So far nothing good for Elem/Enha in 6.2?

[Deleted]

So we need to form an opinion together? Are we not allowed to have our own thoughts on the classes we play?

Of course you can form whatever opinion you want on any issue in this world, this doesnt mean that this opinion needs public attention. The only thing you're going to do by telling the Elemental community that they're fine because of the following reasons: their off healing abilities, their utility (WW totem), their defensive CDs/immunities, their immense DMG potential compared to Hunters, Mages and Warlocks. This is just going to cause trouble, conflicts and in general useless discussions because its not true. What we actually need, is to accept that Elemental has hefty flaws and doesnt get a spot in high end progression guilds unless its for gimmick boss X or Y. What we also dont need are people, who do not even play Elemental or couldnt form a proper opinion in said environment (high end progression, top 50, top 100) to further comment such useless discussions so that this circle never ends. This is where we have to unite and stand together, like every other class subforum on mmo-champion.

Wardup in this case is around since early MoP. During every build, PTR patch or announcement he was the person to spread propaganda and fueled such toxic behaivor in the first place. People who said that things like removing casting while moving, nerf to off healing and numerous other changes needed more attention for better balance were hammered down by countless repitations of "wait for the next build/PTR patch/whatever", "Elemental Shaman are fine because of WW totem", etc.

Just look at the the 4-5 hotfixes and band-aids we got after WoD launch to make Elemental even halfway playable or remotely competitve. This is caused by quality feedback from people like wardup.

[wordup]

snipping because yet again it's a load of angry rambling

Ok, a few things here:
I very, very strongly opposed the removal of Shaman offhealing, and have repeatedly said that it was a bad thing to have removed.

I also have never, in my entire life, said that WW totem is enough utility to bring shaman to raids. I have said in the past that I -hope- that come next pass on previous PTR builds that there will be something more, I have never said that we are fine and need no fixing.

Stop sensationalizing everything as if it's fact, I can go through my post history & find hundreds of times I have said that there are problems; just because I've disagreed with something in the past with you doesn't mean you can flat out lie about what I have stood for in the past; that's just asinine and childish.

[Thomp]

I like the buff they added recently that gives us 10% extra value for multistrike (up from 5%). This really makes me feel like gearing my toon correctly will have a large impact on my performance, so I think this is a positive change. Although I am worried about capping.

[Static]

I personally don't think we're in a terrible spot, but not a great one, either. I think we're kinda in the middle. That being said, there's much, much more room to improve and I hope that we see these improvements in the next expansion.

[L3fty]

I'm all for Elemental shamans being able to "unite and stand together" but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about this. I'm going to have to pick this post apart, since I saw so many problems in its purpose and conviction.

Of course you can form whatever opinion you want on any issue in this world, this doesnt mean that this opinion needs public attention

This is a gaming forum. The person's opinion could be in multiple languages, underlined and in italics. What do you mean it doesn't need public attention? This is not an official comms channel for the FBI, it's gamers posting their thoughts. Redundant point is redundant.

The only thing you're going to do by telling the Elemental community that they're fine because of the following reasons: their off healing abilities, their utility (WW totem), their defensive CDs/immunities, their immense DMG potential compared to Hunters, Mages and Warlocks. This is just going to cause trouble, conflicts and in general useless discussions because its not true. What we actually need, is to accept that Elemental has hefty flaws and doesnt get a spot in high end progression guilds unless its for gimmick boss X or Y.

You are highlighting this next point quite nicely - there are lots of people that comprise the "Elemental community". Think on that before you go on a tirade - most Elementals with current exp will agree with you on certain points, but you really don't help your cause by claiming people are saying we are fine. Maybe 1 or 2 have claimed that, but personally i've seen a lot of balanced comms on the forum. Focus on the common ground and not on the polar opposite view, it will be good for your outlook on the 'Elemental community' and your blood pressure.

What we also don't need are people, who do not even play Elemental or couldnt form a proper opinion in said environment (high end progression, top 50, top 100) to further comment such useless discussions so that this circle never ends. This is where we have to unite and stand together, like every other class subforum on mmo-champion.

See this is where I simply cannot understand your thought process when writing this post. By that criteria you are asking for the opinions on Elemental from a pool of elite 20 - 2000 players. With the greatest of respect, why should the Ele community as a whole give a crap about that bracket? I'm not saying feedback on Ele from such players wouldn't be valuable, but let's be realistic, WoW is not and has never been a balanced game at the bleeding edge. As we have seen in BRF - all melle are effectively shafted in favour of rogues. All healers are shafted in favour of Disc priests. You are essentially asking them to balance the game for the top 0.01% and that is simply not feasible. If I was a cutting edge raider would I roll a DPS shaman? No Would I roll a DPS DK? No Would I roll a DPS monk? No. Fact is that good players get into good guilds.

Wardup in this case is around since early MoP. During every build, PTR patch or announcement he was the person to spread propaganda and fueled such toxic behaivor in the first place. People who said that things like removing casting while moving, nerf to off healing and numerous other changes needed more attention for better balance were hammered down by countless repitations of "wait for the next build/PTR patch/whatever", "Elemental Shaman are fine because of WW totem", etc.

The personal snide parts of this post really let everything you write down. I couldn't care less whether you think someone is being toxic - but if you outwardly call them that then please back it up. From the posts i've read wordup is actually very balanced and realistic about the current flaws with playing a DPS shaman. So again, instead of randomly flaming, why not focus on the common concerns and create a thread for improvements?

Let's also not forget that for MoP Method brought an Ele shaman for all their World First kills. Now i'm not saying we are even remotely as useful as we were in MoP, but the way some of you guys are talking it's like we have been terrible since the spawn of WoW - that's not true.

Just look at the the 4-5 hotfixes and band-aids we got after WoD launch to make Elemental even halfway playable or remotely competitve. This is caused by quality feedback from people like wardup.

WoD launch was terrible for Ele, I agree. However, it has improved greatly and you don't even seem to acknowledge that. Do we need to have top dps and top utility amongst the elite 2000 players for you to be happy with the current state of Elemental?

My views:

We need some off healing back and slightly better DPS on the move. That's it. I currently enjoy playing Ele massively. We have solid single target and very strong multi target. So, I might not be able to apply for Paragon, but I can outperform half of the DPS in my raid and enjoy my playtime. I can't relate to the doom narration and the calls for 'complete reworks'.

Edit-

Last point in terms of DMG reductions - Ele has a good toolkit but it lacks a full immunity. If played correctly you can generally out survive most other DPS classes with combining Astral Shift + Shamanistic Rage, coupled with healing surge spam. I would like us to get an immunity similar to Ice Block/Deterrence/HoP...but let's not be silly - our DMG mitigation is solid enough.

[Guchie]

It's always been like this. Shaman have been overlooked every expansion and every expansion we have these same threads about it.

I never understood why people in abusive relationships stay, until I realized I still play a shaman.

[Deleted]

Last point in terms of DMG reductions - Ele has a good toolkit but it lacks a full immunity. If played correctly you can generally out survive most other DPS classes with combining Astral Shift + Shamanistic Rage, coupled with healing surge spam. I would like us to get an immunity similar to Ice Block/Deterrence/HoP...but let's not be silly - our DMG mitigation is solid enough.

Yes, but immunities are awesome because you can cheese mechanics with them. That's some more utility. DMG reduction is good, but nearly never needed atm.

[Deleted]

Yes, but immunities are awesome because you can cheese mechanics with them. That's some more utility. DMG reduction is good, but nearly never needed atm.

Wanted to comment on this part a few days ago, but this weekends weather was just too awesome. I also recall he mentioned Healing Surge spam..

@L3fty Great post, dude.. keep that up. Currently working on some trinket setups, since Summon Stone is going slow atm - but I'll discuss it out with ya next time.

[Deleted]

Classes
Ability pruning may not have gone far enough. Shamans may not need the Unleash spells. Some classes had abilities pruned that shouldn't have been and the class fantasy suffered.

Thought I'd add that here, just in case it's missed. I personally wouldn't miss UE. Hitting a spell for a buff never felt very rewarding.
I am concerned though they mentioned a future overhaul for demonology, but none for shamans. I just hope they dont forget it...again.

[freddy090909]

Thought I'd add that here, just in case it's missed. I personally wouldn't miss UE. Hitting a spell for a buff never felt very rewarding.
I am concerned though they mentioned a future overhaul for demonology, but none for shamans. I just hope they dont forget it...again.

I will miss the on-demand speed boost that UE gives now, but would still prefer that it go away (I'm also interested to see what we could get over unleashed fury). I wonder if they'd be able to drop ghost wolf off the GCD to make up for losing UE.

[Deleted]

Ah, you mean the movement speed increase?
Tons of sollutions for that, which I doubt we'll see any of. A mobility centered talent row instead of the totem one would be the most often suggested from these forums, I believe. Would be nice if GW saw several buffs, looking at how much better druids have it with cat/travel.

They could make it so that for the first 10 or so seconds that you're in gw form, you can use all your skills without breaking the effect. Making it undispellable would be nice also. Maybe a little more +speed, as 30 is kinda low.

They could add something like beast displacer for GW.
They could add a leap (air or feral spirit/gw related)
They could add a charge

I would really love enh to take up the spiritual theme more, adding to Feral Spirits. Enh Ascendence could fuse the shaman with the wolf spirit, giving him the form of a spectral worgen, fighting in a similar manner as claws of shirvallah druids.

Soooo many things on my enh wishlist, I could write a bible -_-
*Alert, code red, suggestions alarm*
->buff mobility (gap closer(s) for enh, escapes for ele) => mobility talent tier
->a dmg reset for pvp
->more comfortable/less rng selfheal for non-resto
->a single really strong ability would be nice to look forward too, wether it is a super strong LL, or SS couple with worthwhile WF procs. dunno, atm nothing stands out
->a lot of work needed on the enh aoe front. MT/FET/SM/CL/FN...it's simply to much. The way SM works is unacceptable. Standing right in the middle of 5 mobs, but my totems decides to fire at a single monster 30y away not in combat :trollface:
Totems dont grant credit for a kill? change that! Get rid of CL. Merge improved SM mechanic with MT. Maybe change the FN mechanic into a cleave? LL will hit up to three targets afflicted with FS?
->a finisher maybe?
->an ice themed ability (preferably melee ability) that actually matters, and remove shared cooldown and damage from frost shock. ice ability could be above finisher (icicle impaler => encase both forearms with ice, impaling the target. cd reduced/reset on low hp targets)
->reintroduce actual synergy between abilities. SS debuff hardly does anything
-> make LS interesting again, maybe a dmg reflect/thorns effect that can kill players going mongoloid on you in arena? Update graphics into a badass whirl of lightning, rather than a boring ball rotating around you
-> freaking overhaul the entire totem system, no elemental restrictions, baseline throwing/relocating, distinguishing between totems (some immobile, some destroyable, some not usable while silenced, but not all, look at the individual totem).
-> make waterwalking = icy paths
-> maybe lower cd of wind shear again, it used to be a trademark strenght of us to pressure through interrupts
-> maybe allow purge to remove all dispellable buffs on target, but get a 20s+ cd or something. If I hit purge, I want the target to be pure, not slightly less dirty. NICHT NUR SAUBER, SONDERN REIN! (german insider)
-> make elemental blast replace LB, at least for enhancement. significantly buff its damage for us, remove cd, maybe replace buff with a synergy, or make it a stackable thing you want to keep up, and make selfheal less of a damage sacrifice

[Pantsless]

Omg Omanley is back! Where have you been, good to see you back on the shaman forums.

[Deleted]

Omg Omanley is back! Where have you been, good to see you back on the shaman forums.

Thanks for having me back . Unfortunately unable to access my old account, pw no longer working and such so I made a new one. Couldn't go the normal route of recovering it as it was still linked to my old e-mail adress, which I no longer can access either, so yeah -_-. Didn't really have all that much incentive to post anymore either during the time my acc stopped working, as it was the time blizz put the nail on the shaman beta coffin around that time.

Didn't play at all most of cata and entire mop, but returned somewhere around sylvester 14/15. Wasn't keen on playing enh, as I kept tabs on our development. Leveled it as my first 100 anyway, as I hadn't played anything else much for all those years. After weeks/months of not getting into anything much not raids nor pvp (spending time with achievements/garrison/dungeons/reputations and such), I rediscovered my hunter, and am plenty happy with it raiding brf hc(though enh was more fun back in wotlk).

Hunters are definately better designed at the moment, but it's hard to get passionate about them in the same way as I am about shamans.
It's definately worrying that even with my mm hunter (least mobile hunter spec), I feel more mobile than with my enh shaman, a melee spec.

[Deleted]

Ah, you mean the movement speed increase?
Tons of sollutions for that, which I doubt we'll see any of. A mobility centered talent row instead of the totem one would be the most often suggested from these forums, I believe. Would be nice if GW saw several buffs, looking at how much better druids have it with cat/travel.

They could make it so that for the first 10 or so seconds that you're in gw form, you can use all your skills without breaking the effect. Making it undispellable would be nice also. Maybe a little more +speed, as 30 is kinda low.

They could add something like beast displacer for GW.
They could add a leap (air or feral spirit/gw related)
They could add a charge

I would really love enh to take up the spiritual theme more, adding to Feral Spirits. Enh Ascendence could fuse the shaman with the wolf spirit, giving him the form of a spectral worgen, fighting in a similar manner as claws of shirvallah druids.

Soooo many things on my enh wishlist, I could write a bible -_-
*Alert, code red, suggestions alarm*
->buff mobility (gap closer(s) for enh, escapes for ele) => mobility talent tier
->a dmg reset for pvp
->more comfortable/less rng selfheal for non-resto
->a single really strong ability would be nice to look forward too, wether it is a super strong LL, or SS couple with worthwhile WF procs. dunno, atm nothing stands out
->a lot of work needed on the enh aoe front. MT/FET/SM/CL/FN...it's simply to much. The way SM works is unacceptable. Standing right in the middle of 5 mobs, but my totems decides to fire at a single monster 30y away not in combat :trollface:
Totems dont grant credit for a kill? change that! Get rid of CL. Merge improved SM mechanic with MT. Maybe change the FN mechanic into a cleave? LL will hit up to three targets afflicted with FS?
->a finisher maybe?
->an ice themed ability (preferably melee ability) that actually matters, and remove shared cooldown and damage from frost shock. ice ability could be above finisher (icicle impaler => encase both forearms with ice, impaling the target. cd reduced/reset on low hp targets)
->reintroduce actual synergy between abilities. SS debuff hardly does anything
-> make LS interesting again, maybe a dmg reflect/thorns effect that can kill players going mongoloid on you in arena? Update graphics into a badass whirl of lightning, rather than a boring ball rotating around you
-> freaking overhaul the entire totem system, no elemental restrictions, baseline throwing/relocating, distinguishing between totems (some immobile, some destroyable, some not usable while silenced, but not all, look at the individual totem).
-> make waterwalking = icy paths
-> maybe lower cd of wind shear again, it used to be a trademark strenght of us to pressure through interrupts
-> maybe allow purge to remove all dispellable buffs on target, but get a 20s+ cd or something. If I hit purge, I want the target to be pure, not slightly less dirty. NICHT NUR SAUBER, SONDERN REIN! (german insider)
-> make elemental blast replace LB, at least for enhancement. significantly buff its damage for us, remove cd, maybe replace buff with a synergy, or make it a stackable thing you want to keep up, and make selfheal less of a damage sacrifice

Its like some people didnt play during WoD beta, where we suggested stuff like this en mass. >_<

[Deleted]

Its like some people didnt play during WoD beta, where we suggested stuff like this en mass. >_<

Was among those posters. I didn't play in any beta though, never had any invites back when I still played before quitting in cata. All of these suggestions are several years old, posted by my original account from tbc to wod beta times.

I dont think there's many (if any at all) who posted as many shaman(enh specific) related suggestions on these forums in that time span as me.

[Deleted]

Was among those posters. I didn't play in any beta though, never had any invites back when I still played before quitting in cata. All of these suggestions are several years old, posted by my original account from tbc to wod beta times.

I dont think there's many (if any at all) who posted as many shaman(enh specific) related suggestions on these forums in that time span as me.

Yeah, you are great. I actually meant the person you quoted, if it didnt come through.

Dont want to trigger a discussion on what have been already said, since Blizzard is very likely to forget what they are saying. This Q&A could be used to confirm a Shaman overhaul for the next expansion, but it looks like demo locks and shadows will get their 2-4th overhaul before shaman even got one.

[L3fty]

----
Your healing surge healed You 30986 Nature.
Your healing surge healed You 12521 Nature. (Multistrike)
Your healing surge healed You 12521 Nature. (Multistrike)
----
Your healing surge healed You 30917 Nature.
Your healing surge healed You 12521 Nature. (Multistrike)
----

/rolleyes if you wish, but to me healing myself for 95k+ in 2.4s has come in handy during progress. With full raid buffs this is often around 110k (over 33% of my hp). Considering most Ele's are running with +50% Multistrike, HS is a useful spell. I would like it to be stronger at baseline (30k is weak), but again, I don't think that saying some of our toolkit is useful deserves mocking without reasoning.

When I use HS and survive, it feels good, I feel like i'm using my class properly. But to be clear, I only use it if we are a healer down or out of position etc:

I've used it during Tantrums, Blazing Radiance (+Firestorm), Stone Breath, Burning stacks (and more).

What I believe is we need a standout strength. We are OK at most things but we don't excel at any. So instead of loling at the class completely let's have a real talk about what we NEED.

I can see the UF being brought up, personally I would support its removal. Or a flat buff to Unleash Fury.

[Deleted]

@L3fty: I didn't specify, so it's natural you wouldn't know, but a lot of my points aim at pvp.

I am of the opinion that when designing a new ability, it should be designed in a way it is useful in pvp first, as there are more aspects which can ruin a feature than there are in pve.

Take selfhealing for example: If you drain ele/enh (which wont happen in pve, but is common in pvp), it'll be easy to prevent those heals from happening. Enh relies on ppm procs to get their heals of (for which they also need uptime), and ele can be interrupted and is bad in kiting. Result => easily drained. We also lack a dmg/pressure reset, or significant mitigation. SBT and HST can be destroyed and are rather weak for it, and SR is a drop in the ocean when faced with murderous oneshot macros and the like.

I'm not sure every class needs a niche (in pve), because essentially the fields a spec can shine in are essentially: 1)pve single target, 2)pve cleave, 3)pve aoe, 4)bg, 5)arena and soloing stuff(includes old content). A must for any dps spec is competitive single target, and being good enough at either 2) or 3) to make up for the other. It should be good at either 4) or 5) at the very least, preferrably both, having an alternative spec for the other. Lastly 6), soloing stuff out there in the old, including group quests, old content, achievements, strong opponents.

That said:
-Enh single target started out horribly in WoD (and 6.2 outlook isn't very sexy either) which I think is unforgivably since you only need to change numbers. As long as you have fights where you can shine in single target if you're playing well, I wont complain about numbers in general. Mechanics-wise though, enh is a trash heap, imo. They severely improved on LL and SS+ EotE, but ST/MT/LB/CL/Shocks, there's just so much "meh". WF has lost meaning (hopefully the trinket is a sign for a return to older days) and FT is just not noticable AT ALL.
-Cleave doesn't exist, simple as that. If we can pull our weight well enough with st and aoe, I can live with that, though there are warriors and other specs also, who are good in all three, so I wouldn't mind having it too ;p
-Aoe is good, but much to complex. Looking at simplistic mages and locks up there, I dont see why we have 8 skills involved in our aoe (fs/ll/fn/ue + mt/fet/sm + cl), not counting ss for generating msw procs for cl even. When I looked into the enh dps guide here on mmo-c, my head begun to swam at the dozens upon dozens of little rules and aspects that influcence your performance. The fs/ll/fn/ue mechanic alone is very complex, depending on how monsters move, fs duration left, which target to spread off, how much hp it has left etc etc. Comparing that to hunters is just laughable. It's relaxing to start a class/spec, read in on it, and getting the hang of it to a satisfying degree within 2 raid ids.
-Both bg and arena are out of the question. Blizz made sure to design us in a "not suited for pvp" way. The change to tremor (seriously? we have to place it before the fear? against instants? with a 1m cd? *facepalm*) , the incoming nerf to SBT (already badly design, lets raise our game and make it worse with 5hp) and the crappy-from-the-get-go-design of SBT tell a tale. Oh, and Hex no longer instant via msw.
-And our aoe is just not suitable for older content. MT doesn't count for loot, and gets destroyed along with LM. CL requires charges or else is slowly casted...go ele instead...and our fs/ll/fn mechanic doesn't work because target die before the spread in wotlk, or even cata.

So enh comes down to pve ST and AOE, and are mechanically a failure there too. The only thing that remains are numbers and we're not all that great there either.

*sigh*