Balance T18 - BiS Progression Discussion

[Juvencus]

Hey Xtramuscle, since you have mentioned your character having a lot of mastery, I figured I wanted to check your character to further discuss my earlier point and maybe learn something in the meantime. I have simulated your character on 1 and 3 targets for comparison. I very much hope that you do not take this attempt as anything hostile, on the contrary my intent is to learn from a better progressed person than myself.



Both of them are normalized values. So it is safe to say that haste returns better damage than mastery for 1 and 3 targets and crit returns slightly better damage. So then comes my question to both you and Alame or anyone else that wants to share their opinions. Wouldnt it be actually better to gem and enchant haste in this situation? Having 375 more haste instead of mastery is going to be both a QoL improvement and according to Simcraft a DPS improvement. Is there any specific reason why you are using mastery instead of haste in this case.

Edit: Used excel table because I suck at using the forum table function.

That's not how it works. See top 2 posts of page 27.

Basically what you see in the table is "What stat is better to get if my simmed stat amounts stay the same". Basically boils down to what Food Buff to use.

[kalematix]

Can you tell me how to set up simcraft to show me my stat weights as of right now? i cant seem to figure it out

[Alame]

Can you tell me how to set up simcraft to show me my stat weights as of right now? i cant seem to figure it out

At the bottom of your sim profile you have a section that looks like this:

# Gear Summary
# gear_ilvl=728.33
# gear_stamina=6209
# gear_intellect=4498
# gear_spell_power=2545
# gear_crit_rating=1045
# gear_haste_rating=2095
# gear_mastery_rating=2775
# gear_multistrike_rating=923
# gear_versatility_rating=130
# gear_armor=1379
# set_bonus=tier18_2pc=1
# set_bonus=tier18_4pc=1

To equalize secondary stats and calculate accurate stat weights you do the following:
1. Add up Mastery, Crit, Haste, Multi, and Versatility - in the above example the result is 6966
2. Add 275 (2x 50 ring enchants, 1x 75 Neck enchant, 1x 100 Cloak enchant) - 7241 (We ignore weapon enchants because each functions slightly differently)
3. Divide result of #2 by 5, yielding 1448.2
4. Round to the nearest whole number - 1448
5. Remove the hashtags from the secondary stat lines
6. Set all secondary stats equal to the result of #3 yielding:

# Gear Summary
# gear_ilvl=728.33
# gear_stamina=6209
# gear_intellect=4498
# gear_spell_power=2545
gear_crit_rating=1448
gear_haste_rating=1448
gear_mastery_rating=1448
gear_multistrike_rating=1448
gear_versatility_rating=1448
# gear_armor=1379
# set_bonus=tier18_2pc=1
# set_bonus=tier18_4pc=1

Then run your sim.

As I've said previously, this isn't a flawless approach to determining stat weights. However it is reasonably accurate at determining the value of each stat. When applied with a healthy dose of critical thinking, it provides the basis on which we make our gear decisions.

[hayvanadam]

That's not how it works. See top 2 posts of page 27.

Basically what you see in the table is "What stat is better to get if my simmed stat amounts stay the same". Basically boils down to what Food Buff to use.

Sorry, I read both posts 3 times now and still does not explain WHY. Whats the difference between swapping a mastery food to haste food and swapping a mastery ring enchant to haste ring enchant. One moves 125 mastery to haste, the other moves 50. If anything, using the mastery food is better than using a haste enchant from your point of view.

"What stat is better to get if my simmed stat amounts stay the same"

I understand this. However I dont get "stay the same" part. From what I understand, as long as haste stays over mastery even after you move your enchants/gems, its still a dps gain. You may argue that 300 haste instead of mastery wouldnt be significant anyway, but technically its still a gain.

Then run your sim.

As I've said previously, this isn't a flawless approach to determining stat weights. However it is reasonably accurate at determining the value of each stat. When applied with a healthy dose of critical thinking, it provides the basis on which we make our gear decisions.

I appreciate how you took the time to explain this. I was wondering how exactly you equalized secondaries. However, my confusion still stands. Equalized secondary stat sims lets us understand which stat(s) is the best and which gear to get. On the other hand, imho, personalized sims lets you find which stat(s) are better at your current gear and dictates how to make fine adjustments.

I realize none of these actually matter when compared to execution by the way.

Can you tell me how to set up simcraft to show me my stat weights as of right now? i cant seem to figure it out

Im not sure if the question you asked was the one Alame answered or it was a more basic one. If your question was how to configure simcraft so the results yield stat weights; here is how you do it.
- Go to options/scaling tab
- Tick "Enable scaling"
- I prefer to disable tertiary stats as it cuts down simulation time and the difference they make is miniscule
- Using this option makes simcraft scan a range for each secondary around the number you have and determine how much each secondary affects your dps.

2. Add 275 (2x 50 ring enchants, 1x 75 Neck enchant, 1x 100 Cloak enchant) - 7241 (We ignore weapon enchants because each functions slightly differently)

I believe you should also add 50 (Or 75 if you are using epic gems) per socket you have in your gear.

[Alame]

I appreciate how you took the time to explain this. I was wondering how exactly you equalized secondaries. However, my confusion still stands. Equalized secondary stat sims lets us understand which stat(s) is the best and which gear to get. On the other hand, imho, personalized sims lets you find which stat(s) are better at your current gear and dictates how to make fine adjustments.

I realize none of these actually matter when compared to execution by the way.

I mean, there's a really easy way to test this.

Haste is what's going to pop up as your best stat if you sim your gear on patchwerk. With that in mind, you do 2 sims - one with Sleeper Sushi and one with Buttered Sturgeon.

If haste is truly your best stat as the sim claims - you will see a dps increase. I see a small DPS loss in nearly every instance I try this.

[hayvanadam]

I mean, there's a really easy way to test this.

Haste is what's going to pop up as your best stat if you sim your gear on patchwerk. With that in mind, you do 2 sims - one with Sleeper Sushi and one with Buttered Sturgeon.

If haste is truly your best stat as the sim claims - you will see a dps increase. I see a small DPS loss in nearly every instance I try this.

I agree and I will do it. However, when we are only changing as few as 125 stats to something else, simulational variety also becomes a thing. So Im going to do simulations with 100k iterations as opposed to the 10k default from simcraft. But I am afraid this will take some time though, I will complete in the following days and report my result.

Quick question: Changing the food is done by just changing the line "actions.precombat+=/food,type=sleeper_sushi" to buttered_surgeon, right?

So, the following is going to be the table I report:



Do you think it is adequate?

Edit: Please notice that even though nothing has changed, the sim results show different values, hence my point for the need to increase number of iterations for accuracy.

[Alame]

I agree and I will do it. However, when we are only changing as few as 125 stats to something else, simulational variety also becomes a thing. So Im going to do simulations with 100k iterations as opposed to the 10k default from simcraft. But I am afraid this will take some time though, I will complete in the following days and report my result.

Quick question: Changing the food is done by just changing the line "actions.precombat+=/food,type=sleeper_sushi" to buttered_surgeon, right?

So, the following is going to be the table I report:



Do you think it is adequate?

Underline mine

Yes. That will change the 125 Mastery buff to a 125 Haste buff.

Your sim set looks to be well set up - although I wouldn't worry about doing 3-target sims right now. If there's some strong deviations in single target (where we know haste is highly favoured and quite close to mastery) it will be worth doing the HAC/3-target sims. However the results I think you're going to find don't support that.

[hayvanadam]

I admit defeat. Find my results below. I dont see any point running anymore 100k sims as they take a lot of time.



Brb changing my enchants back to mastery

Anyway, this was a good exercise and one in which theory doesnt translate into results. I still do not understand why the results are like this, but I am not going to insist.

Thank you for carrying this on with me.

[huth]

Sorry, I read both posts 3 times now and still does not explain WHY. Whats the difference between swapping a mastery food to haste food and swapping a mastery ring enchant to haste ring enchant. One moves 125 mastery to haste, the other moves 50. If anything, using the mastery food is better than using a haste enchant from your point of view.

It's the swapping part. The sim doesn't show you whether you should swap from mastery to haste food. It only shows you which one you should use if you don't use any currently. There's also a bit of simplification in the message, the same way you wouldn't explain particle physics indepth to a 4 year old.

[Deleted]

Hey guys!
Long time lurker here :>
I just wanted to ask if you use SS instead of SF with SoC (HC).
I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here but I just couldn't find it.
Thanks in advance.

[Alame]

Hey guys!
Long time lurker here :>
I just wanted to ask if you use SS instead of SF with SoC (HC).
I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here but I just couldn't find it.
Thanks in advance.

You're going to have to excuse me because this is going to come across as derisive.

Seed gives you a chance to proc starfall when using Starsurge
It does not give you a chance to proc Starsurge when using Starfall

If you are in a situation where you need to use Starsurge but having Starfall proc anyway is nice (1 target), which one do you think you should use?
If you are in a situation where Starfall is better than Starsurge by a small margin (~3 targets) which one do you think you should use?
If you are in a situation where you NEED Starfall up and cannot rely on a trinket proc (firebombs on Reaver) which one do you think you should use?

[Deleted]

Well I'm feeling quite dumb right now .. yeah I could've thought of that on my own I guess - duh
Thanks mate :>

[Urass]

hey some quick questions.

just aquired the Mythic with socket trinket from Iskar.

wondering if i should just DE it?

current trinkets are Piston (Mythic), Goren (Mythic), Darmac (Mythic), Gaze (Mythic + socket).

currently i'm getting like 2-3% of my damage coming from gaze when I've tried it.... and sadly it just seems very underwhelming......

PS. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eneur/advanced

[Alame]

hey some quick questions.

just aquired the Mythic with socket trinket from Iskar.

wondering if i should just DE it?

current trinkets are Piston (Mythic), Goren (Mythic), Darmac (Mythic), Gaze (Mythic + socket).

currently i'm getting like 2-3% of my damage coming from gaze when I've tried it.... and sadly it just seems very underwhelming......

PS. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eneur/advanced

Shard that shit.

[Krazyito]

Not sure if someone has linked this here before, but I thought I'd share a link to somewhere that lets you set up multiple trinket comparisions in simC. Basically i edited the table with the trinket information and just took all the 'copy' parts and pasted it at the bottom of my sim profile

http://repl.it/4uA - You can run the python script from within that website.

Also here is my personal one I started using for trinkets I have / able to get: http://pastebin.com/kh2cRBEx

[jobinskii]

Ok so heres my Stats:
3048 Mastery
448 Crit
1097 Haste
786 Multistrike
I really feel like I'm low on crit, should I get some crit enchants or just keep it like how it is right now?

[xtramuscle]

Ok so heres my Stats:
3048 Mastery
448 Crit
1097 Haste
786 Multistrike
I really feel like I'm low on crit, should I get some crit enchants or just keep it like how it is right now?

I was in a similar spot, I managed to gain some crit by crafting the 715 belt, and telling my gm I need some crit gear, and I saw a dps increase. That being said I kept my mastery enchants and food buff, but if it is only a temporary thing until you get the right gear, it's probably cheaper to just switch to crit food.

[jobinskii]

I was in a similar spot, I managed to gain some crit by crafting the 715 belt, and telling my gm I need some crit gear, and I saw a dps increase. That being said I kept my mastery enchants and food buff, but if it is only a temporary thing until you get the right gear, it's probably cheaper to just switch to crit food.

Ok so i crafted a 715 ring and i'm now back at 640 crit with 2985 mastery, I think I like this combo more, I will try both food buffs to see what parses better. ty vexxe

[bonesmello]

Shard that shit.

I know it's bad for many reasons, but I have the same question with less options in my bags. I have MWF Blackiron Micro Crucible, and Normal WF DSI equipped. I only have Heroic Gorens and Darmac. I rolled PoF Heroic in my cache. Is it possible to put it to use on add fights like HFA/Iskar/Xhul as a replacement for my BMC, or should I really just shard it. Because that would make me sad.

[Hekkipekki]

I was in a similar spot, I managed to gain some crit by crafting the 715 belt, and telling my gm I need some crit gear, and I saw a dps increase. That being said I kept my mastery enchants and food buff, but if it is only a temporary thing until you get the right gear, it's probably cheaper to just switch to crit food.

Crit - 1228
Haste - 870
Multistrike - 833
Mastery - 2624
Versatility - 134

I'm having problem removing crit for haste/mastery ^^
Im to high on crit, and I really wanna remove some hah.