Here is a thought: Are introductory raid bosses actually needed anymore?

[Deleted]

I would like to have an introductionboss that actually requires something of the healers instead of just being tank and spank :-)

[Tharkkun]

Yea, let's go back to "here's Razorgore as number one, Vael as number two - then a stack of loot piñatas up until Casino-Chromaggus"...
Having the first boss or two of any giving difficulty being 'easier' gives people an incentive to attempt said difficulty and progress further into it.
Having a raid-killer difficulty as one of the first bosses in a linear setup will strangle more than it'll help.

Currently having ImpN being harder than 2-3 bosses in Heroic i have no problem with.

The 3rd boss was a bitch too. The pull and positioning was the hardest part. Four, Five and Six were gear checks. Onyxia cloaks and/or FR gear or the encounter's couldn't be completed.

I think most bosses scale in difficulty like Blizzard designs. Players adapt to different mechanics differently so for some raid groups the heroic bump is easier than others.

[Teebu]

I feel introductory bosses are fine, if it's the first raid of the expansion. Simple mechanics, and lenient enrage timer. Any first boss in mid/end of expansion raids should still have one of the other, but not both. You don't need Paragons as the first boss, but you also don't want Patchwerk every raid.

[Wengel]

The 3rd boss was a bitch too. The pull and positioning was the hardest part. Four, Five and Six were gear checks. Onyxia cloaks and/or FR gear or the encounter's couldn't be completed.

I think most bosses scale in difficulty like Blizzard designs. Players adapt to different mechanics differently so for some raid groups the heroic bump is easier than others.

3rd wasn't a bitch - it's was the suppression rooms of trash before him that was the only real annoyance. More about having to clear 40 minutes of trash for each attempt on the boss... that sucked royally.
The 3 dragons afterwards only required the cloaks on the tanks, it was only Neffy that required the cloak on everyone (or to hide in the caves where the trash for p1 spawned).
Wasn't the breath from those dragons actually marked as Shadow damage and not fire? been quite some time so could be mistaken there.

The difficulty scale is for sure per design and personally think it's a good thing. Far better than what it was in the long-gone past.

[bicycle]

The easier bosses serve to give slower guilds something they can farm to boost their item level as they take a week or two per boss. It effectively nerfs later bosses for the guilds that don't clear it in a week, so that they have a better chance at progression.

[Deleted]

[unpopularopinion]

LFR - AFK/Tourist mode
Normal - Slightly less tourist mode, still utterly faceroll even with low gear, when you know what you're doing
Heroic - Casual/not strict schedule abiding players
Early Mythic - Casual/but wanting to get decent progress
End Mythic - Depending on what world rank, this extends from the "elite" to "thinks they're hardcore but actually aren't"

[Wries]

Yup. Remove them. Don't change them into something else, though. Simply remove them and have raids to be smaller. Focus less on raids overall and make sure there is some more diversity to end-game than just raid on your main and then raid the same raid but with different numbers on your alt.

[Caliph]

I think i agree with teh OP. each increase in difficult/mode should be consistent. normal bosses should not be harder than heroic and heroic shouldn't be harder than mythic. I thought flex/normal would serve as a training ground for new raiders etc., but I believe it's failed. You have people forming raids with ilvl requiements higher than the gear drops!

The community simply is full of entitled brats. I don't raid past heroic personnally but man it seems people just can't get heroic down without being carried or going crazy over wipes and stuff. Wiping was just part of raiding in the past. Now it's a nerd rage waiting to happen and normal mode hasn't taught people anything.

Maybe if they improve and expand on mythic dungeons the game will improve. this raiding end game has become a headache.

[Kuruption]

I honestly wish they did remove LFR for you fuckwads to see just how wrong you are about that. People don't move up because up is where all the toxicity exists.

Let me guess, you had one or two occassions where you were in a toxic situation, so now, if you join any decent raiding guild, it's toxic?

That's like me saying "oh man, if you haven't killed a mythic boss, you're a terrible player".

I mean come on. Some guilds can be toxic, but a lot of them aren't. Generalizing them all into one category is just beyond stupid.

[MrExcelion]

HFC is definitely getting introductory bosses. I think it's alright in a 13 boss instance. There's room.

[TheLimonTree]

Noone of them have a single mythic kill and all their pre-WoD heroic kills are with gear from next tier. You guessed wrong, congratulations! But you apparently like to be wrong.

- - - Updated - - -


They simply are not stupid. Heroic obviously is aimed for alts/friends/family.

Removing LFR would help people move up, to the tourist mode normal and higher.

- - - Updated - - -



I got quite far with such attitude - because I work with smart people, not simpletons.

You remind me a lot of Seto Kaiba in the abridged Yugioh series. Feel free to look it up if you have trouble with what I'm implying.

[Kickbuttmario]

Removing LFR would mean raids don't get made. At all.

Ughh! I hate you jerks so much. I wish they removed LFR, just so that they can prove how wrong you truly are. Raiding was doing just fine before LFR was introduced, and subs have been dropping big time since it was introduced. So believe whatever you want to. History tells us differently. >_<

As for the main topic, yes I agree. Tons also agree. I believe they should make Normal mode, easy mode, Heroic mode, Normal mode, and Mythic mode, Heroic mode. For convenience's sake. Normal mode, as of now, is nowhere near the difficulty of Karazhan 10 man (patch 2.4) and Naxxramas 10 man, which were excellent 10 mans that got tons of casuals and/or bads involved in raiding. HM and BRF weren't so much since a lot of bosses were actually decently difficult. Particularly, Imperator and Blackhand.

[Kaneiac]

[unpopularopinion]

LFR - AFK/Tourist mode
Normal - Slightly less tourist mode, still utterly faceroll even with low gear, when you know what you're doing
Heroic - Casual/not strict schedule abiding players
Early Mythic - Casual/but wanting to get decent progress
End Mythic - Depending on what world rank, this extends from the "elite" to "thinks they're hardcore but actually aren't"

This is delicate, though. I actually enjoy normal being "kinda" hard, at least the last few bosses. Heroic felt just right in BRF if you ask me.

We're a guild that can't field the roster for a mythic group (dead server, one mega-guild just eating every good recruit up) and don't really have the desire. If Heroic was easier than it is now, we'd be out of things to do very quickly.

[Jujudrood]

The thing with the raid design is that it needs to get progressively harder as you go on.
If you think about Kargath, for example, it's assumed that you have 630 blue Heroic dungeon gear.
Move onto Twins (next required boss), and it's assumed you have a handful or so of 655s from the previous bosses.
It's progression throughout the raid itself, gaining gear, which in turn is character power, as you move through it.
If they made all the bosses the same difficulty, it would have to be tuned to 630 gear only, and each mechanic would need to be somewhat forgiving with the assumed gear levels in mind.
This would have two outcomes:
1) The raids would be stupid easy because everything is tuned for a static gear level you surpass as you make your way through.
2) The raids would be stupid hard because the first boss would be a roadblock that prevents a lot of people from getting by.

Neither outcome is desirable to me, where the zone becomes all loot pinatas, or the first boss ruins your life if you slip up slightly just once.
The way they make them now is perfect, disregarding the different difficulties, which are actually the problem.

They need to merge Normal/Heroic into a single ilvl of gear, then tune Mythic appropriately.
For example, LFR HM gives 640, Normal/Heroic should give 655, Mythic should give 670.
Now, you might say "this sounds like Wrath model pre-LFR" and you would be right except for Mythic is a fixed size while the LFR and Normal/Heroic utilize flex tech being the main differences.

The idea of Heroic Kargath being easier than Normal Imperator is a problem, but only because higher gear is readily accessible by the simplest of means.
Scale back the number of difficulties offered, tuning them tighter because there is a reduction in gear bloat, and everything would be better.
But, this would also make some people sad because they can't get their bloated gear to make up for their lack of skill or their lack of caring enough to become more skilled (or whatever else the case may be).

TL;DR: Raiding is definitely taking a hit in terms of design and such, though it isn't due to easy entry level bosses, but rather the fact that there's 4 damn versions of them for no real reason.