MMORPGs and the big grind

[Deleted]

Really, i love MMORPGs. If there just wasnt "the big grind" in almost every single incarnation of that genre.

Why cant there just be MMORPGs which dont implement skinner boxes? Why cant there be MMORPGS which dont ask you to kill the same mobs over and over but just allow you to play meaningful game components which dont feel like you would want to collect a whole bunch of mobs and kill them with your biggest AOE skill?

I think a MMORPG which would skip content like that and which only would offer content whichs gameplay is engaging and / or special would be a real successfull game.

Dont get me wrong, i really call a grind just the meaningless same killing process or collecting the same ingredients for professions over and over. I think questing is no grind, as long a story is told. I also think dungeons or raids are no grind as long theres group dynamics that engage the player. I also think that PVP is no grind, as long you need to actually play your class.

But why the hell do most MMORPGs, even the big ones like WoW and SWTOR, treat their customers like rats in boxes that have to push buttons to receive food? Why cant they just focus on gameplay, or even components which allow players to add gameplay?

Only because it is so easy to implement?

[lawow74]

Because people equate value of a reward as directly proportional to the effort it takes to acquire it and/or the rarity associated with it.
Because extension of content shelf life is a key component of keeping players invested in the game, which is important whether you're on a sub, microtransaction, buy-to-play or mixed model.*
Because stimulating that reward response helps invest people into an activity, even if the reward is for trivial things.
Because the more they can get out of an investment into making content, the better the game will do.*

*Striking a balance between these two is something all MMO's struggle with, and it's not possible to satisfy everyone no matter how hard you try. You just have to keep the mean demographic going.

[Rukh]

Go play GW2.

[Sj]

MMORPGs had the grind because they were MMO versions of RPGs, which were based off of pen & paper RPGs, in which you primarily leveled up through combat. It's just part of the organic evolution of the RPG; MMOs are moving away from the grind as their audience changes.

Guild Wars 2 and The Secret World are good examples of MMOs moving away from the typical grind. The problem is, what do you replace the grind with? An MMO isn't cheap to develop.

[lawow74]

The problem is, what do you replace the grind with? An MMO isn't cheap to develop.

Exactly. You have to combat churn, i.e. the rate at which the game loses players vs. the rate at which it gains players. It's expected that content patches bring ups and downs in numbers, and releases have to be developed. Hence trying to maximize retention while minimizing cost. And even if you do an amazing job at it, you still have market competition.

[Fencers]

MMORPGs had the grind because they were MMO versions of RPGs, which were based off of pen & paper RPGs, in which you primarily leveled up through combat. It's just part of the organic evolution of the RPG; MMOs are moving away from the grind as their audience changes.

Guild Wars 2 and The Secret World are good examples of MMOs moving away from the typical grind. The problem is, what do you replace the grind with? An MMO isn't cheap to develop.

This is spot on, frankly.

Even GW2 and TSW which do not have typical limited linear player character progression have horizontal, free form grinds the player can undertake at their own choosing rather than obligatory grinds such as in Everquest or SWTOR, for example.

A "grind(s)" are a necessary function to keep one playing a game indefinitely. This mechanic isn't unique to MMOs either. Essentially from a design point of view any game with achievements, unlocks, secrets, score ranking and et cetera have a "grind" as the purpose of these mechanisms are to keep the player attention long term.

It would be unfeasible (and impossible currently) to create wholly new content over repetitious content. Doubly so for an MMO of any stripe. Even pseudo-MMOs with random area generation and random population fills can not produce content newly at the rate of consumption without a repetition mechanic or simply repeating a gameplay modus procedurally.

[Tomana]

But why the hell do most MMORPGs, even the big ones like WoW and SWTOR, treat their customers like rats in boxes that have to push buttons to receive food? Why cant they just focus on gameplay, or even components which allow players to add gameplay?

Because it is extremely complicated to design content that will last for a long time. This is why most single-player games have a life of 20-100 hours and are shelved. If you want a player to stay in a MMORPG, you have to have him invest time into the game. Especially if it's a sub-based MMORPG where it is a matter of life and death, literally.

Now, for PVP activities, it's easy - get arenas and GvG/RvR into the game and you're set for at least some time. Although, people can get bored doing that, too.

For PVE activities, it's a nearly impossible balance, further complicated by humans being irrational. If you give too much content or make people spend too much time in it, they will whine about having too much stuff to do. If you don't, they will whine about not having enough to do. And in any case, there is no way to design content faster than players consume it, unless you have an awesome RNG engine, which is more and more complicated to design in today's 3D high-def graphics.

This is why most MMORPG regulate the time it takes to do something. Not always with a grind by the way, sometimes it's done through straight sub time (EvE Online) or straightforward gating (WoW).

As for allowing players to add gameplay, this is more and more complicated from a technical standpoint. Not to mention balance and potential in-game economy issues.

[Lotus Victoria]

I think that grinding is necessary in RPG's. Look at Dark Souls, Breath of Fire, Diablo, etc. Most of them use grinding as a mechanic and, some are fun, to be fair.

[Halicia]

Most RPGs have grinds to show progress and provide the rewards of 'increased power', but MMOs specifically latch onto them since it takes longer to develop content than it takes a player to complete it.

Stuff like 'running to get armor repaired and filling up with spell components' may only take a minute to do, but the fact that the minute is repeated over and over and over helps hide the fact that the content you are going to play is a minute shorter.

Games with levelcaps end up highlighting 'grindy gameplay' simply because you can see the repetitiveness more obviously without being blinded by the shiny 'level up!' popups... even if its the same gameplay for most intents and purposes.

[Sj]

This is spot on, frankly.

Even GW2 and TSW which do not have typical limited linear player character progression have horizontal, free form grinds the player can undertake at their own choosing rather than obligatory grinds such as in Everquest or SWTOR, for example.

A "grind(s)" are a necessary function to keep one playing a game indefinitely. This mechanic isn't unique to MMOs either. Essentially from a design point of view any game with achievements, unlocks, secrets, score ranking and et cetera have a "grind" as the purpose of these mechanisms are to keep the player attention long term.

It would be unfeasible (and impossible currently) to create wholly new content over repetitious content. Doubly so for an MMO of any stripe. Even pseudo-MMOs with random area generation and random population fills can not produce content newly at the rate of consumption without a repetition mechanic or simply repeating a gameplay modus procedurally.

Exactly. You expanded on what I was getting at in way I couldn't find the right words for when I posted.

[melodramocracy]

MMO's are all about getting you to be a persistent participant. No matter what the premise of the MMO, a well populated world makes the game that much more effective. This is done by either making 'truly' completing the game impossible, or close to it, and / or providing players with a social setting where their interactions are part of the content itself.

[ro9ue]

I think the holy grail of MMO design is basically making the core combat and being in the world the draw itself so the grinds just happen as a by product.

EverQuest was insane with grinds, but there was something amazing about just logging in and exploring. The leveling system was sort of just guidelines on where to go, what to kill and what stuff you could use. But being in Norrath and sitting at the Freeport bank talking in /say to people was fun. Running through EC Tunnel and trading your Lamentation sword for something else was fun.

When MMO developers set up the grinds as the thing to do and let it get in the way of just being a part of the online world, that's when the grind sucks.

GW2 is the closest MMO that I've personally played where that recaptured that feeling. Sort of like here's the world, go and play. I'm almost never conscious of leveling only that there's an event here, something new to explore there, players congregated over here,e tc.

[May90]

MMOs compared to "regular" games are like years long movie series compared to standalone 2 hours long Hollywood movies: they are cheap, they are mainstream and they keep you consuming the product by hooking you. In regular games, the developers expect that you play through the game once, maybe a few times over the years, and that's it - as such, they try to make this relatively short period enjoyable for you, so you keep buying their games in the future. In MMOs, they want you to play the same game for years, and, since they cannot possibly offer so much high quality content, they fill the game with cheap, easy to implement grinds. Kill 5,000 kobolds to get that achievement? It takes a couple of minutes of coding on their part, and yet some people will play for months, trying to get that achievement. Little work, large gain - a dream of every businessman.

I myself do not play MMOs. I tried a few of them (WoW, SWTOR, GW2, Tera, Aion, Rift, Neverwinter) and found every single one to be an aimless time pool. But people play them, just like people watch those soap operas lasting years, sometimes decades, with the same cheap actors, little story, zero sense. Why people do that, I have no idea, but they do that regardless, so these kinds of games/movies/books never cease being profitable.

[melodramocracy]

I myself do not play MMOs. I tried a few of them (WoW, SWTOR, GW2, Tera, Aion, Rift, Neverwinter) and found every single one to be an aimless time pool. But people play them, just like people watch those soap operas lasting years, sometimes decades, with the same cheap actors, little story, zero sense. Why people do that, I have no idea, but they do that regardless, so these kinds of games/movies/books never cease being profitable.

The trick, which it seems to me very few MMO's get right these days, is to provide players with reasons to depend on each other. Build the social element, and that extends the content in a rather natural and transparent fashion. The genre works pretty poorly when it tries to promote 'play solo / quick sessions' gameplay, because there are numerous other genres that do that WAY better.

That social aspect becomes even more important when players have the ability to screw each other over in various ways... in environments like that, finding players you actually trust becomes that much more important, which again, plays to the genre's strengths.