Mythic Blackhand problems

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

we need help with Blackhand Mythic.
Here are our logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/YxBPjQrKNcbmhtJG
Our main problem seems to be damage taken (or healing?) in P1. We were able to make it to P2 4-healing without BL just a few times, but we are at try ~200 already. However, we can't make it to phase 2 consistently, so we switched to 5-healing and BL in P1 to practice P2 (we'll go back to 4-healing when we find a way to stabilize P1). On our best try we got him to 48% so that's at least something. I have a few questions though.

1) What can we do to survive P1 better? Damage taken from Massive Demolition and Demolition seems too high when compared to other guilds logs.

2) Any tips for our healers (especially for our paladin, but feel free to give some hints to our other healers, too)? The heal setup will be shaman, druid, monk, paladin. Our priests are on vacation, so no disc for us.

3) Sometimes people die if they soak fire at the beginning of P2, even when 5-healing. I feel that this shouldn't happen at all. Any help with that?

4) a) Speedy/Fiery/Explosive/Reinforced or b) Speedy/Fiery/Reinforced/Explosive?
I (monk tank) have troubles doing b) because the fiery rarely dies in time (6th mark) so I can't get in the middle of the room to spawn the Reinforced. I guess I could manage with teleport though, but which one is preferable?

5) Balconies
Unfortunately, we don't have a stable setup, so this changes from raid to raid. For the next raid, we will probably have: moonkin x2, ele shaman x3, mage x2, hunter x2, warlock, rogue, warrior, dk, monk. I would play like:

Transition: warlock
Smash 1: no one
Smash 2: moonkin 1
Smash 3: moonkin 2
Smash 4: monk
Smash 5: moonkin 1
Smash 6: moonkin 2 / warlock on the other side (+healer if needed)

Do you see any possibility to include the ele shamans, hunters or mages there? Because aside from one moonkin everyone else on the list might not make it every raid until 6.2.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Khebul]

1) Always run as a group. If someone goes faster than the rest, you will likely take much more damage than needed. Use healing/damage reduction CDs liberally in p1 because p2 is not healing intensive at all (if balconies are done right). Make people use personals on demolition 2 and 3, with 3 being the priority.

2) Cannot say much about healing except that 5-healing this fight is not recommended. You are using BL@p1, and you will most certainly fail DPS requirements for p3 because of that. Drop one healer and replace him with hunter if it is possible. Extra fox will help you to heal through p1 easily because you should only have 3 demolitions there.

3) You should not soak fire in places where you will not be standing. Most important places to soak are: speedy demo door, middle of the room, reinforced demo door, furnace between speedy and explosive. The rest of the room does not matter that much. Your hunters, mages, dk and rogues can easily soak 2-3 fires without requiring dispel. Shamans and warlocks can dispel themselves too.

4) Definitely b. Tank boss closer to explosive door, across reinforced one. After fiery one dies, make your other tank take the smash instead of you. Stay near explosive door, and you should have no trouble. Just remember - your other tank will need to taunt the boss after the smash so boss won't go on rampage killing your DPS.

5) Having stable setup is paramount. We did it with 2 moonkins and 1 warlock with order you posted. Warlocks can substitute moonkins due to AoE stun + insane burst AoE. Nobody else can compete with that. Leave your hunters, mages and elems to DPS the boss.

[Cracked]

If your warlock is decent, have him learn placing the portal upstairs so he can solo one of the sides.

Technique is described here:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ortal-question

[Nevalus]

As just having killed blackhand last week in about 350 pulls I can say that reaching p3 at 200 pulls without using hero isn't bad at all. We had quite a few sub 5% wipes and still had issues reaching phase 3 reliably. I think any guild that killed blackhand can say that reaching phase 3 doesn't mean you are close to a kill as phase 2 remains the hardest phase.

Also regarding the soaking of cinders, revival is epic win. Mass dispell the entire raid after soaking if you didn't do this already.

We used method A, the siege not dieing in time is a dps issue. We had an arcane mage tunneling sieges and calling when people should dps and when to stop.

I can't say much about balconies except that we had 1 moonkin only and 2 warlocks doing them. Warlocks are very nice to send up with a healer, let them save dark soul and kill the adds in a single stun as they spawn.

PS: Didn't look at your logs because I'm at work.

[Deleted]

Some have been answered good already, so I'll just cherrypick a few questions.

3) Sometimes people die if they soak fire at the beginning of P2, even when 5-healing. I feel that this shouldn't happen at all. Any help with that?

Have your healers that can afford the glyph slot run with the glyph that gives you 2 charges, and make sure you don't soak fire you don't need to soak.

4) a) Speedy/Fiery/Explosive/Reinforced or b) Speedy/Fiery/Reinforced/Explosive?
I (monk tank) have troubles doing b) because the fiery rarely dies in time (6th mark) so I can't get in the middle of the room to spawn the Reinforced. I guess I could manage with teleport though, but which one is preferable?

My guild runs speedy/fiery/explosive/reinforced. We kill the fiery with the 7th mark, and we have a hunter picking up the last two demos and using feign death to make it go to the demo tank.

5) Balconies
Unfortunately, we don't have a stable setup, so this changes from raid to raid. For the next raid, we will probably have: moonkin x2, ele shaman x3, mage x2, hunter x2, warlock, rogue, warrior, dk, monk. I would play like:

Transition: warlock
Smash 1: no one
Smash 2: moonkin 1
Smash 3: moonkin 2
Smash 4: monk
Smash 5: moonkin 1
Smash 6: moonkin 2 / warlock on the other side (+healer if needed)

Do you see any possibility to include the ele shamans, hunters or mages there? Because aside from one moonkin everyone else on the list might not make it every raid until 6.2.

Obviously moonkins are the best class to clear balconies, it's why we usually run with 3. Otherwise warlocks would be the best ones, but they need a healer, and they usually have a hard time killing the gunners when they're split up, so you can jump up a smash earlier and wait for them to spawn so you can stun and AoE them way easier. Not really sure how other classes will fare at balconies now after the nerf, but before it we usually tried to send up two mages + healer to clear it fast enough if we didn't have a moonkin/warlock that could do it.

Also, for P1, make sure you use stampeding roar at the start of every demolition and that everyone runs immediately when it starts. Hunters should pop fox as soon as it starts so noone needs to interrupt a cast. If possible get a third hunter too, that extra fox will do a lot.

[Spotnick]

Make sure you use Hand of Protection on a healer every demolition so they won't have to move and can heal people.

There is zero reason to 5 heal this fight.

If people die to soaking cinders in phase 2, it's because your healers are not dispelling or people are taking more than 1 stack of it. It's easily healable. Using the glyph for 2 dispells is really good on this fight.

If people take too much damage from demolition they don't go far enough, and don't avoid the little ones enough, as simple as that. At 200 pulls you should be worryingn about phase 3, not phase 1, phase 1 should be set in stone at this point and easy.

[Nevalus]

Also, for P1, make sure you use stampeding roar at the start of every demolition and that everyone runs immediately when it starts. Hunters should pop fox as soon as it starts so noone needs to interrupt a cast. If possible get a third hunter too, that extra fox will do a lot.

We do this differently. We wait with moving untill the second demo is about to spawn. Then you have the first 2 almost next to eachother. We fox as the second demo spawns. Then we just stead pace around in a 300 degree angle so we dont complete the circle. We don't use stampeding at all for moving during demolition. Only to roar out people who get marks and for when we are falling down into p2 for faster soaks.

[Djriff]

Ok, here's what I noticed.

1) You absoultely need an absorb healer. In your 4 heal comp. Make sure you rotate CD's and that everyone is using personals and health pots.

2). Your shaman really needs to step up their game in p1. Your druid needs to seriously work on dispels, 36/45 pulls is terrible. Your holy palladin seems fine.

3) Only soak what you need to, and stay very loosely stacked. You guys spread out way to much. Dispels will help with this too.

4) Tank the siege against the wall, have a bait team for the fire and have a hunter go pull the sieges and FD them to you. It really simplifies the process.

5) We do our setup a little differently but essentially the same. Warlocks are amazing for balconies because they can just stun and burn and jump down and don't necessarily need a healer if they're fast enough.

[Jellospally]

In no way was my alt guilds kill clean but it was pull 97 and the third time we saw P3 but this was my offtanks PoV(what your warrior is doing) http://www.twitch.tv/derouto/v/6048319?t=9m50s

1. P1 don't use Roar. Just do almost a full circle and run farther out of the circle away from the 4th hit and stand in a SLT or Barrier(if you had a disc).

2. Make sure you are using everything you can in P1. As some people said use health pots in P1... DONT DO THAT. Save it for P3 and P3 only.

Here is a CD list I made up RQ... something like is what we use not exact cuz diff comp but ya it works pretty well.

Demo 1: Ele 1 AG, Holy Pally(BoP Self and stand still spam heals), Shaman Tide
Demo 2: Mage 1 Amp, Ele 2 AG, Hunter 1 Fox, Moonkin 1 Vigil, Holy Pally BoP R Druid and Tranq after first pile lands, Shaman SLT before 4th lands(everyone stand in it)
Demo 3: Mage 2 Amp, Ele 3 AG, Hunter 2 Fox, Rogue Bomb, Moonkin 2 Vigil, Shaman Ascend and SLT for the 4th land, Holy Pally Bubble Self and stand still with Wings and heal like a monster
Floor break: Devo
Use Monk Revival as a oh shit basically(can use it at the start of P2 for wiping debuffs if you didnt need in P1)

3. Hunters can soak multiple fires with deterr and take no damage. Melee should be soaking. Everyone should be using CDs that weren't used in P1 in P2 long as they will be up for P3. Only soak fire that is near the Smash Point and where Ranged dps from. The rest doesn't matter.

4. You need to purify more. On my alt guilds kill I staggered 20m damage all of P2 in about 4 minutes and only took 3m stagger. You staggered 9m and took almost 4m stagger in 3 minutes. Hover on that like 10-15 sec shuffle anymore and it doesn't matter. Just purify like a monster every hit. Also, be ready to call out a external for when you get bombed. INSTANTLY... you should be able to see if a bomb is gonna hit you and call it a second ahead of time. Or just be instant with it.

Do Supercharge(teleport over the siege after 3rd marks hit) > Fiery > run to Reinforced once fiery dies > Explosive is brought to you by a rogue or hunter w/e > Supercharge spawns on you > it phases soon after supercharge spawns.

You also don't NEED a hunter to bring you the siege. I have done the siege on DK, Monk, Bear and picked up every single one except explosive(which is always brought by a rogue).

Tank on 4th smash should have the boss far enough over that even when the boss runs at you while you go to reinforced spawn area it will still spawn it. If you send to warlock at the start of P2 and they go up early for 4 on smash 3 no one should go on Smash 4 so you can go farther than needed.

5. Warlocks can go up 1 smash early and wait and kill the adds in like 3 seconds. We had 2 warlocks do all but 1 stand on my alt guilds kill.

They DO NOT need a healer.

Do
Fall Down: Warlock
1. None
2. Moonkin 1 Far
3. Moonkin 2 Close/Warlock Far
4. None
5. Moonkin 1 Close
6. Moonkin 2 Far

(if you had a 2nd lock you could remove Moonkin 2 and have the 2nd lock go up on 2(close), 5(far))

There is no reason to kill stands 7+.

[Deleted]

Hey,

we found it much easier to have our monk tank facetank the sieges against a wall. This did require a hunter/rogue to pick up the last few sieges for the tank and feign just infront of him so he would pick them up.

We have a few point of views up on our guildwebsite. (hunter/mage and BH tank).
http://aggressiveauthority.shivtr.com/

It might help

We personally found that way alot easier and safer.

[Dracodraco]

As a sidenote for your #4 question (explosive or plated first), it really doesn't matter either way - both have drawbacks and positives. The people going "deffo go plated first!" are probably of the conviction that the explosive one might die and explode (spoiler: It has 10M fucking HP. Unless your mages are doing combustions off of it, it ain't gonna die even if it takes 4-5 sets of impales, as long as nobody actually hits it), which isn't the case. To sum it up -

Drawbacks to plated first:

To spawn plated first, your tanks need to be on-the-ball and the fiery needs to die at the exact right moment so you can get out and taunt the boss and still be closer to explosive door than plated. If you can do it, it's easy. If not, it's wipes learning how to. You may also have to spend extra DPS on the fiery to ensure that it dies in time, lowering boss damage.


Another drawback is that impales #7 *has* to go into the plated siege, which is comming down in a straight line from behind the raid. Getting in behind it (and making sure everyone is WELL clear of the extremely far line from boss to the siege) *SHOULDN'T* be a problem if your raiders have brains. But we all know that SOMEONE is going to fuck it up a few times (heck - if you watch one of the first released "facetank" videos that most people drew inspiration from, the guild FatSharkYes, their resto shaman actually fucks this up and gets himself smashed to pieces. EVERYONE fucks up).


Positives to plated first:

The explosive won't take as much damage and can be more easily multidotted for padding (or, incase of demo locks/spriests, actual damage gain. Everyone else are just padding, though).

__________________


Drawbacks to Explosive first:

It might explode early if it gets a lot of slag debuffs and your dps can't keep their hands to themselves (but this is easily checked, and accordingly, yelled at, if people are whoring).

Melee has to run out 2 times in the fiery's lifetime to spawn a fire instead of once, lowering boss damage.


Positives to explosive first:

4 impales go into the fiery, which means you essentially need zero dps on it - after the smash, boss runs to the siege tank, and then spawns a set of bombs that will slag it (that it normally wouldn't get). This means that the SEVENTH impale (the one that usually goes into plated) will hit the fiery for slagged bonus damage, meaning it'll essentially cut 25% of it's hp off. This means you get to do MORE dps to the boss, which makes up for the melee running out twice.
Usually, that impale dmg is totally wasted on the plated.

The seventh impale won't be comming into the siege at an akward angle - every single impale in the entire fight except for impale #4 (the first one going into fiery) is literally just "run into the corner behind siege position". Cuts down brainwork, helps bads not be (as) bad.

Tanks can focus on positioning on the smash (I think it's 4th?) to make sure the boomkin/Whatever gets up (be close to demo to let them blink through with impale), rather than run the boss far away to make sure the correct siege spawns. Improves balcony success rate, if you don't have melee assigned to that specific balcony (I think it might be the one your monk does, so a bit W/E).


The differences are fairly minor, but I'd deffo say as long as you can get your dps to not multidot the explosive, it's a lot "safer" in terms of potential fuckups. There's also the fact that as the hunter who delivers sieges, this order makes my life easier in two ways -

One: With plated comming in after the explosive, it means you want to drag the plated through the explosive and then feign it onto the tank - essentially I just have to run in a straight line down, following the wall. If it was the other way around, I'd want to feign the explosive behind the plated, which gets tricky - especially as it's probably spawning at the worst possible angle to do that - I'd either have to drag it to the plated's spawn (across the map), then down the plated's normal route, OR drag the explosive one straight across, then angle up towards the ranged WHILE impales are going out, get it into the corner and then down and feign behind the tank, risking multiple hits on myself and panic from the impale targets.
Neither are good options, but there might be better ways of doing it (we stopped doing it fairly quickly, so I haven't tested a lot - other kiters may be able to provide insight?).

Two: The impale that goes out RIGHT as the fourth engine spawns. It has a very high probability of happening BEFORE the fixate takes place, which means if you're a hunter, it might target you (a rogue is immune to this, but we only went with 3 melee on kill, so using a rogue wasn't possible as he was off soaking fire).
If it happens while I'm getting the explosive, tough fucking luck. You're getting an impale to the face, or trying to do some 360 noscope disengage behind the engine then hoping you survive the hits and get it in place in time for the next impales.
If it happens while I'm picking up plated? I'm so close to the explosive that I can actually get my fixate, and then run down in safety behind the explosive before the impale goes out. No issues.

[Deleted]

Thank a lot guys, lots of good advice here.

We tried to incorporate some of the ideas into our strat (running further away from Massive Demolition in P1, changing healer CDs a bit etc) and i think we made some solid progress. 4-healing worked much better now, damage was mostly fine, although we had to use BL before Demolition #3 a few times if we were behind due to deaths. Had a few trys around the 40% mark (38% best).

Logs from yesterday: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1704&wipes=1

Towards the end people started disconnecting etc so it got a little worse, but overall it was a good day for us.

@draco and jellos

Very interesting reads, which came in during/after our raid, so we couldn't make much use out of them, but hopefully next raid.
We went with Reinforced #3 (which was brought to me by our hunter since we had our WL on the near side every time as suggested earlier). Spawning it wasn't that much of a problem after i got the teleport timing right.
Didn't know that Explosive #4 had to be taken by a rogue, but this shouldn't be a problem, because we can use 2x melee + monk heal for baiting.

If you have other advice for us, keep it coming. With the patch probably coming next week, we have two raid days left. Little time, but if can make it to phase 3 next time we might kill him on the very last day.

Again, thanks a lot everyone.

[katerra]

Not sure if it was pointed out or not but why are none of your healers using their personal healing cooldowns , the shaman's ascendance, the pally's avenging wrath. They tremendously add to the healing output in phase 1. Stagger the healing cooldowns per demolition, divine hymn, tranquility, and revival for the last and you can either stagger how the healers use their personal healing cooldowns or if the 3rd one is a lot rougher than the others have them use it for the 3rd one. Also, your priest should really be disc for this fight if you only have one priest. Absorbs are tremendous in this fight.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kzPGXMBNWHRvqgmA

Many more P2 tries, with 33% being our best. We've seen everything of P2 and have a tactic that works if no one fucks up.
For Monday we'll have the best setup we can field. Our disc will probably replace our holy pala and a second warlock will replace the one moonkin who couldn't manage balconies.

Questions:

1) Would you recommend 3 melees or do you think we can manage realistically with just 2? For P2 fire baiting it is easy since the monk heal can join the melees, but what about P3 smashes? I (monk tank) might be able to get in every time with CDs even with bomb debuff, but it seems very risky. Seems better to me if I get in only when a melee is slagged.

2) Falling Debris: Should everyone with an immunity try and soak a debris? We can make use of hunter x3, mage x2 or x1 and rogue x1 for melee range debris. Would that be enough?

3) Marked for Death: Is there any addon or weakaura you could recommend for Marked for Death spacing? In every video there is some kind of addon or weakaura which says left, middle and right, but i'm not sure if DBM can do this.

@katerra

I'm not sure what you mean. They use their CDs at certain times (the paladin on Massive Demolition 3, for example).

Big thanks to everyone who replied so far, you've been a massive help.

[Jellospally]

1. We use both tanks + 2 melee personally. The 100% dmg taken isn't that bad on my monk I just guard it or spam a couple expels in mid air. Warrior might not want to though. Prob have war do every bomb and monk do smashes with 3 melee.

2. We have set locations for those. This is what we had for blackhand: http://gyazo.com/5acf4290dae72916c7a5c3d5825a86f5 (This is from our speed kill week but its generally the same), but you can see our P3 soaking in the top right picture.

3. We have a weakaura, but I can't provide it because I never dl'd it due to I can't get mark unless every single person is dead heh. I've seen some around the MMO forums a while back they are somewhere in old pages in the Interface/Macro section.

[Triggi]

3) Marked for Death: Is there any addon or weakaura you could recommend for Marked for Death spacing? In every video there is some kind of addon or weakaura which says left, middle and right, but i'm not sure if DBM can do this.

DBM has that option yes. BigWigs users have to download a seperate module for it, but it will work with DBM so there wont be two Right marks or some other shit.

[Deleted]

3) Marked for Death: Is there any addon or weakaura you could recommend for Marked for Death spacing? In every video there is some kind of addon or weakaura which says left, middle and right, but i'm not sure if DBM can do this.

I made this WA for my guild -> http://pastebin.com/Kec8Vrr4
it only works in combination with the icons DBM puts on the 'Mark for Death' (also synced with the DBM voice tool).
depending on your icon (star, circle, diamond), you get one of 3 progress bars (showing the duration of the debuff incl. timer + your direction) + warning sound 'Air Horn' + say massage '<<< LEFT / || MIDDLE || / RIGHT >>>'.

scrrenshot: http://i.imgur.com/7SdsgJU.jpg
you can see the WA in this video - warlock pov (our 2. kill) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5aeQZQx8sA

[Hofazius]

Thank you for your advice. Just killed him at 10:30PM, ~2.5h before the patch maintenance begins! Wuuuh!

[Deleted]

Thank you for your advice. Just killed him at 10:30PM, ~2.5h before the patch maintenance begins! Wuuuh!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Hpm9njbXtgyhDc8M

Yeah, we finally got it. Had a heartbreaking 450k wipe, but everyone pulled themselves together and the boss died next try. The community was really helpful, thanks a lot to everyone who helped us.

[allhenyia]

we found it much easier to have our monk tank facetank the sieges against a wall.