Veterans frustrated by presidential debate on Iraq war

[Theinquisition]

http://news.yahoo.com/veterans-frust...144552710.html


Veterans of the Iraq War have been watching in frustration as Republican presidential contenders distance themselves from the decision their party enthusiastically supported to invade that country.



Some veterans say they long ago concluded their sacrifice was in vain, and are annoyed that a party that lobbied so hard for the war is now running from it. Others say they still believe their mission was vital, regardless of what the politicians say. And some find the gotcha question being posed to the politicians — Knowing what we know now, would you have invaded? — an insult in itself.

"Do-overs don't happen in real life," said Gregory Diacogiannis, 30, who served as an army sniper in Baghdad trying to spot militants laying roadside bombs and chased high-value targets in the city of Baqouba. "I have trouble with the question itself just because it lends itself to disregarding the sacrifices that have been made."

Diacogiannis left the army in 2008, but says even now he feels such a strong attachment to Iraq that he's thought about going back to fight as the country has plunged into chaos since U.S. troops left.

The war became a campaign issue when likely presidential contender Jeb Bush was asked about the invasion ordered by his brother, former President George W. Bush. After days of questioning, Jeb Bush said that in light of what's now known — that Saddam Hussein did not have WMD stockpiles — he would not have invaded.

Other possible Republican hopefuls including New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, Sen. Marco Rubio, Sen. Ted Cruz and Ohio Gov. John Kasich all later gave similar responses.






Aaron Hinde, 33, is appalled at what he feels the U.S. invasion did to Iraq. He served there in 2003, mostly in the volatile northern city of Mosul and became active in the anti-war movement after leaving the army in 2004.

He's glad Republicans are being held accountable for the invasion, but says that answer's been known for a long time.

"It's a legitimate question to ask and a legitimate answer should be an unequivocal no," he said.

Marla Keown, who drove trucks in Iraq for a year during her time in the Army Reserve, said it's taken too long for politicians to admit the mistake of a war that killed 4,491 U.S. troops and left countless Iraqis dead.

"It's hard to see the good in war in general - let alone a war that everyone just now is realizing we shouldn't have done," said Keown, 34, who now works as a photographer in Denver.






But many vets, regardless of whether WMD was found or not, found legitimate reasons for being in Iraq. John Kriesel lost both his legs when a 200-pound bomb went off underneath his Humvee outside the western city of Fallujah. He's written a book called "Still Standing: The Story of SSG John Kriesel" detailing what he went through.

He said he's proud of what he and his unit did in Iraq to make their area safer. He speaks fondly of Iraqi children he encountered and said he'd do it again in a "heartbeat." So many questions, he said, like whether to invade Iraq or not, are easier to answer in hindsight.

"I think it's naive to just assume that we can just wave this magic wand and know what we would do in that situation," Kriesel said.

The discussion comes at a particularly fraught time for veterans, who have watched Iraq steadily descend into chaos. In recent days, Islamic State militants routed Iraqi government troops to take control of the city of Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province, despite American airstrikes designed to help the Iraqi forces.

Kevin McCulley, a former army medic, said Iraqis told him about their struggles under Saddam and he feels there were good reasons to get rid of the longtime dictator. He feels the emphasis really shouldn't be on the decision to invade but on whether the U.S. should have stayed past its 2011 departure date to secure the gains made. Many vets blame President Obama — not Bush — for the current state of affairs, saying he was in too much of a hurry to withdraw.




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"There's a huge issue for me about why we left Iraq," he said.

On Friday, Democratic presidential contender Hillary Rodham Clinton said despite the militants' gains, U.S. ground forces should not be sent back to Iraq.

Clinton has previously called her support for the invasion a mistake.

"A mistake doesn't sum up the gravity of that decision," said Matt Howard, a Marine twice deployed to Iraq who now works with the group Iraq Veterans Against the War. He said many vets have been frustrated by the "flip-flopping," not just of the Republican candidates, but of Clinton as well.

Mike Barbero, a retired general who served three tours in Iraq, said he isn't sure the value of the hypothetical questions being asked of the candidates and would rather they be pressed on their criteria for sending troops into a potential future battle.






"What are your criteria for putting young Americans in harm's way? What lessons learned did you take away from Iraq and Afghanistan? Then you're getting into the mind of a future commander-in-chief," he said.

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I'm in agreement with a lot of this. Many Veterans that I speak with are disappointed with both sides of the isle. The republicans who pushed so hard for war in Iraq, and now distance themselves from that decision, and the Democrats that were so quick to negotiate our withdrawal. We watch as Iraq falls back into chaos, and a lot of the work we did to help rebuild the nation fall into disarray.


What do you think fellow MMOC-OT Vets? How do you feel about how Iraq has descended into chaos? Personally, It makes me feel hollow about the time I spent there. All that time away from family and friends for what?

[theostrichsays]

To be fair Tony, you should know as a fellow veteran that no matter what politicians do, veterans are going to be pissed off and disgruntled.
The GT score really just gauges our likelihood to wear bandanas and and cargo pants, while complaining about everything. The more likely you're to do that the lower your GT score, thus limiting job selection.

All in sarcasm but seriously as vets we both know everything is a lose lose situation, for all parties involved.

[THE Bigzoman]

[Theinquisition]

To be fair Tony, you should know as a fellow veteran that no matter what politicians do, veterans are going to be pissed off and disgruntled.
The GT score really just gauges our likelihood to wear bandanas and and cargo pants, while complaining about everything. The more likely you're to do that the lower your GT score, thus limiting job selection.

All in sarcasm but seriously as vets we both know everything is a lose lose situation, for all parties involved.

Of course brother, I was just curious how other vets here feel about it. I spent almost 4 years of my life there, I feel like I have a vested intrest in what happens. Sucks to watch everything we sweat and bled for slip away.

[Theinquisition]

lol


MMMM HMMMM

[Deleted]

What gets me is the keyboard warriors that are crying out that we should do something about ISIS when those same people were slagging off the troops only a year ago for butting in, fucking hypocrites. Anyone that thinks we should go back in needs to go to their nearest recruitment office at the nearest opportunity.

[Stormdash]

It is a trap they are walking into, again under the delusion that Republicans needs to walk, talk, or act like Democrats to win despite that never having actually worked before. I didn't agree with the decision to invade, but once you are in you better be in to win. They need to get on message, the last thing GOP hopefuls need to do is break faith with one of the most reliable likely voter demographics they have, the military.

[Endus]

Just to be clear, before I lay in, I recognize I'm responding to the article author, not you, Tony, since you only wrote the last bits.

And some find the gotcha question being posed to the politicians — Knowing what we know now, would you have invaded? — an insult in itself.

That isn't a fucking "gotcha" question. It's asking them if, with better intel today, they still think their decision back then was the right one. Not in the context of what they knew then, but what they know today. A "gotcha" question is one where you expect to catch them in a lie; this is a really damn simple question, asking the candidates to justify their position, whatever it may be. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer, it's about HOW you answer. If you stammer and act like it's a "gotcha" because you don't know what lie to tell, then the issue is that you're a deceitful snake and have been caught at it.

Nor am I saying Republicans are all lying snakes; I don't care which way they lean on that question, as long as they have an answer, one that's consistent with their position.

But many vets, regardless of whether WMD was found or not, found legitimate reasons for being in Iraq. John Kriesel lost both his legs when a 200-pound bomb went off underneath his Humvee outside the western city of Fallujah. He's written a book called "Still Standing: The Story of SSG John Kriesel" detailing what he went through.

Just as a point of distinction; there's a big difference between a vet who feels an emotional need to feel his sacrifice and loss was justified, and a politician trying to rationally explain why all that sacrifice was necessary. I have no issue with vets trying to find reasons to accept the circumstances of their experience, especially with a war as fractious as the Iraq war, but that isn't remotely comparable to asking a politician who didn't sacrifice a damn thing to explain their position, rationally.

[Attackrabbit]

Others say they still believe their mission was vital, regardless of what the politicians say.

Must be nice to be that delusional

[Doctor Amadeus]

It is a trap they are walking into, again under the delusion that Republicans needs to walk, talk, or act like Democrats to win despite that never having actually worked before. I didn't agree with the decision to invade, but once you are in you better be in to win. They need to get on message, the last thing GOP hopefuls need to do is break faith with one of the most reliable likely voter demographics they have, the military.

Like Vietnam?

What Conflicts have we actually won militarily since the 2nd World War Besides Desert Storm. You mean once we made an incredibly fucking stupid mistake, we should keep forging ahead on a losing battle at all cost. Not actually that is the kind of dumb shit that actually not only loses wars, but waste resources and lives. Cut our fucking loses, learn from the past, and stop trying to fucking police and manipulate other regions of the world, fix our own country and problems first.

[Kraenen]

What gets me is the keyboard warriors that are crying out that we should do something about ISIS when those same people were slagging off the troops only a year ago for butting in, fucking hypocrites. Anyone that thinks we should go back in needs to go to their nearest recruitment office at the nearest opportunity.

not really hypocrites. they didn't want this mess of ISIS and a destroyed Iraq to happen in the first place, but now that it's happened the responsible thing to do (in their opinion) is to clean up the mess. i dont see where the hypocrisy comes from. and are you saying anyone who advocates military action has to be in the military?

[Scottyjscizzle]

Like Vietnam?

What Conflicts have we actually won militarily since the 2nd World War Besides Desert Storm. You mean once we made an incredibly fucking stupid mistake, we should keep forging ahead on a losing battle at all cost. Not actually that is the kind of dumb shit that actually not only loses wars, but waste resources and lives. Cut our fucking loses, learn from the past, and stop trying to fucking police and manipulate other regions of the world, fix our own country and problems first.

Son of a whore....did I just agree with Mall Security.

[Piglord]

Fuck them all, it's just political flip flopping to get elected.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I sure hope you didn't link that unfunny clip in reference to both Conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, because actually I am pretty damn sure plenty of people knew well in advance, they were a bad idea, but we went in anyways.

[Deleted]

not really hypocrites. they didn't want this mess of ISIS and a destroyed Iraq to happen in the first place, but now that it's happened the responsible thing to do (in their opinion) is to clean up the mess. and are you saying anyone who advocates military action has to be in the military?

I am saying that anyone that supports military action needs to be prepared to back it up with their own lives, I am sick to death of hearing the same old users on this forum (you know who I mean) slagging off the Military not one year ago and now they are crying out for action.

[Kraenen]

I am saying that anyone that supports military action needs to be prepared to back it up with their own lives, I am sick to death of hearing the same old users on this forum (you know who I mean) slagging off the Military not one year ago and now they are crying out for action.

which is pretty unreasonable, unless you want a government of soldiers which would suck. i actually dont know who you're talking about specifically but i know what you're talking about in general. still the point of being responsible with military action supersedes the point on hypocrisy.

[Independent voter]

Iraq War falls under foreign affairs and foreign affairs have never meant much to US voters, unless there's a draft. It's going to be pretty much a non-issue in the presidential election that's 18 months or so away.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Iraq, a country we attacked not only once but twice, and the 2nd time for almost no provocation, because we drew a line in the sand of "You are either with us or against us" beating a war drum that they had WMD's and Humanitarian Aide Effort. Nevermind we put Saddam in power in the first place and armed him against out other enemies.


All because we though,hey, stop a future terrorist attack, except Saddam had nothing to do with Osama, or any direct terrorist threat to the U.S, so we dropped Shock and Awe all over the place, for s hit we would have to spend trillions of dollars to fix, leaving a vaccum in Iraq which actually brought what we went in for to the very place that didn't have it, Islamic Terrorist.


As far as Afghanistan same shit, we did all this nonsense, only to replace one regime for another brutal regime, all in an attempt to let's face it get revenge for 9/11 and capture Osama, something that Bush himself and his administration eventually said "Ba Fuck it he is probably dead"


We wasted trillions of Dollars all the while our infrastructure crumble back in the States, and corporations previous under Bush ran rabid. The very last thing we needed to do was to double down on our stupid shit over the same irrational sentiment that got us into the mess we are in.


I don't care if you are wearing a uniform or not, past or present, if YOU honestly think we have been doing a whole bunch of good around the world for ourselves or anybody else, you need to wake up.



I have no doubt that if Republicans had their way, we would have been in another 3 or 5 other wars, North Korea, Iran, Russia, Syria, dude Enough!

[Mihalik]

It is understandable that veterans have mixed feelings on the issue. But the fact remains that the war itself was a blunder.

Now whether American troops should have remained in Iraq or not in what might have been perpetuity is a different question.

One must ask how many more lives and how many more dollars should have been sacrificed to try and unfuck the clusterfuck that is Iraq.

The sacrifice of those soldiers who fought in Iraq or died in Iraq should not be disrespected. But one can respect its veterans without supporting the politics behind the war.

The politics behind the Iraq war...the only words I can think of to describe it...vomit inducingly infuriating. Bush, Cheney and probably many members of that cabinet should literally be officially censored somehow. I'm not saying they should stand trial for misleading the American people or stand trial for crimes against humanity (tho they deserve to), but whenever I see their shitty smug faces (ESPECIALLY THAT FUCKWAD OF CHENEY) defending the death and the suffering they caused I have an urge to punch something.

[Stormdash]

Like Vietnam?

What Conflicts have we actually won militarily since the 2nd World War Besides Desert Storm. You mean once we made an incredibly fucking stupid mistake, we should keep forging ahead on a losing battle at all cost. Not actually that is the kind of dumb shit that actually not only loses wars, but waste resources and lives. Cut our fucking loses, learn from the past, and stop trying to fucking police and manipulate other regions of the world, fix our own country and problems first.

The men in arms won the Vietnam war; the men in suits who worked for politicians handed it right back. After the NVA ran into a buzzsaw when the Tet Offensive blew up in their face, had actual, whole, military victory been the obvious goal it would have been 20 years earlier, the US could have marched to Hanoi and ended it before man walked on the moon. Honestly, that's how it went in Iraq, too -- handcuffed rules of engagement, amorphous and ill-defined objectives, dictated by the political pressures on the homefront. Yet for all that, Iraq was a victory that even this administration was happy to claim... until we bailed out like we left the coffee machine plugged in.