Can anyone tell me the state of WW and BrM come 6.2?

[Manu9]

Hey guys, I've been out of the game since 6.1 hit, can anyone update me on the changes? regarding both specs. I remember both doing well, but not amazingly well, but not in a bad position either, what changed since for both specs?

[Babylonius]

I suggest you check out the patch notes and the more recent pages of both specs guides if you have not already. You're asking an exceptionally broad question of which the answer could change several times before the next patch.

[vulena]

Hey guys, I've been out of the game since 6.1 hit, can anyone update me on the changes? regarding both specs. I remember both doing well, but not amazingly well, but not in a bad position either, what changed since for both specs?

If you don't remember Brewmasters doing amazingly well, you don't remember brewmasters.

Also, there are massive threads dedicated to each spec at the top of the page. Read up.

[Manu9]

Thank you guys

[Bropollo]

If you don't remember Brewmasters doing amazingly well, you don't remember brewmasters.

Also, there are massive threads dedicated to each spec at the top of the page. Read up.

Weren't Brewmasters on the weaker side of tanking prior to 6.1?

[Evolved]

Weren't Brewmasters on the weaker side of tanking prior to 6.1?

No. Nothing has changed (tanking wise/tiger strikes) for Brewmasters since Highmaul (pre highmaul? The silly stagger buff).

[this is caranthir]

I'm coming back to the game after a few months and i wanted to reroll Enh.Shaman or Monk, i see that DPS wise they both suck.
Maybe I should stick with my paladin/warrior or try some healing for a change

[Babylonius]

I'm coming back to the game after a few months and i wanted to reroll Enh.Shaman or Monk, i see that DPS wise they both suck.
Maybe I should stick with my paladin/warrior or try some healing for a change

Thanks for your valuable addition to this thread. What evidence do you have that Monk's suck?

[Hinalover]

Thanks for your valuable addition to this thread. What evidence do you have that Monk's suck?

I think he is referring to the leaked SimC stack that is going around where WW monks single target is slightly below average, compared to Arcane mages and their OP 2-piece (which is currently hitting like a truck).

[Evolved]

Aren't mages always OP?

[The Madgod]

The answer is, at least for brewmasters: Not really OP maybe probably once 4-piece comes out. You should check the sticky for more though, that's not really a perfectly good way to explain it.

Aren't mages always OP?

Rule number 1 about fantasy games: If it isn't The Elder Scrolls, mages are OP.

[this is caranthir]

Thanks for your valuable addition to this thread. What evidence do you have that Monk's suck?

Mostly people comments on WW monk, as I said, I took a few months break from the game.

[Babylonius]

Mostly people comments on WW monk, as I said, I took a few months break from the game.

Stop listening to those people unless you can see the numbers behind their statements. Any time a nerf shows up on the patch notes, the sky is falling. As many of the Monk community aren't really involved in looking at numbers, are misinformed by one another, or just make stuff up.

Hell, I had two seperate people tell me that the 5% nerfs to 6 WW abilities meant that WW lost 30% damage. With their line of thinking, the sky had fallen, abandon ship. They were right that a 30% nerf would be just about game breaking for WW, but thankfully thats not how math works.

[ElDoorO]

Stop listening to those people unless you can see the numbers behind their statements. Any time a nerf shows up on the patch notes, the sky is falling. As many of the Monk community aren't really involved in looking at numbers, are misinformed by one another, or just make stuff up.

Hell, I had two seperate people tell me that the 5% nerfs to 6 WW abilities meant that WW lost 30% damage. With their line of thinking, the sky had fallen, abandon ship. They were right that a 30% nerf would be just about game breaking for WW, but thankfully thats not how math works.

What I would suggest you consider is the *aspect* of the game we're talking about.
For PvP, for instance, we have very little survivability outside of ToK. Which means we have to kite kite kite BURST kite kite kite BURST.
I would be very interested in you showing me WW representation in PvP other than MW. 2's? 3's? RBG's?
I'd be very curious if even in full conq gear you'd be taken into an RBG as a WW monk in 6.2.

Looking at the patch notes it seems we're going to be even *less* represented. The only monks you'll see are MW. So, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you don't like MW -- re-roll to another class if you want to PvP.

At the moment there are 2400+ WW monks but if you look at the overall picture -- they are both underrepresented and very far down the ladder.

Are you prepared to argue these nerfs will *help* WW monks somehow? Or that somehow every statistic site is wrong in their scraping?

http://fotm.info

http://www.wowfotm.com/

There's PLENTY of other sites that agree with me on this.

That being said, do you have anything to site that disagree's that the "end of the world" isn't coming? At all? I'm not sure if you know -- but hotfixes that matter are pretty rare so once a patch is out -- you're screwed that patch and you are just sat with maybe regulated to normals or something. You won't be part of progression.

BrM's that really screwed up. They simply needed to adjust Guard scaling so it wasn't so insane but also didn't screw over fresh 100's (have we already forgotten 6.0 and how brutal it was for Brm? -- yes, I can say this because I DO have every tank at 100 and I DID go through it, so YES -- I DO know and am not just speculating).

[hatduck]

BrM's that really screwed up. They simply needed to adjust Guard scaling so it wasn't so insane but also didn't screw over fresh 100's (have we already forgotten 6.0 and how brutal it was for Brm? -- yes, I can say this because I DO have every tank at 100 and I DID go through it, so YES -- I DO know and am not just speculating).

It doesn't seem to me that you know what you're talking about. Brewmasters right now are in a good place. A different, good place. Unless there's some crazy nerf incoming that we haven't seen yet, we're looking really strong.

[ElDoorO]

It doesn't seem to me that you know what you're talking about. Brewmasters right now are in a good place. A different, good place. Unless there's some crazy nerf incoming that we haven't seen yet, we're looking really strong.

In PvE we're TOO good -- we *needed* a nerf. Go look at the comps that downed Mythic Blackhand.

[Babylonius]

That being said, do you have anything to site that disagree's that the "end of the world" isn't coming? At all? I'm not sure if you know -- but hotfixes that matter are pretty rare so once a patch is out -- you're screwed that patch and you are just sat with maybe regulated to normals or something. You won't be part of progression.

WW is underrepresented in both PvE and PvP. Its the least played spec of the least played class. One patch isn't going to change that. Obviously less damage isn't going to help, but a 4-5% nerf isn't game breaking. For PvE, with the designs of the Hellfire Citadel fights, WW can be very strong due to SEF, hence why a small nerf was warranted so that its not absolutely ridiculous.

If WW is already less than 1% of PvP, then a small nerf isn't going to change that. The sky clearly already fell on WW PvP long ago, not in 6.2. I don't PvP so I can't, and never have spoken about that.

Those who have earned their spots in progression shouldn't lose it because of the 5% changes made; except in the scenario of a delusional raid leader or guild master, which can certainly happen.

[ElDoorO]

WW is underrepresented in both PvE and PvP. Its the least played spec of the least played class. One patch isn't going to change that. Obviously less damage isn't going to help, but a 4-5% nerf isn't game breaking. For PvE, with the designs of the Hellfire Citadel fights, WW can be very strong due to SEF, hence why a small nerf was warranted so that its not absolutely ridiculous.

If WW is already less than 1% of PvP, then a small nerf isn't going to change that. The sky clearly already fell on WW PvP long ago, not in 6.2. I don't PvP so I can't, and never have spoken about that.

Those who have earned their spots in progression shouldn't lose it because of the 5% changes made; except in the scenario of a delusional raid leader or guild master, which can certainly happen.

So just to be clear we went from: The sky isn't falling to it's fallen long ago (pvp) and is just fine (pve) and then to "I don't pvp, so I can't speak on that" kind of response. Can we clarify where you are on this? I think you're trying to say "We're screwed in PvP and that's just been that way for some quantity of time I'm unsure of" -- if so, then why didn't you mention that in your first comment? Don't you think that might have been a little helpful to the answer?

I'm curious -- where do you think it'd make a difference? 10% nerf? 50%? 75%? What's your magic number where you, personally, would say it'd make a difference to WW PvP'ers before they out-right can't play? Would you then still argue it's because it's just an unrepresented class? I'm curious where *you* personally would draw the line so I can hold you to that in the future -- getting people to commit to something real seems impossible now-a-days since they mysteriously change their tunes later and it's nice to refer back and go "but you said...". I merely want to hold you to your word, that is all.

But let's back up because I'm about to call bullshit on your "underrepresented" -- we're represented reasonably well in 5's and RBG's *AS MISTWEAVER*. In fact, as I write this: http://fotm.info/us/5v5/now -- notice it's a monk comp. Rating? 2k+. 1850+ in 2's and 3's. Look at the comp. BM Hunter, Combat rogue, Frost DK, Holy Pally, and MW monk. My point is MW is *fine* and in a reasonable position. WW is broken horribly -- you could have easily had mentioned this in your first comment, which you failed to do so. You provided very little help at all to the actual question. I'm disappointed in those kinds of responses. It makes me sad.

Back to the original that you attempted to argue: Reading patch notes *doesn't* give you a full on feel of how things will be. AT ALL. Say it until you're blue in the face all you want and you'll end up disappointed or happy. Neither PvE nor PvP due to set bonuses and stats -- those make the world of difference. TotalTemic knows his shit in PvE. I'm unsure about their PvP (edit: changed to pvp) stance but they know BrM like the back of their hand. Historically we *know* people will swap when something as little as 5% change matters when it comes to specs. If we have a player who can more easily do 5% more damage *and* provide more utility, why not take them instead?

People come here because they hope to ask someone who *has* done their research *and* has played on the PTR *and* has a well thought out opinion. The canned responses of "read patch notes" or "play whatever is fun" or whatever is downright silly at best and disrespectful and disingenuous at worst. *THIS* is why we get chicken littles. Because of *you*. Personally, and this is merely my own opinion, when the first PTR is up we need a stickied thread with someone skilled in that class and their opinions on the changes based on gear, stats, etc to help calm down the chicken littles. By simply looking at the changes, do you not see how you create chicken littles? They lack context to those changes. I implore you to change your attitude and responses to be more helpful.

All I know about WW is they aren't viable in PvP now and they won't be in 6.2 and will get worse.. I can not speak for PvE but I suspect we'll see some benched in Mythic but normal and heroic won't *really* matter -- it's unlikely your loss will be the make/break for downing a boss. It might, however, lead you to be insecure in your playing ability -- which is never healthy for a game. You seem to have forgotten Cataclysm and The Benching of those lesser specs. WW offers little in raid utility relative to other classes (such as, say, a ret pally). I can *easily* see a WW benched for Mythic raiders who are progression. I saw it in Cata when people clamored for "hard" bosses and such. Certain people got benched and it wasn't a "play what was fun" anymore. It was more like vanilla: Fill in Role X or don't play at all.

In summary: According to what I understand from TotalTemic -- BrM will be a little more difficult but still very strong with 2p and incredibly strong with 4p. WW in PvP is a no fly zone -- just... don't unless you are an *incredibly* skilled player. MW is fine in PvE and in 5's and RBG's. You can reach 1550 in 2's -- don't' expect to carry anyone though, glyph for cocoon. You'll need it. That's all *I* believe to know.

[Totaltotemic]

What in the world are you talking about? No one even said anything about MW and this thread isn't about MW at all. Furthermore, WW in PvP has been mediocre at best and unplayable at worst for 3 years now and I don't think anyone said otherwise. I don't know why you'd even bring up PvP when the OP probably wasn't asking about PvP since he mentioned BrM and what you were responding to didn't mention PvP (as rabid PvPers have a tendency to do when it's totally irrelevant just to whine about something).

In the world of PvE, the reason why WWs got some abilities nerfs is the exact same reason why they did in Highmaul, which is that in the upcoming HFC SEF is overpowered as hell and they need to be average or slightly below average to not be the best DPS spec in the game. Even so, what amounts to a ~4% total damage nerf certainly isn't going to mean anything substantial. For some reason, many people playing this game have drastically skewed perceptions of what percentages mean and think that the difference between top DPS and bottom DPS is like 2% when in reality it's typically closer to 30% on any given fight.

The patch notes aren't complicated unless you play Brewmaster. For everyone else, it's fairly apparent what's happening as long as you have an elementary grasp on how percentages work and the real spread of DPS the game actually has. Suggesting that someone take 5 seconds to glance at the patch notes so they can have some kind of meaningful conversation instead of being spoonfed the information by everyone else isn't asking a whole lot.

And for future reference, you don't need evidence to say that a claim that a drastic change is occurring isn't solid. You can't rationally argue against irrational fears that people are going to lose their raid spots over a 4% DPS nerf without even looking at the context of the raid they are happening in. Nothing drastic is changing for WW in 6.2 and that much is obvious just by looking at the patch notes and having the minimum possible understanding of the game to having a coherent conversation.

[Babylonius]

I'm not sure my words have ever been more misconstrued, whether it was accidental or purposeful misunderstanding. The OP of the thread mentioned WW and BrM so I assumed it was about PvE and every comment since has been under that assumption. I don't PvP, never have enjoyed it, so I don't pay attention to what goes on in WW PvP and I can't comment on it. Total covered most of my other thoughts so I won't reiterate them.