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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer NuLogic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    We MUST undo the Obama mistake to pull out and go back in. All over again. Because its a breeding ground for terrorists. Nothing has changed. Its a breeding ground for terrorists and they'll just hit us AGAIN until we invade and STAY THERE to fix the place. Period.

    There is no option to pack up, leave, and the place just calms down and stops attacking us. You know that, right? What Obama did was insane.

    - - - Updated - - -

    What is gonna happen is another group of terrorists trained in Iraq / Afghanistan are gonna bomb a major US city again. We will know in our hearts that its Obama's fault that it happened because we pulled out of there before the job was done. But no-one will be allowed to say it. In fact, anyone who does will get shouted down. The truth will not be allowed. Then we'll eventually find ourselves back there for round 3.

    That's the future.
    Getting involved again will just spawn more extremists.

  2. #42
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Well to be honest we never really lost a conflict "militarily" only politically. Whats irritating is that we get sent to war, and told to fight with our hands tied behind our backs.

    It always has interested me, with our current conflicts, on just how much the American mentality has changed over the last 70 years. In WW2 We fire bombed german and Japanese cities, killing tens of thousands, and didn't bat an eye, now if we kill people who, morally, are just as repugnant as the Nazi's, with a drone strike people lose their minds.
    Well, I think some people are losing their minds just to lose their minds, and some people are losing their minds because they take the letter of the law, and how we apply military force very serious.


    I do NOT think the NSA for example gives a shit whats on my hard drive, nor do I think driving on the way to work, Ill be taken out by a drone, I seriously doubt my life is worth the fuel or payload or resources to do that.


    BUT, it does, deserve an answer to like when and where we us it and the legalities. It's annoying yet, but Democrat or Republican, I don't really want just one guy making those kinds of calls with NO accountability.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  3. #43
    Volunteers are different from draftees, plain and simple. One has a choice on whether or not to participate, the other doesn't.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    Let me explain some things to you:

    1) As is transparently obvious to everyone else in the world, regardless of political persuasion, nationality or sympathies the Iraq war was a war started by an oil baron for oil. You were the oil baron's lackeys.

    2) You and your friends killed a bunch of innocent people. There was a consistent level of cowardice in US military action which placed soldier's lives above that of the civillian population. For those reason you command very little respect amongst your military allies and contempt and disdadin amongst your enemies.

    3) You were unsuccessful in subduing an insurgency which was, in relative terms, vastly underequipped and outgunned. You had aerial supremacy and technology several generations ahead of the insurgents. A trillion dollars was spent and wasted.
    Now, apparently, you want even more of the same shit to fight a much more formidably force than the one you couldn't defeat initially.

    4) You expect handouts for veterans, but soldiers tend to be right-wing when it comes to everyone else. There's a major level of hypocrisy there. Either you believe in welfare for all that need it, or you don't.
    fun times where to start.....

    1. The Iraqi conflict was voted by a bipartisan congress, by both sides of the isle. If it was just about "oil" it would have been much easier, we could have just built FOB's around oil rich areas, and landmined the entire area around it, furthermore there wouldn't be dick the rest of the world could do about it.

    2. I don't think the word "innocent" means what you think it means. Our ROE never told us to kill anyone other then folks who were attempting to kill Coalition forces, or damage equipment.

    3. An insurgency that wasn't above using the mentally handicapped, and women as suicide bombers, threatened and intimidated local civilian populace, and who were attempting to initiate a seculartarian civil war.

    4. Veterans benefits are earned and guaranteed through contractual agreement. I guess you think pensions given to public sector workers are also welfare? We only want what we are owed and promised.

    Lastly, you being a UK citizen, have no position to talk regarding American Veteran benefits. to that we give you a giant middle finger.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Well to be honest we never really lost a conflict "militarily" only politically. Whats irritating is that we get sent to war, and told to fight with our hands tied behind our backs.

    It always has interested me, with our current conflicts, on just how much the American mentality has changed over the last 70 years. In WW2 We fire bombed german and Japanese cities, killing tens of thousands, and didn't bat an eye, now if we kill people who, morally, are just as repugnant as the Nazi's, with a drone strike people lose their minds.
    Apples and oranges.

    Nazi Germany was fighting a declared war of aggression against its opponents.

    Iraq wasn't. Iraq was invaded under false pretenses and the absolute majority of the population did not support the Iraqi war effort.

    The following insurgency was a consequence of the dismantling of the security services and the government of Iraq without any immediate subsitute.

    At the end of World War 2, occupation authorities didn't disband the German security forces. The police and the military police of Germany remained armed in occupied territories until they could be replaced by other adequate security arrangements. For some strange mystical reason this little tidbit slipped the minds of the occupation authorities in Iraq.

    Iraq being made up of a complicated mesh of religious and tribal structures was a cluster fuck waiting to happen. Beating it militarily was easy. Ruling it tho...that's another topic. And fire bombing Baghadad wouldn't have helped the situation in any tangible way.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    Here's some food for thought: this past week, Ramadi was captured by Isis. Two of my closest friends, fellow Marines both, died in the (second) Battle of Ramadi in '06, trying to secure the city from insurgents. And here we are, 2 days from Memorial Day, already forgetting what their sacrifice was for. As a nation, this country has allowed every wound we took, every street we fought for, every life we saved, to simply...vanish. Far from remembering us, you have watched as another tide of hatred and death sweeps over all that we fought to achieve.

    And your reaction to this? Petty political squabbles. Think about that the next time you guys try to score points in here, or call each other childish names, or demand that this party or the other get out. It doesn't matter if you agree with the war, if you're liberal or conservative, etc. What matters is that this country needs to collectively accept responsibility for what it began and then finish seeing it through. To do any less is to dishonor what we fought and bled for, to render our sacrifices hollow and in vain.
    How do you see this ending of the U.S. goes back? How long should we stay? How many people need to die? And at the end will it be worth it?

    I doubt it. Because once we leave it will go to hell again. Short of taking over the country and breeding their people into Americanism I don't see what another 10 or 20 years will change.

    We trained them. We trained them DAMN well. I have seen Iraqi special forces operate. Those guys were fucking tight. I have done patrols with them. Met a few that were awesome soldiers. Unfortunately , most were bitches.

    Trained by the best army in the world
    Given cutting edge equipment
    Given support and guidance after the fact
    10 ducking years of help. Someone would be halfway through retirement if they jones the army at the start. And we send kids to war after 4 months of training.

    And you think going again and doing it all over will change anything?aorey but I don't.

    Holy shit spellcheck I hate you!!
    Last edited by Rhine101; 2015-05-24 at 03:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    No she shouldn't be removed she is an elected official and hasn't broken any laws just hurt some people's feelings.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Apples and oranges.

    Nazi Germany was fighting a declared war of aggression against its opponents.

    Iraq wasn't. Iraq was invaded under false pretenses and the absolute majority of the population did not support the Iraqi war effort.

    The following insurgency was a consequence of the dismantling of the security services and the government of Iraq without any immediate subsitute.

    At the end of World War 2, occupation authorities didn't disband the German security forces. The police and the military police of Germany remained armed in occupied territories until they could be replaced by other adequate security arrangements. For some strange mystical reason this little tidbit slipped the minds of the occupation authorities in Iraq.

    Iraq being made up of a complicated mesh of religious and tribal structures was a cluster fuck waiting to happen. Beating it militarily was easy. Ruling it tho...that's another topic. And fire bombing Baghadad wouldn't have helped the situation in any tangible way.
    Well let me clear something up, im definitely not saying that firebombing Baghdad or any city would have been effective. What im saying is that back in WW2, Korea, or even Vietnam people weren't nearly as squeamish about casualties on the other side of the conflict.

    Now, we can drone strike a ISIS goon who spends his days beheading and burning people in cages, and folks get upset if his cousin was in the car with him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhine101 View Post
    How do you see this ending of the U.S. goes back? How long should we stay? How many people need to die? And at the end will it be worth it?

    I doubt it. Because once we leave it will go to hell again. Short of taking over the country and breeding their people into Americanism I don't see what another 10 or 20 years will change.

    We trained them. We trained them DAMN well. I have seen Iraqi special forces operate. Those guys were fucking tight. I have done patrols with them. Met a few that were awesome soldiers. Unfortunately , most were bitches.

    Trained by the best army in the world
    Given cutting edge equipment
    Given support and guidance after the fact
    10 ducking years of help. Someone would be halfway through retirement if they jones the army at the start. And we send kids to war after 4 months of training.

    And you think going again and doing it all over will change anything?aorey but I don't.
    My experience was abysmal as well.

    I trained IA personal on proper procedures to search people and vehicles for explosives and other contraband. They just...didn't give a shit. I'm not surprised that they retreat at the first sign of conflict, really not surprised at all.

  8. #48
    Ramadi was captured by Isis. Two of my closest friends, fellow Marines both, died in the (second) Battle of Ramadi in '06, trying to secure the city from insurgents.
    Can't the Iraqis defend the city from Insurgents themselves? America didn't occupy Iraq long enough? I suppose just a few more years and they'd have been able to stand on their own feet. Just a few more years.... right?

    But nobody wanted to occupy Iraq for decades when the initial invasion took place. Nobody on either side of politics. Nobody in the military either. But you seem to be saying that this is what America should have done. Occupy Iraq in force for how long - 20 years, more?

    Now, we can drone strike a ISIS goon who spends his days beheading and burning people in cages, and folks get upset if his cousin was in the car with him.
    I don't see that at all. Its only when say a wedding party gets blown up by a drone, or a couple innocent shepherds, that theres any kind of outrage. Mostly the US gets a free pass for drone strikes on terrorists and ISIS leaders, even if there is a bit of collateral damage in the process.
    Last edited by Astronom; 2015-05-24 at 03:35 AM.

  9. #49
    Why didnt we invade pakistan

    Weapons of mass destruction since 1974
    Controlled by radical islamist
    Harbored osama binladen that perpetrated then 9/11 attacks
    Known to do lucrative deals with islamic terrorist

    We invaded iraq when pakistan was right next door!

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    My experience was abysmal as well.

    I trained IA personal on proper procedures to search people and vehicles for explosives and other contraband. They just...didn't give a shit. I'm not surprised that they retreat at the first sign of conflict, really not surprised at all.


    The Iraqi's bought into this shit in the tens of thousands. This is the annoying part.

    Iraq had a military that was capable to hold the country under tabs. Most of those officers and soldiers ended up in the ranks of the Insurgency and now in the ranks of ISIS.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2015-05-24 at 03:28 AM.

  11. #51
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    The Iraqi's bought into this shit in the tens of thousands. This is the annoying part.

    Iraq had a military that was capable to hold the country under tabs. Most of those officers and soldiers ended up in the ranks of the Insurgency and now in the ranks of ISIS.
    WOW! That is beyond fucked UP!
    Last edited by Doctor Amadeus; 2015-05-24 at 03:33 AM.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer theostrichsays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Apples and oranges.

    Nazi Germany was fighting a declared war of aggression against its opponents.

    Iraq wasn't. Iraq was invaded under false pretenses and the absolute majority of the population did not support the Iraqi war effort.

    The following insurgency was a consequence of the dismantling of the security services and the government of Iraq without any immediate subsitute.

    At the end of World War 2, occupation authorities didn't disband the German security forces. The police and the military police of Germany remained armed in occupied territories until they could be replaced by other adequate security arrangements. For some strange mystical reason this little tidbit slipped the minds of the occupation authorities in Iraq.

    Iraq being made up of a complicated mesh of religious and tribal structures was a cluster fuck waiting to happen. Beating it militarily was easy. Ruling it tho...that's another topic. And fire bombing Baghadad wouldn't have helped the situation in any tangible way.
    Gallup poles disagree with the overwhelming majority disagreeing. Unless I'm reading it wrong.
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seve...inst-iraq.aspx
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelhander View Post
    Thank you for mansplaining how opinions work.
    Also you're wrong, the people who agree with you are wrong, and you're probably ugly.
    Ever been so angry at everyone on the internet you tell a woman she is mansplaining?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by theostrichsays View Post
    Gallup poles disagree with the overwhelming majority disagreeing. Unless I'm reading it wrong.
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seve...inst-iraq.aspx
    Reading comprehension.

    Nazi Germany was fighting a declared war of aggression against its opponents.

    Iraq wasn't. Iraq was invaded under false pretenses and the absolute majority of the population did not support the Iraqi war effort.
    The Iraqis didn't support the war effort of their government.

    Yes I know that the majority of the American population supported the Iraq War at the time.

    That happened because the US was riding high on the post 9/11 "Kill em all" sentiments, which meant that they ate up the whole WMD narrative as it was served to them by the administration at the time which was itself riding high on the post 9/11 approval ratings.

  14. #54
    What we DO need is an precision response force and a few hangar's worth of drones to disincentivize new terror groups from forming and fighting.
    Looking at what ISIS has done, I agree with you. Would a few hundred soldiers and some drones would be sufficient though? And wouldn't even this need the full approval of the Iraqi government? If I remember correctly the Iraqi government wanted all US forces out of the country.

    Most people in this poll thought the war would be over in under six months. What they meant by "war" is open to debate though. Technically the war was over in a month, but I've seen the occupation and counter-insurgency after that and up to withdrawal called the "war" too. Probably most people thought it would be rehash of 1991. A quick war lasting a few weeks, and then a very quick and thorough US withdrawal.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    Most of these revisionist suffer from the echo effect. They spend all their time listening to opinions they agree with and aren't challenged on, so they unfortunately only remember hearing everyone agree with them.

    I have little concern for the opinions of people too craven to do anything of meaning with their lives; to never be apart of something greater. People that live in the first world and have never gone a day without eating, been in a fight or suffer anything more than a verbal insult, truly are clueless. The world is a bad place and without defenses, someone bigger than you will take what you have. If it wasn't for armies, specifically the US, the social safety net and modern comfort of the West wouldn't exist. It's because <1% of the nation is willing to put on the uniform in lieu of personal comfort, that everyone else gets to spend their time fucking around and freaking out over things as unimportant as the face on currency, and who didn't get the cake they wanted.

    The idea of actually having to fight for their life or kill another person is as real to them as the pixels on their Call of Duty. They live in a bubble and have no idea that a bunch of bad people are trying to poke it, if it wasn't for a lot of mostly good people standing between them with a gun. When your most solemn moment in life is when your pet cat died at the ripe old age of 19, you're not really equipped to handle reality of the world.
    What are you ranting about?

    You are confusing the condemnation for the war for condemnation of the soldiers who served in the war. Yes there are some fucking morons who can't make that separation, but people by rule aren't condemning the soldiers who served in the war, but the politics and the politicians who brought about that war, which was by a massive massive disaster.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    Most of these revisionist suffer from the echo effect. They spend all their time listening to opinions they agree with and aren't challenged on, so they unfortunately only remember hearing everyone agree with them.

    I have little concern for the opinions of people too craven to do anything of meaning with their lives; to never be apart of something greater. People that live in the first world and have never gone a day without eating, been in a fight or suffer anything more than a verbal insult, truly are clueless. The world is a bad place and without defenses, someone bigger than you will take what you have. If it wasn't for armies, specifically the US, the social safety net and modern comfort of the West wouldn't exist. It's because <1% of the nation is willing to put on the uniform in lieu of personal comfort, that everyone else gets to spend their time fucking around and freaking out over things as unimportant as the face on currency, and who didn't get the cake they wanted.

    The idea of actually having to fight for their life or kill another person is as real to them as the pixels on their Call of Duty. They live in a bubble and have no idea that a bunch of bad people are trying to poke it, if it wasn't for a lot of mostly good people standing between them with a gun. When your most solemn moment in life is when your pet cat died at the ripe old age of 19, you're not really equipped to handle reality of the world.
    Well said brother.

    Without the US military, the constitution is just a piece of paper with fancy ideas

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer theostrichsays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Reading comprehension.



    The Iraqis didn't support the war effort of their government.

    Yes I know that the majority of the American population supported the Iraq War at the time.

    That happened because the US was riding high on the post 9/11 "Kill em all" sentiments, which meant that they ate up the whole WMD narrative as it was served to them by the administration at the time which was itself riding high on the post 9/11 approval ratings.
    You're saying reading comprehension for you wording your post vaguely/poorly? Gg I guess
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelhander View Post
    Thank you for mansplaining how opinions work.
    Also you're wrong, the people who agree with you are wrong, and you're probably ugly.
    Ever been so angry at everyone on the internet you tell a woman she is mansplaining?

  18. #58
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Well said brother.

    Without the US military, the constitution is just a piece of paper with fancy ideas
    Without the constitution the US military is just a bunch of lunatic criminals spreading death and destruction around the world.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    Without the constitution the US military is just a bunch of lunatic criminals spreading death and destruction around the world.
    Awww, we have to resort to flaming now?

    When your opinion matters I'll give a shit, till then....

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    Without the constitution the US military is just a bunch of lunatic criminals spreading death and destruction around the world.
    I don't think so. They would still be paid and supported by the govt. They wouldn't be ISIS
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    No she shouldn't be removed she is an elected official and hasn't broken any laws just hurt some people's feelings.

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