Help with Hellfire Citadel trinkets for Disc

[Deleted]

Spirit is my major concern as well, and that's to be figured out in progress.

[Yunzi]

I highly doubt that. Do you have any prove of that? Because when looking at my own logs, that is not true at all. But I also amost never run with 2 holy pals. I do not know to what godlike accuracy you are able to play, but my Penance channel+travel time also often heal right after a melee swing hits the tank. I personally am not able to keep tracks of boss swings as a healer. But if you start channeling Penance right after the tank got a hit, at a normal swingtimer of 1.5 seconds, the last penance pulse should as well be effective healing.

We should examine this more closely, unless it's already been done and someone can point us to this discussion to save us the work of going through it.

Let's take an ideal situation for the case of allowing penance to go past the GCD. The penance is being cast defensively, is on a key raid member (probably a tank), that raid member has a weakened soul debuff (so the otherwise generally more effective action of interrupting the penance with a PWS can't happen), we determine that the tank is in too much danger and needs extra healing in one second versus receiving a Clarity of Will over a second later, or we've mistakenly not selected Clarity of Will in a fight where tanks are in peril, Pain Suppression is not a better option, and Flash Heal for more healing a slight bit later than the 3rd penance tick would otherwise hit isn't a better option for either time or mana reasons. So in certain very rare situations such as this it's a good idea to let the penance continue past the GCD. The other benefit of letting it do so is that there's no additional mana cost of casting whatever spell interrupts the penance (that cost is delayed an extra second or two).

But on issues of throughput it's situational at best to allow penance past the GCD, **EVEN WHEN THE HEALING IS ENTIRELY EFFECTIVE**. Taking my own character's unbuffed stats to use for reference and assuming no crits or multistrikes, a single pulse of penance takes 1 second and heals for 23K. PWS shields for 49K and hits immediately, triggering the bit over 1 second GCD. Clarity of Will shields for 70K and takes 2.32 seconds. Flash Heal takes 1.39 seconds and heals for 42.5K.

Penance is the worst throughput option possible besides casting Heal (42.5K, 2.32 seconds), which leaves it's value past the GCD tied to mana efficiency and very rare situations where that tick healing on a tank is so key that it must be allowed. For a well-geared Disc, such a focus on mana efficiency is very strange and by no means optimal.

This may change somewhat with the 2 piece and 4 piece bonuses on our Tier 18 set.

...

Over the course of writing this post I've discovered an error in my reasoning. After the 2nd tick of penance there's a period of time before the GCD is reached and the spell can be usefully interrupted. With the 2 piece T17 bonus, the 2nd tick of penance occurs at a bit under 1 second (1 second/Haste effect) while the GCD is reached at a bit under 1.5 seconds (1.5 seconds/Haste effect). The time saved then by interrupting penance after the 2nd tick is the time between the GCD and the 3rd penance tick, occurring at (2 seconds/Haste). For me (unbuffed/unproced) my 3rd penance tick is at 1.85 seconds and the GCD occurs at 1.39 seconds, so the time savings is merely 0.46 seconds to break penance at GCD instead of right after the 3rd tick. Instead of valuing the 3rd penance tick at 23K healing over 1 second, the throughput of letting the 3rd penance tick go off is actually 23K/0.46 seconds.

This large change in the throughput analysis leads me to agree that for the THIRD tick of penance (2pT17) it should generally be allowed to go through if no overhealing results, while the bad throughput of the 4th penance tick (23K/0.93 seconds) means penance should usually be broken immediately after the 3rd tick except for rare situations already noted.

[ceddya]

This large change in the throughput analysis leads me to agree that for the THIRD tick of penance (2pT17) it should generally be allowed to go through if no overhealing results, while the bad throughput of the 4th penance tick (23K/0.93 seconds) means penance should always be broken immediately after the 3rd tick except for rare situations already noted.

If HPS is your only concern, then you should cancel the 4th tick. If it isn't and if the 4th tick won't overheal, then it's actually more beneficial to let Penance channel to completion. This is really only applicable on a handful of fights like Gruul (if you run with the least amount of regen possible), Blast Furnace and Blackhand P2 (where you want to conserve as much mana for P3).

[Deleted]

Blackhand P2 (where you want to conserve as much mana for P3).

wouldn't actually call "there's nothing to do" conserving :P

[ceddya]

wouldn't actually call "there's nothing to do" conserving :P

CoW spam is pretty fun. :P

- - - Updated - - -

Looks like Demonic Phylactery will be BIS for everyone. Its mana reduction bonus has been doubled (556, 639, 736), so the Mythic version will be worth 1042 Spirit at 35 casts per minute.

[Franarok]

For Disc I like
Demonic Phylactery:
+284 Intellect
+284 Haste
Equip: Reduces the mana cost of your spells by 278.

True that we dont cast so many spells as other, but the haste could help hahaha. Also is a trinket with intellect and "spirit". Actually one of the biggest amout of "spirit" of the new raid. And his strong point is that grows at same time we get more haste.

Maybe would be more interesting when it gave 1000 of haste haha

Flickering Felspark:
+271 Haste
+271 Mastery
+271 Multistrike
+271 Spirit

Not the best spirit one, but that is "compensated" by the mastery, haste and multi even if not intellect. Think is the second one that more mastery give to us (the other had an intellect proc).
Also think that haste will be interesting on the new raid (not only because I usually use CoW as talent haha). With the new tier is very interesting try use the 3 tick of penance. And haste is cool for penance.
Also with the Demonic Phylactery we dont have the classic problem of "more haste, less mana".

[Myllior]

Looks like Demonic Phylactery will be BIS for everyone. Its mana reduction bonus has been doubled (556, 639, 736), so the Mythic version will be worth 1042 Spirit at 35 casts per minute.

Indeed. Also, the changes to Flickering Felspark (Multistrike changed to Intellect and all of the stat quantities increased by ~6.6%) seem to place it firmly in position as the choice of second trinket. (Excluding whatever people decide to do with the Archimonde trinket).

[ceddya]

Indeed. Also, the changes to Flickering Felspark (Multistrike changed to Intellect and all of the stat quantities increased by ~6.6%) seem to place it firmly in position as the choice of second trinket. (Excluding whatever people decide to do with the Archimonde trinket).

Damn, the Flickering Felspark is looking real good now. Come on coins/caches!

[Deleted]

For Disc I like
Demonic Phylactery:
+284 Intellect
+284 Haste
Equip: Reduces the mana cost of your spells by 278.

True that we dont cast so many spells as other, but the haste could help hahaha.

Disc has the highest APM (actions per minute), and with the recent buff it'll give an average of 1090 spirit on mythic.

[Deleted]

Disc has the highest APM (actions per minute), and with the recent buff it'll give an average of 1090 spirit on mythic.

Even more than druids and holy? Can anyone provide an (empiric) summary of average actions per minute for all healing classes?

[ceddya]

Even more than druids and holy? Can anyone provide an (empiric) summary of average actions per minute for all healing classes?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Xuo/edit#gid=0

[PosPosPos]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Xuo/edit#gid=0

Strange that Holy Priests are lower on MCPM than Disc even though Holy(mindbender users mainly) has lesser free spells and long casts in their rotation than Disc.

[Overdispersion]

Strange that Holy Priests are lower on MCPM than Disc even though Holy(mindbender users mainly) has lesser free spells and long casts in their rotation than Disc.

Disc priests should have lower gcd from BT though.

[PosPosPos]

Disc priests should have lower gcd from BT though.

I don't think BT makes the difference when Disc has a totally free cast every 10 seconds though, it has to be something else I am missing.

I wonder if the spreadsheet makes the distinction between having SoL?Solace slotted or not.

[Overdispersion]

I don't think BT makes the difference when Disc has a totally free cast every 10 seconds though, it has to be something else I am missing.

Spreadsheet uses MB for disc perhaps? Should be a lot of SoL procs for holy aswell. Should've been separated by talents tbh.

[PosPosPos]

Spreadsheet uses MB for disc perhaps? Should be a lot of SoL procs for holy aswell. Should've been separated by talents tbh.

Yeah. There are even some Holy users still stuck on Solace, so it probably needs some fine-tuning from talent-to-talent.

[Deleted]

Here is how the sheet works.
10/10 mythic was done from 3 different players of "X" class, the numbers are then gathered from logs, and the total average is used in the math to calculate the spirit gain from the trinket.

Mythic gives a mana reduction of 736 per cast. The APM is multiplied with the mana reduction and devided by 12 (to find "mana per 5, aka MP5). He then devides it again with 2.06 which is the spirit > mp5 factor. or in this case mp5 > spirit factor.

I am not sure, but I don't think this was done without the free casts of either solace of mindbender.

[PosPosPos]

Here is how the sheet works.
10/10 mythic was done from 3 different players of "X" class, the numbers are then gathered from logs, and the total average is used in the math to calculate the spirit gain from the trinket.

Mythic gives a mana reduction of 736 per cast. The APM is multiplied with the mana reduction and devided by 12 (to find "mana per 5, aka MP5). He then devides it again with 2.06 which is the spirit > mp5 factor. or in this case mp5 > spirit factor.

I am not sure, but I don't think this was done without the free casts of either solace of mindbender.

Just feels like the samples with Mindbender got mixed in with the samples using Solace, and/or heavily skewed to one talent for each priest spec, since I do not really believe that a Solace disc should ever have a higher MCPM than a Mindbender holy.