Leftists that oppose the death penalty but love leftists who murder people?

[Wildtree]

If the left is bad because of Castro, does that mean the right is bad because of Hitler?

sort of, kind of

[Soulwind]

The problem with executing your enemies is that you hate when your enemies execute your people. Because your enemies are people. And your people have enemies.

When dehumanizing criminals to justify murdering them is easy for a society, murder itself doesn't sound like that huge of a crime. Suddenly, everyone in that society is an accomplice of the government.

Justice isn't about revenge or 'eyes for eyes', it's about what's best for everyone involved. Death penalty doesn't benefit anyone, and it's only supported by hate.

[Deleted]

Doesn't matter in my book, I know the brain and heart develop in just a few days. With that said when 2 adults lay down with one another they know the inherit risk of it, just think, if abortion was legal you may have never been born...at what point were you a child?

Abortion was illegal in my country back in the Communist era. We had women trying to abort using home made ways and gravely injured themselves and some even died, we had foster homes spilling over with abandoned children, and these foster homes were hell on Earth back then.

[Deleted]

There's a certain consistency if you recognise that some leftists are relativists - they don't want to judge others. Don't judge the murderer, so don't kill him. Don't judge the revolutionary, so don't condemn his violence.

However, as a leftist myself, but one wedded to constitutional means, I recognise the danger of revolutionary violence. Ironically, revolutionaries are usually very judgemental - condemning as heretics all those but the most ideologically pure (which typically degenerates into all those who do not obey the leader).

[Vago]

You are comparing apples with oranges. Abortion isnt killing a innocent child. Its throwing a worthless peace of meat away, who neither does live nor has a soul. Its just pure dead meat. Afaik it doesnt even breath or anything. Thats like saying raping a plasticdoll is as bad as raping a real women. Also: Abortion is a human right. Youre pretty much against human rights / UN Charta at this point, i hope you know this because no sane human would be against human rights.

So what you are saying is that, until it enters the world it has no soul? Just pure meat? So that is why they kick, suck their thumb, etc all while in the womb, they are just a slab of meat until they are release into the world

[Stormdash]

Cheeseburger, "as far as I know" is only helpful if you aren't saying things that are completely inane. There is no scientific debate that the human organism is "alive" biologically from it's earliest stages of development. The cells are alive and reproducing, the organs function as they grow and begin their normal operation, the human fetus is Homo sapiens, not "meat" and certainly not dead meat. All that's left to quibble about is whether or not the rights attendant to the human condition, metaphysically speaking, have attached to that human organism.

I'm gonna put you down as a "no" vote, obviously, but spouting ignorance about what "alive" means doesn't strengthen your argument.

And here I thought this thread was about monsters like Che.

[Cheerbleeder]

I love when people blame capitalism. If you live in America, you have never had capitalism and neither has your parents!

[Wildtree]

There's a certain consistency if you recognise that some leftists are relativists - they don't want to judge others. Don't judge the murderer, so don't kill him. Don't judge the revolutionary, so don't condemn his violence.

However, as a leftist myself, but one wedded to constitutional means, I recognise the danger of revolutionary violence. Ironically, revolutionaries are usually very judgemental - condemning as heretics all those but the most ideologically pure (which typically degenerates into all those who do not obey the leader).

You need to look at the entire picture though.
Revolutionaries like Castro and Che.. They rose up because of the slaughter and atrocities committed against the common people by dictators...
As for example Cuba.. People pointing fingers at Castro and Che, yet no one mentions Batista anymore....
The very dictator that spawned the Castro and Che coalition.. How come? Because Batista was backed by the US-Government?
Che moved on to fight other dictators and oppressors. Someone had to do it.. else more and more people would have died.
I find it sort of comical when people defend the means of war like airstrikes, drone strikes and even the nukes on Japan with
"yeah well that is the lesser evil, otherwise hundreds of thousands of more would die or had died", and then condemn the likes of Che?
Quite an irony..

[Stormdash]

sort of, kind of

Or would, if Hitler had been at all right wing. That would be hard to reconcile with his continuous citation of American progressives/socialists for philosophical support for his policies, up to and including the final solution.

[Wildtree]

Or would, if Hitler had been at all right wing. That would be hard to reconcile with his continuous citation of American progressives/socialists for philosophical support for his policies, up to and including the final solution.

Hitler, the Nazis are the epitome of Right wing.... it can't be further right than that anymore...
That's a well established scale, predating the internet... lol

[Stormdash]

Hitler, the Nazis are the epitome of Right wing.... it can't be further right than that anymore...
That's a well established scale, predating the internet... lol

It's well-established, I'll grant it that. Wouldn't be the first bollocks that was.

[JohnBrown1917]

Doesn't matter in my book, I know the brain and heart develop in just a few days. With that said when 2 adults lay down with one another they know the inherit risk of it, just think, if abortion was legal you may have never been born...at what point were you a child?

Good thing my birth was planned then.
Although not being born does sound appealing, a lot less suffering.

[Wildtree]

It's well-established, I'll grant it that. Wouldn't be the first bollocks that was.

Let's start with another well established fact..... The World doesn't spin around the small percentage (4.4%) of Americans.
Definitions aren't an American convenience thing.. They are valid from NYC to Siberia. Doesn't matter.
Hitler's social programs have not much to do with socialism as such.
if anything, it shows that even the most radical right wing dictators appease to the common plebs with social benefits. Because that's what the society wants.
And that is nothing Americans dreamed up... That's well established in ancient history.
If you wanna analyze Hitler, you will quickly discard your American socialists and philosophers, instead you end up with the Roman principles, at their most simple core of
Bread and Games. And depending on the reigning Cesar.. them Romans were too pretty right wing...

[Rukh]

Do we acknowledge that people can be against the death penalty because they feel that it is not an effective solution and not because they feel that killing is never right or does that contradict the giant strawman you have set up?

[Deleted]

I oppose the death penalty because :

Not irreversible and mistakes happen - people have been exonerated after they have been on death row. Aka innocent people get killed and if even 1 innocent person gets killed by the state thats 1 too many.

Denial of human rights - the right to life.

Does not deter crime - People that say it does have been repeatedly discredited.

Discriminatory - if you are poor you are less likely to have good laywers and there is discrimination in the justice system against racial, ethnic and religious minorities.

Its used politically - See China, Iran etc.

Its used in skewed Justice systems - countries like SA, Iran, China all get 'confessions' through torture.

I don't how Che and Fidel are linked to this in anyway.

[Wildtree]

I don't how Che and Fidel are linked to this in anyway.

That's simple... I pointed it out already

The Cuban revolution.....
Castro allied with Che, to overthrow Batista, the reigning dictator who had the backing of the USA. That is a fact.
And how do you protect yourself against someone like the USA? By gaining the support of the natural "enemy" of the US.. Soviets and China (at that time).
With that backing, the US could not easily interfere in Cuba anymore without risking the next global war. And that's something that doesn't fly well with some of the political right in the US, since that tickles their nationalistic pride..

[Deleted]

That's simple... I pointed it out already

The Cuban revolution.....
Castro allied with Che, to overthrow Batista, the reigning dictator who had the backing of the USA. That is a fact.
And how do you protect yourself against someone like the USA? By gaining the support of the natural "enemy" of the US.. Soviets and China (at that time).
With that backing, the US could not easily interfere in Cuba anymore without risking the next global war. And that's something that doesn't fly well with some of the political right in the US, since that tickles their nationalistic pride..

But the death penalty and Che + fidel are completely different issues that can be talked about seperately. The premise of this thread is fucking retarded.

[Rukh]

You need to look at the entire picture though.
Revolutionaries like Castro and Che.. They rose up because of the slaughter and atrocities committed against the common people by dictators...
As for example Cuba.. People pointing fingers at Castro and Che, yet no one mentions Batista anymore....
The very dictator that spawned the Castro and Che coalition.. How come? Because Batista was backed by the US-Government?
Che moved on to fight other dictators and oppressors. Someone had to do it.. else more and more people would have died.
I find it sort of comical when people defend the means of war like airstrikes, drone strikes and even the nukes on Japan with
"yeah well that is the lesser evil, otherwise hundreds of thousands of more would die or had died", and then condemn the likes of Che?
Quite an irony..

They may have gained supporters by this anti-nationalism message, but they were horrible people who committed atrocities. They had many innocents murdered for daring to have a different opinion. They became the embodiment of the monsters they claimed to fight against.

[Wildtree]

But the death penalty and Che + fidel are completely different issues that can be talked about seperately. The premise of this thread is fucking retarded.

it is indeed, yes lol

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They may have gained supporters by this anti-nationalism message, but they were horrible people who committed atrocities. They had many innocents murdered for daring to have a different opinion. They became the embodiment of the monsters they claimed to fight against.

You can make a claim about Castro, I would agree.... But not Che.. Che died way too early to be possibly judged outside of revolutionary/war campaigns. There is no such condition for him applicable.

[Ravenblade]

Don't think you can mix leftwingers just as if its mashed potatoes. There were always leftwingers who made enemies on both sides. Willi Münzenberg, a communist from my capitol, was hunted by the Nazis and Stalin's agents and got his KPD membership suspended. Point being, it is perfectly fine to distance yourself from radicals while still opposing the same common enemy.