6.2 Holy Preliminary BiS

[Deleted]

So I made myself some stat weights, estimated set bonus values and plugged it into a spreadsheet.
The first thing that stood out to me was that the 4set is significantly weaker than the 2set. This led to an interesting revelation that I don't believe there's a significant advantage to taking the 4set bonus if optimal offpieces are available.

Talking full BiS here (including Archimonde);

Pious Cowl 725 (tier, haste+multistrike)
Locket of Unholy Reconstitution 730 (spirit+multistrike)
Pious Mantle 725 (haste+multistrike) Mantle of the Eredar Lord 735 (haste + multistrike)
Cloak of Hideous Unity 730 (haste+multistrike)*
Raiment of Divine Clarity 725 (crit+multistrike) ** Pious Raiment 725 (crit + haste)
Contemptuous Wristguards 730 (crit+mastery)***
Satin Gloves of Injustice 730 (crit+multistrike)
Demonbuckle Sash of Argus 735 (mastery+multistrike)
Leggings of the Iron Summoner 730 (crit+haste)
Bloody Dagger-Heeled Pumps 730 (crit+versatiliy)
Ring of Foul Temptation 725 multistrike+spirit)
Demonic Phylactery 725
Iron Reaver Piston 720 (int, crit, haste)****
Edict of Argus 735 (haste+mastery)*****



*No spirit here but it's also 5ilvls higher than the spirit cloaks, I think dropping some spirit will be quite fine especially with trinket options

**This stood out as odd to me since it's not an ilvl increase over tier, but the itemization seemed to make this a more valuable offpiece than upgrading the ilvl on shoulders.

*** worth noting this is VERY close in value to Powder-Singed Bracers. Likely to swap places depending on specific stat weights. The fact that Powder-Singed Bracers have favorable itemization and are available from the first boss in the instance might make these the better choice - especially if more kills give more chance at wf/socket etc.

**** DPS trinket so good luck getting it. Flickering felspark would be my 2nd pick. A few reasons behind these choices but probably deserves it's own post. In short; leech trinket doesn't stack from overhealing. throughput procs suck. these static trinkets seem overbudget (compare 690 piston to 691 quiescent runestone)


***** yeah, good luck with this one. Very close (and potentially better depending on specific stat weights) is Gavel of the Eredar + Gibbering Madness combo. I'll be aiming for the mace+OH due to less competition and only being minutely behind. 3rd best option is the Voidcore Greatstaff. Which should be your preference for Archimonde progress, it's not that far behind Edict of Argus either, if this came up with some extras I'd certainly take it and be happy.

This results in;
4954 int
2545 spell power
1772 spirit
1101 multistrike
2727 haste
585 mastery
1678 crit (:<)
148 versatility
average ilvl 728.44 (with 715 quest ring)


Lots of haste+multistrike items, not taking a spirit cloak really stands out as the obvious choice here since the other spirit slots are generally well itemized anyway with multistrike, as it stands the Demonic Phylactery is going to be pulling A LOT of weight in terms of mana, it's by far and away #1 on the priority list if you're going in with BrF mythic gear. The piston / felspark choice should be interesting, will need to see what mana is like during progress but it's a flexible spot and the numbers are putting them both quite equal, so if you had access to both then this would be my slot to change as needed.

yeah, no 4 piece. Since my maths is telling me they're 'close' I wanted to entertain the idea of not taking 4set. To further that, I believe in a realistic raiding environment, and looking at other class setbonuses, I'm FAR more likely to be able to pick up some offpieces with WF/Socket/Leech etc than I'll be able to get with tier. Obviously that's unfair to include in a BiS list since BiS is BEST in slot. Even so I think for planning purposes it's worth keeping in mind.

The list also only contains 2 items from Archimonde. One being a weapon which will be in high demand by all casters, the other being a belt. Again the belt is likely to be in high demand by all casters but we may be the luckiest since our '2nd best' option isn't that bad at all.


Kind of sad that there are some perfectly itemized drops that become irrelevant as you progress through the later bosses simply due to ilvl although on the bright side it does mean that the gap between being geared in the first tier of the instance and the end bosses will be much smaller for us than some other specs.


And just for reference, swapping out those higher ilvl pieces to better itemized 'worse' pieces, looks like;

Pious Cowl 725 (haste + multistrike)
Locket of Unholy Reconstitution 730 (spirit + multistrike)
Pious Mantle 725 (haste + multistrike) mantle of the Eredar Lord 735 (haste + multistrike)
Cloak of Hideous Unity 730 (haste + multistrike)
Raiment of Divine Clarity 725 (crit + multristrike) Pious Raiment 725 (crit + haste)
Powder-Singed Bracers 720 (haste + multistrike)
Satin Gloves of Injustice 730 (crit + multistrike)
Sludge-Soaked Waistband 720 (haste + multistrike)
Leggings of the Iron Summoner 730 (crit + haste)
Pedal-Pushing Sandals 720 (haste + multistrike)
Ring of Foul Temptation 725 (spirit + multistrike)
Legendary 715 (spirit + haste)
Demonic Phylactery 725
Iron Reaver Piston 720
Gavel of the Eredar 735 (haste + multistrike)
Gibbering Madness 725 (crit + multistrike)

4875 int
2544 spell power
1772 spirit
1819 multistrike
2952 haste
0 mastery
1310 crit
0 versatility
average ilvl 725.63 (with 715 quest ring)

Looking at those stats they look much friendlier for holy priests

That said the difference between the sets is only 28PP (half a gem) in favour of the higher ilvl with 25PP of that from the belt alone. Swapping out the weapon to voidcore with those lower ilvls items is still 'only' ~115PP behind full BiS. Considering the ilvl difference between the sets I'd say that's pretty good. Both in terms of flexibility and availability.
That 2.8ilvl increase will net you an impressive (/sarcasm) 0.24% increase in PP.

Generally happy holy priest with this itemization


Finally for the items I'll actually be aiming for for Archimonde progress, this list is a combination of the 'better itemization, lower ilvl' due to availability (hopefully) and dropping off earlier bosses hopefully resulting in more of it with bonus stats;

Countenance of the Revenant 730 (haste + multistrike)
Locket of Unholy Reconstitution 730 (spirit + multistrike)
Pious Mantle 725 (haste + multistrike)
Cloak of Hideous Unity 730 (haste + multistrike)
Pious Raiment 725 (crit + haste)
Powder-Singed Bracers 720 (haste + multistrike)
Satin Gloves of Injustice 730 (crit + multistrike)
Sludge-Soaked Waistband 720 (haste + multistrike)
Leggings of the Iron Summoner 730 (crit + haste)
Pedal-Pushing Sandals 720 (haste + multistrike)
Ring of Foul Temptation 725 (spirit + multistrike)
Legendary 715 (spirit + haste)
Demonic Phylactery 725
Iron Reaver Piston 720
Voidcore Greatstaff 730 (haste + multistrike)

4871 int
2428 spell power
1772 spirit
2155 multistrike
2704 haste
0 mastery
1217 crit
0 versatility
average ilvl 725.31 (with 715 quest ring)




EDIT; after a little further tinkering I'm not convinced it will be worth dropping 4set until mythic Archimonde loot becomes available, specifically to gain the shoulders as an offpiece. The gloves would be the go-to offpiece being worth almost double the upgrade of any other offpiece slot. This also largely depends on the increase offered by the 4set. My very basic testing and maths put the 4set at around 2% increase in healing, I'm very very open to more accurate numbers here though
PS;
fully expect set bonus changes and probably trinket changes before live. I'm just speculating a BiS list for funsies


EDIT; updated thanks to Mylliors catch of my typo

[Isheria]

Pretty sure alchemy trinket (Stone of the Elements) beats every other hfc citadel except phylactery thanks to 2k int proc which has roughly 30% uptime and the 3% healing boost just from the passive versatility on it unless ofc you hate throughput procs with a passion.
Bis head is also not tier but Countenance of the Revenant instead. If you're aiming for just 2p you want shoulders and pants as tier pieces go unless some magic happens and 4p gets uber buffed but i wouldn't count on it.

[PosPosPos]

Pretty sure alchemy trinket (Stone of the Elements) beats every other hfc citadel except phylactery thanks to 2k int proc which has roughly 30% uptime and the 3% healing boost just from the passive versatility on it unless ofc you hate throughput procs with a passion.
Bis head is also not tier but Countenance of the Revenant instead. If you're aiming for just 2p you want shoulders and pants as tier pieces go unless some magic happens and 4p gets uber buffed but i wouldn't count on it.

It's just 510 int and 351 vers(throw in ~82 spirit assuming a 10 minute encounter). Not saying it's not good as far as trinkets of the same ilvl goes, but any mythic trinket would be better than that.

The alchemy trinket is definitely a solid option for cutting edge progression though, since it's not like you have access to anything else other than being lucky on drop rates in split runs by the time mythic releases.

[Xelzia]

what trinket should i drop for the alchemy trinket ?
i have the darmac (WF) and the furnance trinket(685)

[Deleted]

Pretty sure alchemy trinket (Stone of the Elements) beats every other hfc citadel except phylactery thanks to 2k int proc which has roughly 30% uptime and the 3% healing boost just from the passive versatility on it unless ofc you hate throughput procs with a passion.
Bis head is also not tier but Countenance of the Revenant instead. If you're aiming for just 2p you want shoulders and pants as tier pieces go unless some magic happens and 4p gets uber buffed but i wouldn't count on it.

Interesting you should say that about the helm, it was my first thought too when just looking at the items stats and ilvls. Once I plugged in some stat weights though it's actually coming out as the smallest upgrade from tier, presumably because tier already has haste+multistrike.
Which stat weights are you using?

For reference I was using;
Int 1.00
Spellpower 0.91
Spirit 0.60
Multistrike 0.58
Haste 0.55
Mastery 0.35
Crit 0.48
Versatility 0.46

Which meant PPP for tier;

Helm 708.14
Shoulders 533.86
Chest 629.72
Gloves 466.42
Legs 668.86

and 'best' non tier offpieces

Helm Countenance of the Revenant 746.29
Shoulders Mantle of the Eredar Lord 581.30
Chest Raiment of Divine Clarity 689.72
Gloves Satin Gloves of Injustice 546.74
Legs Leggings of the Iron Summoner 717.82


I think that despite the ilvl, the stats just make a bigger difference, particularly since I devalue mastery and 'maybe' overvalue versatility due to my own reasons. Despite that I couldn't make the helm the biggest increase with any combination of stat weights I tried so would be curious to know what you were using

[Thirteen]

For reference I was using;
Int 1.00
Spellpower 0.91
Spirit 0.60
Multistrike 0.58
Haste 0.55
Mastery 0.35
Crit 0.48
Versatility 0.46

I'd weigh vers more than crit, to be honest. So I'd say it's

Countenance of the Revenant (730 Haste/Multistrike)
Locket of Unholy Reconstitution (730 Spirit/Multistrike)
Cloak of Hideous Unity (730 Haste/Multistrike)
Mantle of the Eredar Lord (735 Haste/Multistrike)
Pious Raiment (725 Critical Strike/Haste)
Powder-Singed Bracers (720 Multistrike/Haste)
Satin Gloves of Injustice (730 Multistrike/Crit)
Sludge-Soaked Waistband (720 Haste/Multistrike)
Pious Leggings (725 Multistrike/Mastery)
Pedal-Pushing Sandals (720 Multistrike/Haste)
Etheralus, the Eternal Reward (Legendary Spirit/Haste)
Ring of Foul Temptation (725 Spirit/Multistrike)
Demonic Phylactery (725)
Repudiation of War (735) LOL NO THX BLIZZ
Unstable Felshadow Emulsion (730) or Stone of the Elements (715)
Voidcore Greatstaff (730 Multistrike/Haste)

[Deleted]

Weighing vers above crit still doesn't make countenance the best offpiece though. Which stat weights are you using?

edit; and the shoulders for that matter are the 2nd smallest upgrade from tier after the helm >.< although shoulders and legs are very close, could certainly see bis lists with either of these + helm, depending on stat weights


EDIT;

here's a spreadsheet with the item values of next tier, currently missing anything warforged. but just plug stat weights into the Item PPP tab and it'll update the item values

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1142157283

[Thirteen]

You may have a point, actually.

1.00 Int
0.91 SP
0.60 Spirit
0.58 Multistrike
0.55 Haste
0.50 Vers (somewhat arbitrarily chosen)
0.48 Crit
0.35 Mastery

[Deleted]

[I]http://i.imgur.com/RQbFqRw.png

You may have a point, actually.

1.00 Int
0.91 SP
0.60 Spirit
0.58 Multistrike
0.55 Haste
0.50 Vers (somewhat arbitrarily chosen)
0.48 Crit
0.35 Mastery

I maybe just spent longer than I should trying to click on that picture...

[Thirteen]

Question though: How'd you reach those stat weights? cause some stats scale better than others (most notably vers), so you might be using outdated ones. Granted they're not really set in stone for healers, but still.

[Deleted]

Question though: How'd you reach those stat weights? cause some stats scale better than others (most notably vers), so you might be using outdated ones. Granted they're not really set in stone for healers, but still.

Very good point,
I was using a combination of Mylliors spreadsheet and my own. For the most part they agreed on stat weights to any significant amount. The point that varied were haste and spirit, since I made mine specifically for trying to get an estimate from those 2 stats. It's essentially just a theoretical 'what's the max hps I can do in x sec?' which then alters a 'rotation' based on the stats, either set to max hps and it'll tell me how long I can sustain that throughput before oom, or set a time to last and it'll tell me the hps I can theoretically pull over that timeframe.
It's certainly not perfect (and I know specifically about some issues but simply don't have the time or know-how to fix) but I wanted to get a rough estimate (originally it was made for comparing spirit trinkets to int trinkets) but since it's based off stats I can just plug in multiple stat variants and then see their effect, resulting in stat weights.

Since I made those with my current gear (actually not quite, I made them about a month ago) I then bodged it a bit to push the stats around. Notably I gave haste a bit more value since I noticed there was more spirit available next tier but otherwise it stayed much the same.

I shall endeavour to make new stat weights but since it's extremely time consuming I want to wait until 6.2 is imminent to account for any future changes they might make.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=867500514

is the spreadsheet, although it's not super user friendly, especially since I know some parts aren't working properly :P

[Myllior]

I had a go using my own stat weights yesterday (spreadsheet) and I'm getting an almost identical setup (the difference is in the tier pieces). Even the PP values are quite close for most items; the only potential significant differences are for items with lots of Mastery, since I'm weighting Mastery at 0.40763.

If using the 4 piece, I'd go for the gloves as the off piece (same as you have Red). If using the 2 piece and you're pre-Mythic Archimonde, I'd go for the shoulder and chest as the tier pieces to take; post-Mythic Archimonde, I'd go for the helm and chest.

Chest 629.72

I just checked this slot in the spreadsheet you linked, and there's a typo; the item has 339 Critical Strike, but the spreadsheet's only giving it 239 Critical Strike at the moment. Once that's fixed up, I think you'll get the same tier setup as I'm getting.

[Deleted]

<3 Myllior.

I hummed and har'd about importing from the API but since the fiasco last tier where they buffed ilvl but didn't update the API immediately I chose to type it all by hand (not to mention my complete incompetence at actually importing from the API) D: Thanks for the catch


Regarding the mastery weight, this is one of the stats I bodged a bit based on 'feel'. I know that's completely unscientific and largely defeats the purpose of mathing stat weights but here my reasoning;

The way the stat weight was calculated using both your spreadsheet and my own was a mathematical calculation to increase healing done from a predetermined spell selection. That is, asking 'if I cast these spells, how will my healing done change as I change these stats?'.
The reason I lowered mastery is because whilst I value it as an hps stat I don't value it for 'saving lives', at least not in every scenario or as much as other stats. It's essentially equivalent to seeing a tank near death and casting renew on them instead of a flash heal, similar healing done but the flash heal has the higher life saving value (imo!)

[Thirteen]

Regarding the mastery weight, this is one of the stats I bodged a bit based on 'feel'. I know that's completely unscientific and largely defeats the purpose of mathing stat weights but here my reasoning;

Your PoM healing will also drop by anywhere between 30 and 50%, since we won't have our T17 2-piece, further devaluing mastery. On that note, would it be worth taking over some T18 off-pieces just for the extra PoM bounces?

[Myllior]

<3 Myllior.

I hummed and har'd about importing from the API but since the fiasco last tier where they buffed ilvl but didn't update the API immediately I chose to type it all by hand (not to mention my complete incompetence at actually importing from the API) D: Thanks for the catch

I helped! Haha. You're welcome; though, if you hadn't put up the individual PP numbers as well as your spreadsheet itself, I never would have spotted it. Your spreadsheets on this are far better than anything I could produce for BiS lists*, so thank you for sharing them!
*Until 5 minutes ago, I didn't even know what 'API' stands for

With Mastery, I understand (and agree with) your explanation that the delayed healing due to EoL can be undesirable, especially when it comes to triage decisions in a bursty damage environment. I guess this could be considered as the Holy Mastery's equivalent of the 'unreliability' that Critical Strike and Multistrike may experience in similar situations, due to their pure chance nature. Regardless, these are things that I don't know how to reasonably quantify, so I choose to neglect them, because I can.

Your PoM healing will also drop by anywhere between 30 and 50%, since we won't have our T17 2-piece, further devaluing mastery. On that note, would it be worth taking over some T18 off-pieces just for the extra PoM bounces?

I've been wondering about this; how many bounces is the 'average' PoM achieving? I'm tempted to just take the number of Hits in a log and divide by (Casts + Instances of the buff 'Mending'), which gives numbers like ~6.86 bounces, but then this ignores 'over-stacking' of PoM charges if they bounce to the same target too frequently, or that the average is just that. Maybe I'm just over-thinking this...

EDIT: Fixed links and bounce number in last paragraph.

[Deleted]

The spreadsheet was actually just made for mathing coin values. I noticed AMR has a similar service for subscribers recently. I've been making these spreadsheets since MoP coins came out and they're getting ever more complicated. I have found it helps me notice the unintuitive decisions though, sometimes it's better to coin for the 2nd best weapon if it's on a small loot table than BiS that's on a shared loot table with 5 pointless items. Depending on your guild loot system ofc, it's just a tool.
Also has the side effect of showing the boss values, when your raid leader asks what bosses you can sit for :P

and then, BiS lists! when comparing each item to an empty slot. Certainly wasn't designed around this though so there's a lot of manual work to be done when trying to put set bonuses together etc.

In any case, once the stats are released for warforged items it'll be available to any priests that want to use it for coins, even if it isn't super user friendly (if it could import your items from armory automatically that'd be cool, but I'm clueless)

[Thirteen]

I've been wondering about this; how many bounces is the 'average' PoM achieving? I'm tempted to just take the number of Hits in a log and divide by (Casts + Instances of the buff 'Mending'), which gives numbers like ~5.38 bounces or ~5.77 bounces, but then this ignores 'over-stacking' of PoM charges if they bounce to the same target too frequently, or that the average is just that. Maybe I'm just over-thinking this...

I really can't think of what you/we might be missing, since I've done some math on it and reached similar results. At the same time, you look at some logs from before BRF and you see even more PoM ticks than you do now, which makes very little sense.

[ceddya]

I really can't think of what you/we might be missing, since I've done some math on it and reached similar results. At the same time, you look at some logs from before BRF and you see even more PoM ticks than you do now, which makes very little sense.

The bounces per PoM cast for that log are at 3.72, which makes sense since the 2-piece bonus is an 80% increase in the number of PoM ticks and that it's harder to waste PoM stacks without the bonus. The one thing to note from the BH logs is that bounces/cast increases drastically in P3, which should be the case since people are taking constant damage.

Anyway, does anyone know how the new 4-piece bonus works? Does it duplicate the PoM heal only or generate a brand new 5 stack?

[Thirteen]

The bounces per PoM cast for that log are at 3.72, which makes sense since the 2-piece bonus is an 80% increase in the number of PoM ticks and that it's harder to waste PoM stacks without the bonus. The one thing to note from the BH logs is that bounces/cast increases drastically in P3, which should be the case since people are taking constant damage.

Anyway, does anyone know how the new 4-piece bonus works? Does it duplicate the PoM heal only or generate a brand new 5 stack?

I have no idea how but the first time I did it came up as 6.something. It still feels pretty weird. I imagined PoM would be proccing a lot more, especially with the 2piece. Anyway: Not from personal experience, but according to Bnet forum posts it just duplicates the heal, which is so underwhelming.

[Myllior]

I really can't think of what you/we might be missing, since I've done some math on it and reached similar results.

Wow my brain wasn't working too well yesterday. For whatever reason, I left out critical strikes when considering the total number of bounces, and I also made both links point to the same log...I'll fix it up.

Fixing the number of bounces puts the earlier ~5.77 up to ~6.86 which, when compared to the 3.72 from the Brackenspore log, would be a 45.76% decrease. Yes it's comparing different fights, but it does show that the 30-50% number you put up earlier seems to be the ballpark. If I take 45.76% uniformly off the PoM numbers in my Holy spreadsheet, it changes the Mastery weight from 0.40763 to 0.40002 (including overhealing) or from 0.43893 to 0.42595 (considering raw healing). (Here's hoping my brain's working properly today ).