not sure how you came to this conclusion when she's shown several times in Cataclysm and Mists that she is perfectly willing to fight on the front lines of an engagement.

It comes from her flat-out statement that the Forsaken are a 'bulwark against the infinite.'

The Forsaken are seen as a tool, but not one to be needlessly squandered. She will act in their interests because she doesn't want to grind them away uselessly. So sure, if her taking to the field can save a few hundred of them, she'll do it - the hundreds that she saves might be useful to her later on. Taking no risks at all could wind up burning through her forces too much - she'll act to save them for when she really needs them.

If she wants to take care of them, it's the same way a shepherd takes care of their flock - not because they love them, but because they need to eat the sheep to survive.

[Jaspias]

It comes from her flat-out statement that the Forsaken are a 'bulwark against the infinite.'

The Forsaken are seen as a tool, but not one to be needlessly squandered. She will act in their interests because she doesn't want to grind them away uselessly. So sure, if her taking to the field can save a few hundred of them, she'll do it - the hundreds that she saves might be useful to her later on. Taking no risks at all could wind up burning through her forces too much - she'll act to save them for when she really needs them.

If she wants to take care of them, it's the same way a shepherd takes care of their flock - not because they love them, but because they need to eat the sheep to survive.

As an undead, Sylvanas has no need for mortal comforts like food, water, or even shelter. If not dying is her only motivation, she could just crawl into a cave and be content. She wants to build her empire for her people. She wants the cure, even if not for herself, because her people may want it. She even wanted to kill her sister and nephews so they could live with her in the Undercity. It sounds to me like the Forsaken are indeed her people and not her tools, although she is indeed prone to EXTREME anger in which she just stops caring.

[sweepdeepsPL]

Well, what I had meant with the whole Sylvanas angle is really just a consequence of the Plaguelands being usable again.


After the scourge got their leader killed (and replaced with a dormant and docile one) their grip on the lands not in Northrend fell pretty quickly. This is most evident in WPL, where the Alliance are already moving into the area to farm it (as the kingdom held very fertile cropland). The Argent Crusade moving in to forge a home post-Wrath kinda makes a bit of a hypocritical existence. To the AC, they do not lift a finger as Southshore and the rest of Hillsbrad are turned into concentration camps for non-Forsaken, while they (the Argent Crusade) take it upon themselves to cleanse such evil from the rest of the world.


The Alliance also has a claim to the area, as by the succession of the Kingdom of Lordaeron it would revert to their liege-lord (i.e. Kingdom title passing onto the highest ranking King in whatever pact the Alliance was) meaning that Varian does have a claim over it as well. All in all, it would be a way for that section of the world to progress past the ghosts of Warcraft III past. And also give progression to Sylvanas and also has the potential to have the Alliance to be the aggressive force in an expansion.