Experimenting with Pleistocene Rewilding!

[Wildtree]

Military? Why do you keep referencing the military? I doubt horses, bison, camels, elk, white-tailed deer and cheetahs would do any harm, especially if they are fenced off in their own reserve. It also wouldn't be our undoing, I've never heard of a wolf causing the total breakdown of a society.

Because someone has to pay for it. Someone has to provide the resources. Someone has to provide the land. Or not?
Who would that be?

[Techno-Druid]

Yeah? Remember wolves? You were very much in favour of introducing those into Middle/West Europe. Guess what? There's some there and they're already starting to engage in pre predation on humans and causing heaps of problems. Their days are pretty much numbered. But here you are, propagating bringing invasive species and some of them possibly dangerous into a eco-system that is very likely not suited for them anymore, wouldn't benefit from them and most likely will be harmed.

Wolves don't prey on humans, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. In fact, wolves in Europe are smaller than North American wolves and there are surprisingly extremely few wolf attacks. Also, you seem not to understand that a hundred years is not enough time for many prey species to evolve without any predator.

[Deleted]

Wolves don't prey on humans, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. In fact, wolves in Europe are smaller than North American wolves and there are surprisingly extremely few wolf attacks.

Few is not enough thats not how humans work.

Its btw. enough that they feed on livestock.

We have hunting seasons for deers and so forth to counter the lack of large predators.

[Techno-Druid]

Because someone has to pay for it. Someone has to provide the resources. Someone has to provide the land. Or not?
Who would that be?

The conductors of the experiment? I mean the started of Pleistocene Park (Sergey Zimov) didn't take money from the Russian government. He just bought land, fenced it off and introducing animals which had gone extinct (horses, bison, musk ox, etc). He actually recently bought a new park which he has already introduced a large amounts of fauna to simulate an Artic grassland to educate people. Later he plans on reintroducing the Siberian or Amur tiger.

[Deleted]

What this guy does is just a fancy private zoo.

[Techno-Druid]

Few is not enough thats not how humans work.

Its btw. enough that they feed on livestock.

We have hunting seasons for deers and so forth to counter the lack of large predators.

Yes, I know he calls elk deer, but that's what they are; deer. This video wasn't actually made by the person narrating, it was taken from a much longer talk...

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What this guy does is just a fancy private zoo.

Not really, well I haven't seen a zoo that possesses a food chain and records the ecological affects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_Park#Animals

[Deleted]

Not really, well I haven't seen a zoo that possesses a food chain and records the ecological affects.

It is a fancy zoo by a crazy russian preper at the end of nowhere.

[Deleted]

Omaha, Nebraska metro here......
Cops just shot a mountain lion within city limits here a short while ago... We got enough wilderness for that matter... lol

Well, we got wolves now strolling through villages and small towns, attacking sheep herds while people are there trying to fend them off, the police had to come and drive them off with rubber bullets. They also probed humans several times already.

Wolves don't prey on humans, that's not an opinion, that's a fact.

What? A quick internet search would that prove to be completely and utter nonsense. There's zero, zilch, no reason whatsoever why wolves wouldn't prey on humans. We fit all their prey criteria. The only places where wolves to shy away and usually (not always) don't attack humans is regions where people are armed and being hunted.
Heck, in the France history records alone there's thousands upon thousands of leathal wolve attacks on people in france (mostly children) and only a tiny fraction of those were rabbid wolves. Even now in regions where wolves live with humans they tend to engage in predatory behaviour upon humans and once they start the only way to get them to stop is to the offending pack out.

In fact, wolves in Europe are smaller than North American wolves and there are surprisingly extremely few wolf attacks. Also, you seem not to understand that a hundred years is not enough time for many prey species to evolve without any predator.

Wolves in America come far less often into contact with humans than the small number of wolves in Western/Middle Europe already do. Then again, many people in the US are ARMED which according to behaviourist leads to wolves tending to avoid humans (and not always) as they perceive them as danger. The wolves in western europe have no fear of any kind of humans as they've never been hunt and see humans not as a contestor nor predator (then again, wolves tend to try and drive off/kill contestors aswell, including other wolves).

You are completely and utterly clueless. You've never read up on ANY of this. Your perception of the whole issue as hand is basically through naive rose tinted glasses and it shows.

[Wildtree]

The conductors of the experiment? I mean the started of Pleistocene Park (Sergey Zimov) didn't take money from the Russian government. He just bought land, fenced it off and introducing animals which had gone extinct (horses, bison, musk ox, etc). He actually recently bought a new park which he has already introduced a large amounts of fauna to simulate an Artic grassland to educate people. Later he plans on reintroducing the Siberian or Amur tiger.

I'm not sure if you made that stuff up now, regarding the financing. Seems like it though.
But go ahead.... None of us will hold you up... Off you go to the Siberian tundra..

[Deleted]

Yes, I know he calls elk deer, but that's what they are; deer. This video wasn't actually made by the person narrating, it was taken from a much longer talk...

Is there any proof for his claims? No? Thought so. Then again, people like you were arguing something similar would happen here aswell with the wolves hunting wild boars and deer who have become a problem since they lack natural predators. Funnily enough, that hasn't happened at all. There isn't a single recorded instance in which the wolves actually preyed on a wild boar and they seem to have stopped hunting deer almost entirely also.

Why? Because domestic animals make for far easier and safer prey. Which is something that is currently escalating. Up to and including surplus killing, where they savaged an entire herd of mother cows and calfs killing many and injuring most others. They ate none of it.

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I'm not sure if you made that stuff up now, regarding the financing. Seems like it though.
But go ahead.... None of us will hold you up... Off you go to the Siberian tundra..

Nah, he'd much rather do it somewhere in central Europe. You know I really think he should volunteer to move himself and his family right into the area these animals he want to introduce frequent. Afterall according to him they're completely harmless and for some odd reason would never prey on humans.

[Deleted]

When wild dogs manage to take out joggers why should wolfs be any different.

[Deleted]

When wild dogs manage to take out joggers why should wolfs be any different.

Duh, because wolves don't prey on humans silly! Why? Because he says so, despite contrary records, evidence and studies.

[Wildtree]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q

the height of the trees quintupled? Da fuck..... lmao
They're building a natural space elevator there with magic bean stocks?
Trees cannot grow 5 times higher - in just six years........
If anything then the tree shrubs can grow.
Which isn't even always wanted, since too much shrubs suffocate the ground, and then stuff dies off.

[Techno-Druid]

Wolves generally shy away from people, this is a fact. I wasn't aware that Europeans couldn't hunt them, but there are also populations within the US that do protect wolves. I do agree that large and potentially dangerous animals shouldn't allowed in rural areas, but that doesn't mean that wolves should be completely wiped out, they are predators that control populations of herbivores.

Perhaps scaring wolves with paintball guns and barking dogs as we do with bears in the US may help them stay out of rural areas.

Perhaps some American guides to dealing with wolves could educate you on ways to encourage coexistence with wolves.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/sp...lf_country.pdf

[Wildtree]

Nah, he'd much rather do it somewhere in central Europe. You know I really think he should volunteer to move himself and his family right into the area these animals he want to introduce frequent. Afterall according to him they're completely harmless and for some odd reason would never prey on humans.

Well i looked where that project is located and it's at the far north-eastern top of Siberia... Kind of really in god forsaken wilderness.
There might be a reason why they chose to be so far from civilization.

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Perhaps some American guides to dealing with wolves could educate you on ways to encourage coexistence with wolves.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/sp...lf_country.pdf

Perhaps you learn the differences between rural regions like the US is for the most part, and high densely packed regions like Europe.
Europe is roughly the size of the USA in space, yet has 2.5 times the population amount.

[Techno-Druid]

Duh, because wolves don't prey on humans silly! Why? Because he says so, despite contrary records, evidence and studies.

Wolves won't prey on humans unless it's because of starvation. Provoked Attacks are different from predatory attacks. Wolves should be euthanized when they attack humans (unless it's provoked in their natural environment and even then...), especially fatal attacks. I never said they shouldn't and whoever said I did is more delusional than you claim me to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attacks_on_humans

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Well i looked where that project is located and it's at the far north-eastern top of Siberia... Kind of really in god forsaken wilderness.
There might be a reason why they chose to be so far from civilization.

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Perhaps you learn the differences between rural regions like the US is for the most part, and high densely packed regions like Europe.
Europe is roughly the size of the USA in space, yet has 2.5 times the population amount.

I'm not trying to get into Europe, I'm focusing on North America here. I'll let you do what you want with your continent, is that alright?

That may be one of the reasons, I think there are some other factors. Yakutia is actually having some Pleistocene rewilding of their own. Around roughly 100 Canadian wood bison live there, which were introduced by the Canadian government. Bison have been extinct in Siberia since as long as the mammoth.

[Deleted]

Wolves generally shy away from people, this is a fact. I wasn't aware that Europeans couldn't hunt them, but there are also populations within the US that do protect wolves. I do agree that large and potentially dangerous animals shouldn't allowed in rural areas, but that doesn't mean that wolves should be completely wiped out, they are predators that control populations of herbivores.

Wolves do not posess a natural fear of humans, it's trained. Most of the dogs studied and looked after were in fact used to see humans as predators/dangeorus thus skewing the picture that was drawn some time ago from them. Looking further back in history before firearms became as widespread or at the current situation and in locations where there isn't as much danger to those wolves do make it pretty obvious that they A. don't posess a natural fear. B. Do not shy away from humans. C. do actually prey on humans.

And if they shouldn't be allowed in rural areas, then you have a big problem for the entirety of Middle ans Western Europe. It's all one big rural area. There's pictures of wolves strolling through towns. They engaged in pre predation on humans i.e testing them for useability as prey, they have taken to stalking humans and had to be driven away from both a school and a kindergarden already.

Perhaps scaring wolves with paintball guns and barking dogs as we do with bears in the US may help them stay out of rural areas.

Police had to drive them off from a sheep herd with rubber bullets. As the people there trying to drive them off didn't bother them in the slightest. They also killed at the very least one dog. They made their way into the enclosure the elderly dog was in, savaged it and then strolled off. They have no fear of any of that whatsoever.

Well i looked where that project is located and it's at the far north-eastern top of Siberia... Kind of really in god forsaken wilderness.
There might be a reason why they chose to be so far from civilization.

This one maybe. Other ideas of his were right in the middle of Europe and such. He's American and has no idea how densely most of France, Germany, Netherlands and such is actually populated but seems to think about it in terms of "the US, vast nothing". There's wolves up the Netherlands now, only a few dozen but they are already causing problems, a lot of them and they tested several humans for that matter already. Sadly it's apparently only a matter of time till something will go horrible wrong and then the mob will be out for blood.

[Techno-Druid]

Wolves do not posess a natural fear of humans, it's trained. Most of the dogs studied and looked after were in fact used to see humans as predators/dangeorus thus skewing the picture that was drawn some time ago from them. Looking further back in history before firearms became as widespread or at the current situation and in locations where there isn't as much danger to those wolves do make it pretty obvious that they A. don't posess a natural fear. B. Do not shy away from humans. C. do actually prey on humans.

And if they shouldn't be allowed in rural areas, then you have a big problem for the entirety of Middle ans Western Europe. It's all one big rural area. There's pictures of wolves strolling through towns. They engaged in pre predation on humans i.e testing them for useability as prey, they have taken to stalking humans and had to be driven away from both a school and a kindergarden already.

Police had to drive them off from a sheep herd with rubber bullets. As the people there trying to drive them off didn't bother them in the slightest. They also killed at the very least one dog. They made their way into the enclosure the elderly dog was in, savaged it and then strolled off. They have no fear of any of that whatsoever.


This one maybe. Other ideas of his were right in the middle of Europe and such. He's American and has no idea how densely most of France, Germany, Netherlands and such is actually populated but seems to think about it in terms of "the US, vast nothing". There's wolves up the Netherlands now, only a few dozen but they are already causing problems, a lot of them and they tested several humans for that matter already. Sadly it's apparently only a matter of time till something will go horrible wrong and then the mob will be out for blood.

Dude, you brought up Europe, I didn't, I talked about experimenting with western US.

[Deleted]

Wolves won't prey on humans unless it's because of starvation. Provoked Attacks are different from predatory attacks. Wolves should be euthanized when they attack humans (unless it's provoked in their natural environment and even then...), especially fatal attacks. I never said they shouldn't and whoever said I did is more delusional than you claim me to be.

Wolves don't attack humans unless they're hungry. Weird, that goes for any predator. You could sit in a tiger enclosure and get lucky as long as the tiger is fed and thus sees no reason to kill you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attacks_on_humans

Have you even read this? The wikipedia entry DISAGREES WITH YOU for christs sake.
"The country with the most extensive historical records is France, where nearly 7,600 fatal attacks were documented"
The Wiki entry even points out how the vast mayority of these were NOT KILLED by rabbid wolves.

"Experts in India use the term "child lifting" to describe predatory attacks in which the animal silently enters a hut while everyone is sleeping, picks up a child, often with a silencing bite to the mouth and nose, and carries a child off by the head"

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Dude, you brought up Europe, I didn't, I talked about experimenting with western US.

You posted like 2-3 threads about stuff that would've been located in Europe.

[Wildtree]

I'm not trying to get into Europe, I'm focusing on North America here. I'll let you do what you want with your continent, is that alright?

Then don't tell Europeans how they have to handle animals..
If you have no clue what you're essentially talking about.
And when you talk US..... we're back to square one. Good luck getting the funding...
It has no use for anything remotely benefiting the military. And since the US is a military industrial complex, that's what it is..
There are vast lands in the US... But getting someone to sell it to you is another story.
I'm sure they're happy when they hear you wanna bring predatory wildlife in, beyond what's already there.
In all seriousness, the American wilderness doesn't need any special treatment.
It is a lush eco system that's healthy enough that predatory animals are already entering dense populated areal. What do you wanna do? Introduce natural enemies of Pumas, to avoid Pumas roaming through cities? Any wild animal that can and wants to kill a Puma, isn't hesitant to kill humans too.