Bringing back End Game Dungeons - A Concept

[Gaidax]

Because, believe it or not, the game is about character progression. People want character progression when they play. Ultimately, it all comes down to a effort-and-reward system, which is why currently people don't do dungeons -- or even raiding for that fact -- when the garrison can provide all the rewards they want for little effort.

Having character progression in patch 6.2 by doing 6.0 content is bad design. Sorry, but it does not make any sense that Mythic (or any) Raider in BFC has to step back and be forced to do 6.0 shit to progress his character.

[Guyviroth]

True, but at least it gives a logical progression curve - you get better by doing more challenging stuff...

In OPs model you progress beyond what raids give by doing most trivial, braindead content. Issue?

It's no different than what was done in Wrath, Cata and MoP. And I don't remember raiders bitching that they had to do heroics to help better their gear, either. I certainly didn't.

- - - Updated - - -

So OP, after the different feedback: getting a feel how the hotseat of a game designer / dev remotely feels?

I quite like it actually. And I'm not even on a payroll.

[lukyl]

If you want dungeons to be relevant for long periods of time like raids are, then they should be released like a tier system of easy-hard. There would be "entry level" dungeons that award xilvl gear as you clear through them, then as you gear through these you will be better geared to face the medium difficulty dungeons, and eventually gear enough through them to face the hard dungeons.

As to avoid a gated feel, all options are readily available from the beginning of hitting level cap, but the skill cap to instantly defeat the dungeons classified as the "harder" ones, would be mythic level high in non medium dungeon gear etc.

the hardest dungeons would award SLIGHTLY lower ilvl EPICS (a big thing that has been removed that made dungeon'eers feel involved in progression) then heroic raids, but be comparable with such gear as to feel like the gear is relevant to a raider later through a patch, aswell as epic and powerful to a dungeon only player.

The perspective of difficulty for the easy dungeons would be MoP style, to the hardest being ~pre-nerf cata heroics possibly slightly harder. Keeping in mind this is the difficulty even when in raiding gear / hard dungeon gear.

The main issue is that this would mean ALOT of dungeons would have to be in play, 15+ to keep it fresh when grinding for gear at various levels of progression.

[Guyviroth]

Having character progression in patch 6.2 by doing 6.0 content is bad design. Sorry, but it does not make any sense that Mythic (or any) Raider in BFC has to step back and be forced to do 6.0 shit to progress his character.

Again, sorry if you feel forced to do it.

[Aori]

True, but at least it gives a logical progression curve - you get better by doing more challenging stuff...

In OPs model you progress beyond what raids give by doing most trivial, braindead content. Issue?

That wasn't how I understood his model.

Anyways, small group content shouldn't be on the same level as raid content in terms of reward, unless the difficulty matches. However it never will because it is much easier to get 5 non derps as opposed to 20+.

I do believe small group content should at the least reward around 10% at most 15-20% of the current tier. I think there needs to be difficulty scaling with dungeons to increase rewards.

[Aori]

Yet I am running them daily on the odd character that I have at 100. And the queue times aren't even terrible. Which kinda made your argument in the OP null and void of "nobody runs heroics"

It kinda is the problem with these "concepts". You claim a certain thing is true about all realms in all countries and then take your own idea and defend it to death. And everyone arguing with you does the same. There is zero exchange of ideas, looking at what the other guys says and evaluation it, maybe adjusting your ideas.

Actually the fact your queue times are low is a good indicator that people really aren't running heroics. The tank shortage hasn't changed, you're just not competing with as many dps for spots.

[Guyviroth]

Yet I am running them daily on the odd character that I have at 100. And the queue times aren't even terrible. Which kinda made your argument in the OP null and void of "nobody runs heroics"

It kinda is the problem with these "concepts". You claim a certain thing is true about all realms in all countries and then take your own idea and defend it to death. And everyone arguing with you does the same. There is zero exchange of ideas, looking at what the other guys says and evaluation it, maybe adjusting your ideas.

I don't think I said "No one runs heroics". If I did, then that's my fault. What I'm getting it is that there's barely any incentive to run them at end game other than "cuz I got bored".

And I have passed out more ideas, such as;

• Make the heroics harder so they feel more fun to do (even though this has been an issue for Blizz since Cataclysm).
• Have other ways to obtain item upgrade tokens besides heroic dungeons, such as through raiding as random boss loot that have a good chance of dropping.

I can only pitch so much without a discussion that doesn't involve "YOU'RE FORCING ME TO DO THIS!"

[buck008]

I actually prefer the late BC/Wrath model with badges. I know Cata had them too, but they were largely worthless by that point. That would at least give dungeons a role again.

[Tart]

Sounds like you were just stuck with shitty progression, I was able to Frost/Valor cap through Raids alone in Wotlk. Heroics were only if I cbf raiding for the week.

I would enjoy multiple progression paths, but feel Top End raiding should still be the supremo gearing method.

With Mythic dungeons inc though I might enjoy that.

Agree 100% that there should be different routes to gear. On my monk I cleared both lfr's yesterday with only one drop boosting me up to a 641 Item level. With that low il I can't get in a raid being a healer or a raiding guild. Now thanks to raiding being the only route to get gear, I'm now playing an alt until next Wednesday.

If there were other options for upgrades (I already have crafted) I would have a lot more longetivity in the game and my char.