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  1. #1
    Epic! Ermelloth's Avatar
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    Horde on EU realms: near death PvP-wise.

    I guess, this was posted number of times already. Though last time it was like 50 Horde players in top 1000, now their number diminished even more:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3 - only 25 Horde players in top 1000!! in 3vs3 EU bracket.

    But the post is not just about Arena. This situation (top PvP players going one faction), in fact, deeply affected lower brackets and PvP population in general.

    How? let me explain.

    1. Random BG queues

    Current queue for random BG for Alliance (peak hours from 6 to 11 PM) = 8 min in average. Yesterday around 10 PM it reached 12 min.
    Current queue for random BG for Horde during same hours = 2-3 min the most. I've never seen Horde queue longer than 4 min over a month.

    Consider the fact Alliance characters usually have +2 BG queue options (since they don't disable the two 40-man BGs AV and IoC which favor Alliance) and what shortened Alliance queues by default in the past. Even with that, Alliance queues are *2-3 LONGER today.

    2. Situation in Ashran

    In nearly every Ashran instance (it's no longer realm-related, all parallel Ashrans are cross-realm now) Alliance has more players inside and is constantly winning both the events and gets boss kills.

    If before the recent changes it was like "Alliance kills boss, Horde wins events" now Horde doesn't have neither boss nor events.

    Alliance completely dominates all Ashrans in like 90% cases, whenever you log in. I forgot when Horde managed to kill Tremblade last time.

    3. PvP guilds (especially RBG)

    I have toons on number of EU realms and I can tell you that while Horde PvP guilds are extinct or hardly exist, Alliance PvP guilds flourish and get more and more members. Nearly all my Real ID / Btag friends who are PvPers rerolled to Alliance or made Alliance alts, since they can't find proper RBG teams on Horde side.

    4. World PvP

    Let's look on Defias Brotherhood-EU realm, the so called "WPvP capital" of Europe. In start and middle of WoD Horde side was one dominant in both PvP and WPvP on this realm, boasting several large guilds. But as it is now, more and more core players rerolled to Alliance and this led to destruction and disband of most of Horde WPvP guilds. Even devoted Horde players moved to Alliance side.

    Now, when I've listed the facts based on my own experience and my friends' experience, let us ask the following question: WHY does it happen?

    The answer is simple - so called "train effect".

    At first it wasn't so massively felt by the community cause it only affected high-level PvP brackets with only few thousand players. However, it did affect MASSES of players in recent month or two and the situation continues deteriorating.

    * *

    Let us take an average hypothetic PvP player of, let's say, 1.7-2.1k XP, who wants to become better and get some titles in the future.

    He reads the forums, looks for RBG guild or good PvP guild and slowly realizes that there is no chance he can get higher or find better players on Horde side.

    So what does he do?

    Rerolls.

    This is where the key of the problem is. First it was top 1000. 2.6k rated players. Then 2.4k players, who want to play with these 2.6k players in order to make progress, start following them and reroll Alliance too to have whom to play with. Then it's the 2.2k players who reroll as well to have more and better options.

    NOW the 1.8k ones also started following the trend, and even some 1.5k average gamers as well! And here it started to affect random BG timers and situation in Ashran (we assume that top players seldom go to random BG and Ashran, but 1.5k players do that quite often).

    Add the racial imbalance to the picture....

    My prediction.. if things go the way they go now, very soon Blizzard will have to make "Alliance vs Alliance" random BGs and Ashran instances possible as well, because there will be little of Horde playerbase left to pose any sort of rivalry even there, except noobs and bots.

    * * *

    Why doesn't Blizzard swiftly respond to this huge balance hole which significantly impacts PvP these days?

    I honestly hope the problem isn't being ignored just in order to milk the faction change cow to its limits until Horde completely dies out in PvP and then enhance Horde racials in next expansion (?) so half the rerollers go back paying once again.
    Last edited by Ermelloth; 2015-05-14 at 10:47 AM.

  2. #2
    Pretty much agree with all you said...
    Honestly dont understand how they could improve ally racials and downgrade horde's, when in MoP alliance dominated brackets...
    But yeah i guess that in most scenarios horde racials are better for PVE, big part of the reason they got nerfed...
    But yeah everyone i knew (all is pvp'ers) rerolled ally pretty much right when WoD came out... I rolled horde and said FU all....

    But yeah was kinda dumb, my entire friend list was alliance, so after being 100 for 5-6 hours, i faction changed.
    GIMME BACK HORDE GUYSES...

    Forgot to ask, have you checked US brackets and Asian brackets?...
    In MoP most of the pvp'ers in US was horde, while most in EU was alliance...
    No doubt in my mind ally racials is better, but would be sorta fun to see if the "pattern" re-appears on asian / US servers.

  3. #3
    Epic! Ermelloth's Avatar
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    On US situation didn't reach the average masses of players yet. It's not as bad as on EU.

    Again, when it's just about 1000-1500 top players it's not global. But when it starts affecting below 2k players, random BG and Ashran (MASS PVP) features, this IS global.

  4. #4
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    And so, when the next quarterly earnings are published, there will be 1 more million subscription loses, i am horde, instead of rerolling i'd better quit entirely, but more and more realms are dying out on the horde EU side, and i can barely find someone to cap 2v2, peak times there are barely any RBG's in the Dfinder.

    The current blizzard team is one of the worst i have seen in terms of decision making, they could have taken this game with WOD to a new quality level, instead they are being plain stupid and act on the advice from their pets (no offense to the poor pets).

    I would gladly watch WoW go down in flames, the entire team be fired, and some top level executive, and start a fresh with a team with actual relevant background, which can learn from the others mistakes.

  5. #5
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Pretty much the reason I stopped playing now, I just log in to do the Garrison chores so I don't feel like wasting money as I have game time left.

    A lot of Horde players simply quit because they don't want to play Alliance as their main character and the environment is just bad for a Horde player now.

  6. #6
    Epic! Ermelloth's Avatar
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    I do have Alliance counter-character (had no choice but to make one), but my main with all the precious items, the gold, the transmogs, etc, is Horde and I have no intention to move faction.

  7. #7
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddog66 View Post
    I stopped pvping as well shortly at the start of the expac. I play a warlock and only a warlock--the same character I started with 8+ years ago. Nuff said I will not change to alliance or class change because my warlock is it for me. I just stop doing things that were changed to less than fun. I'm sure many stop doing things that are no longer fun.
    I tried playing my Alliance Shaman, but it just didn't feel right and eventually came back to Horde.

    I still wanted a change though, I dislike what they did with my beloved Warlock in MoP and WoD. If it wasn't for an idea to level an Undead Monk, I would quit months ago. I really enjoy playing Mistweaver, but after a while you realize the game itself isn't fun anymore due the various reasons.

  8. #8
    Banned Rorke's Avatar
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    There is no solution to the issue. It doesn't matter if they "fix" racials, it doesn't matter if they make free faction tranfers to horde, it doesn't matter if they decide to give horde some kind of advantage. Nothing will fix the core issue at hand which is factions existing in the first place and the in game barrier set in place where opposite faction players can't play together.

    The playerbase of 2015 is not the same playerbase as 2008 or before. Factions just do not work in a gaming environment where twitch streamers rule the community, existence of server transfers, faction transfers, Real ID, cross realm playability, conquest catch up to help alts (or rerolls) and near instant rerolls through character boosts.

    The mentality of the playerbase has also changed where today rated pvp is the only kind of pvp that is taken seriously. Nobody in 2015 cares about factions or the lore of the game. Nobody likes Alterac Vally/Ashran type of world pvp because that kind of pvp has gone the way of the dinosaur thanks to Twitch streaming enabling casual players that once enjoyed the old form of pvp, to embrace and accept rated pvp as the dominant form of pvp. Therefore, most players today do not care about switching characters because most players care more about rating and playing with the best instead of faction/character loyalty.

    Blizzard can't stop twitch streaming, they can't stop players from doing whatever the hell their favorite streamer/top player is doing. They can't stop top players from deciding the fate of faction balance by swapping over when they feel like it. The only thing they can do to fix the issue of factions to abolish them completely (won't happen) or to allow some kind of cross faction playability in rated PvP (which won't happen either.)
    Last edited by Rorke; 2015-05-14 at 05:10 PM.

  9. #9
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    Undead are my favorite race by far and I will play it till my dying days. The exodus of Horde players has affected me greatly though, I main PvP.

  10. #10
    PvP just needs to die. hold your horses before you start shitting all over me:

    There is too much imbalance due to pve for pvp too ever be good again. EVER.

    Make another game or specific servers for pvp with other numbers.
    or just ditch it and pray any of the new blizz games can provide what the pvpers want.

    i used to pvp myself so it's not that i dislike it or anything. it just simple wont be good again unless some extreme change is made due to PVE.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The only thing they can do to fix the issue of factions to abolish them completely (won't happen) or to allow some kind of cross faction playability in rated PvP (which won't happen either.)
    Remove all racials completely. Isn't the first time it has been suggested and won't be the last either.

  12. #12
    Pit Lord goblingirl's Avatar
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    Even if the racials were the same on both sides, it would still be a problem. High ranked players will always transfer factions to be on the same faction as other high ranked players, because they want to win.

  13. #13
    It is a bandwagon effect, like you said. Because of that, I don't see it changing until the next xpac. Blizz did exactly what you said during the start of WoD (except in reverse): they nerfed UD/Orc racials and buffed dwarf racial. Top PvPers switched (US was horde dominated in MoP), then they reverted the UD/Orc racial change and nerfed Dwarf change. But after people have rerolled, it is a bit too late. We won't see a change until next xpac, IMO. And if they did make the changes you described, it would just be the same situation but in reverse (like in MoP, although MoP was a bit more balanced faction-wise).

  14. #14
    Banned Rorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    Remove all racials completely. Isn't the first time it has been suggested and won't be the last either.
    Removing Racials does not solve the fact that players from opposing factions can't play together. Competitive players are forced to play on the same faction if they want to build a network of friends through battletag.

  15. #15
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    Ryan, the racials were what caused this to begin with. So acting as if they have nothing to do with it is ridiculous. Would changing them at this point fix the issue? No, as it has gone too far already. They however stand in the way of any and every solution to this problem. Even if you'd allow the two factions to play together, the best racials for most classes would still be Alliance.

  16. #16
    Banned Rorke's Avatar
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    The racials argument doesn't explain why US players decided to swap from Alliance in Cataclysm to Horde in MoP. If the alliance racials are so much better, then why did US players change in MoP while EU players were Alliance in MoP?

    Everything about faction disparity is completely controlled by the twitch streamers and top players. Whatever faction they decide to play will be the ultimate decider on which faction will rule the region. Do racials have an impact? Possibly. I'm sure nerfing horde racials and buffing alliance racials had some impact on some top players to make the swap but racials have never been the ultimate decider. They even reverted the nerfs to Horde racials and nerfed Stoneform/Escape Artist and soon EMFH and yet people will still stay Alliance.

    It doesn't matter if they remove/nerf EMFH or change how racials in game work. If they nerf alliance racials, people will stay on the alliance until a new expansion launches where top players will decide to start over and jump ship to Horde. Some of you are living in fantasy world if you think that both factions can be competitive if they removed/tweaked racials when all of the good players are forced to stack on the same faction if they want to play/network together.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The racials argument doesn't explain why US players decided to swap from Alliance in Cataclysm to Horde in MoP. If the alliance racials are so much better, then why did US players change in MoP while EU players were Alliance in MoP?
    Several Horde racials were actually nerfed over the duration of MoP and into WoD making them less competitive. The "anti stun" gem is gone aswell that allowed Orc shamans together with their nerfed racial to get a far shorter stun duration than other shamans. And the US PvP scene always has been "lagging behind" and been "less competitive". It's a trend that was already going on in the EU and the further incencitives to switch Alliance has killed Horde for good.

    Everything about faction disparity is completely controlled by the twitch streamers and top players. Whatever faction they decide to play will be the ultimate decider on which faction will rule the region. Do racials have an impact? Possibly. I'm sure nerfing horde racials and buffing alliance racials had some impact on some top players to make the swap but racials have never been the ultimate decider. They even reverted the nerfs to Horde racials and nerfed Stoneform/Escape Artist and soon EMFH and yet people will still stay Alliance.
    Racials were one of the top reasons why high ranked players started to switch, especially the human one. The Alliance overall had a better line up in terms of racials already, they then gave them further reasons by lowering the viability of Horde racials which caused a lot of hold outs in the EU to finally switch and reverting those nerfs later did little to makle them switch back as they still ultimatively had the better racials Alliance side.

    It also destroyed the Horde PvP community to an extend that makes it hard to even find groups. You can't PvP on Horde anymore. It reached the point where even random BGs are a catastrophe, switching back to Horde makes no sense whatsoever so obviously nobody is going to do it.

    It doesn't matter if they remove/nerf EMFH or change how racials in game work. If they nerf alliance racials, people will stay on the alliance until a new expansion launches where top players will decide to start over and jump ship to Horde. Some of you are living in fantasy world if you think that both factions can be competitive if they removed/tweaked racials when all of the good players are forced to stack on the same faction if they want to play/network together.
    Except for a long time it worked pretty nicely on both sides, odd! For the longest time we didn't have equal but pretty close sides with big PvP guilds on either side. Blizzard fostered this changing on purpose (there's little to no reason to believe they didn't) as they profited from it but they shot way over the mark. The only way to get anyone to switch back to Horde is to give them good enough a reason. However if you do it'll ultimatively end up forcing everyone to switch back to Horde putting the Alliance into the situation the Horde is now in.

    They blew it, simple as that.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    This is more or less the biggest reason I stopped playing, too. I miss it, and if there IS a good EU Horde PVP guild around I'd definitely be up for playing again / switching servers but at the moment it's all kinda meh.

  19. #19
    I dont know what is blizz waiting for. This problems are here for months now and they still havent fixed it. They are waiting like they did with free faction changes back in Wotlk, when realms got unbalanced and they still are. Or are they waiting on purpose, so that more people will change faction and after the fix will have to change it back... €€€

  20. #20
    Deleted
    I came back like 3 weeks ago as I haven't played since the release of MoP. Man, I don't recognize horde PVP anymore. My fully geared heal pala wins maybe 15% of the games. Not only seems that the players on horde side are worse skillwise but they are often undergeared. Wins are often nailbiters, losses very lopsided. Half the games kills are like 8:73 or something like that. Very frustrating especially as healer. Most of the times I don't even bother resurecting and rather check out reddit.
    Difficult to find decent arena mates, impossible to find decent RBG groups.
    How do the people responsibe for PVP design still have a job?

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