"We will overhaul Demonology in a future patch"

[Jessicka]

Ah, you're thinking I'm replying to Watcher directly. That's the issue. I didn't bring the "fantasy" thing up, it was a reply to the poster above me.

The Demonology fantasy thing had been brought up on twitter in regards to pruning things like GrimSac from the spec. My contention all along was that a Demo Lock did not need a permapet to feel like a Demo Lock, but Celestalon's words suggested that Sac Demo didn't adequately meet the fantasy.

I can understand that, given the clamour for a 'use' for the Felguard throughout Cataclysm beyond Felstorm at the pull because 'iconic pet'. Again, that isn't the same as 'revamp to make Demonology more Demonology', when the issue is 'revamp Demo to make it less addon dependant." It's unlikely we'll see anything like as drastic changes as some are suggesting, since the particular issues regarding addons and complexity were raised during Beta with very specific complaints; which iirc were:

- Lack of clarity on Chaos Wave Vs Hand of Gul'an 'when to use'
- Hand of Gul'dan stacking
- Ridiculous 'high end' AoE burst with nothing at the 'low end' because too many buttons impact net AoE damage, ties into Mannoroth's Fury that's barely used hurting that low end even more because it's not taken, because encounters are usually 'ST Priority' rather than about AoE
- Demonbolt stacks/tracking and complete unintuitivety
- Too much weight in Cataclysm + stacked cooldowns
- For me at least, Molten Core stacks is enough to tracks, having a timer on them as well seems unnecessary and unnecessarily punitive (I use Imp Swarm Glyph so can get long enough droughts for them to drop)

That's my take anyway, and I think because of the Metamorphosis modifier the difference between using a spell in Meta with a proc or without becomes more significant than it perhaps does with other specs. I don't think Blizzard actually see that as part of the problem though, given their relentless buffing of Mastery, so I don't think that's something to worry about; which is ironic given that's exactly where the huge delta and main use of addons comes from. :S

I think there's room there to streamline, like toning down the AoE removing the splash from HoG and/or removing Chaos Wave and bumping that damage back into real AoE spells where it belongs, without completely changing what Demo has 'become'. Clearly the 100 talents have their impact as well, and I've made no secret about how I've been unhappy with any of them since they were implemented.

[Pockitt]

What you're most likely to see is just trimming the excess (awkward) complexity. Something along the lines of this:

Corruption removed and Doom castable in normal form.
Molten Core redesigned.
Chaos Wave delinked from Hand of Gul'dan.

Although, those are changes better suited for a new expansion.

Because keeping up TWO DoTs was really complex..

[Dietrik]

Keeping the two dots up is not complex, a lot of specs have more....

Fury management and MC stack management is more complex, add dot management, cd management, deciding on the caster form spell or the meta spell... on top of that add everything else you must do in a raid already.

When to go into meta?
When to come out of meta?
When should i use DS? Should i glyph it?
When to use MC stacks?
When to use ToC vs SF?
When to use SB vs SF?
When to use HoG vs CW?
When to use Doom guard.
Refresh Corruption manually or by ToC?
When do i use my second charge of HoG? OK what about the third with the set bonus?
When should i use Imp Swarm?
Demonbolt simplifies most of the above, but manage stacks and cost?
Oh yeah the part people all talk about, keeping two dots up.

Almost all of these questions have been asked by new players to demo. Individually all of those questions are easy to answer, but some rely on the answers to others and some have "well it depends on" answers.

I pug frequently, people seem to play demo because they have heard that they should. Most suck at it because they really don't understand it or maybe don't have the right addons or both.

I like Demo how is it today, i don't want it dumbed down... But the skill cap or even difficulty for average play is pretty high compared to dest/affliction.

[Netherspark]

Because keeping up TWO DoTs was really complex..

It has nothing to do with the number of dots. The issue is having dots restricted to specific forms.

[Bluesftw]

cut all fun abilities, leave 3 buttons+cd, thats how blizz makes overhauls lately... catering to audience with bonus chromosomes i guess...

[TheRickyB]

would love Cata Demo back, was my favorite time playing lock.

[Pockitt]

It has nothing to do with the number of dots. The issue is having dots restricted to specific forms.

Doom lasts an entire minute. There's nothing complex about hitting a button to press another button every minute - especially with DoT snapshotting being non-existent.

[Ultramad]

Doom lasts an entire minute. There's nothing complex about hitting a button to press another button every minute - especially with DoT snapshotting being non-existent.

My big problem is often trying to work out mixing in my burn status while lining up my dots to be refreshed before the burn, while also not capping out HoG/Fury/MC procs at the same time. So as demo I always always need to remember: Is my burn phase coming up? If yes: Get into meta and refresh doom if near 20 seconds, yet you also need to not refresh it during burn phase which could be 40-60 seconds away. Bleed some fury if needed at the same time if near cap or use an MC charge, unless you're not near mc cap. Then go back to caster and refresh corruption right before burn phase engage. Use my HoGs while also remembering that I can't cap fury, and can't cap MCs and have to enter meta again shortly with a full corruption. Enter meta, hit serv doomguard macro, hit DS, burn like a mo-fo and try to match late BMC stacks/trinket seconds with a CW if impossible to get another SF off, or if there are adds.

I'm sorry but that is not intuitive gameplay. That is an extremely complicated set of conditions to meet that you have to keep track of and setup multiple times every encounter nevermind usually dodging random trains, or repositioning for soaking blade dash, or avoiding bombs, or running bombs to furnaces, it just gets to be too much.

I absolutely hate hate hate how conditional dependent demonology is and every time I make a mistake and I cap fury, or MC charges, or I let a dot fall off during burn phase and lower my % uptime on one of my dots it literally destroys me inside and I want to quit. It is incredibly tedious and I dislike this spec the way it is.

[Kirroth]

I don't think Blizzard actually see that as part of the problem though, given their relentless buffing of Mastery

I wouldn't read anything into that. The Devs have said more than once that Mastery is an excellent spec-specific damage tuning knob. It's simple, fairly direct in effect, and neatly avoid any issue with abilities shared over multiple specs of the class. Tweaks to the effectiveness of Mastery show up everywhere, not just with Demo or Warlocks.

[Pockitt]

My big problem is often trying to work out mixing in my burn status while lining up my dots to be refreshed before the burn, while also not capping out HoG/Fury/MC procs at the same time.

Except that refreshing Doom is extremely forgiving since Meta only has a 10 second cooldown.

[kamuii]

Plot twist, they are removing metamorphosis so they can implement demon hunters!

Plot twist, demon hunter is the third lock spec and it's gonna be melee.

[Meejum]

would love Cata Demo back, was my favorite time playing lock.

that's not fair. triple dipping doomguard, being in melee for shadowflame which was way to strong and a collection of trinkets that were too much mastery heavy slid the scale too far. Well, you did have pet twisting then, which was utterly awful.

wotlk demo wasn't too bad from a playstyle aspect, other than having to life tap for a spirit bonus.

[Deleted]

Plot twist, demon hunter is the third lock spec and it's gonna be melee.

that wouldnt even surprise me and then ofc some ppl will go "AND IT WILL BE A TANK SPEC AHMAGAWD!"

[Deleted]

It would be fun to think they'd make demonology radically different in flavour to destruction/affliction, putting even more damage into demons that require more active management, making meta have a majority or even full uptime and turning it into a melee spec. There's precedent for classes to contain radically different specs (druids for example)

Sadly, I don't think it will happen.

Demo will get tuned down to the state of everything else. It'll be Beastmastery with a demon in place of an animal and the equivalent of arcane shot and multishot.

Warcraft today seems all about catering for the player who likes to be spoonfed and get instant gratification.

[Gohzerlock]

Could we change this thread to "we will overhaul demonology in a future expansion"

[Stacyrect]

Fix it till its broken blizz, amen

[Count Zero]

I just wonder what the general plan is. Demo has been about burst for a long time, and it seems like that's only recently become a problem (I'd argue a lot of it has to do with the t17 set bonus, but ...).

I'm guessing they also want to reduce its mobility. So reduce, but not eliminate, burst and mobility ... unless they plan on at least small overhauls for Afflic and Destro as well, to re-arrange their niches.

Thing is ... I don't see it being necessary to do a major overhaul to reduce those strengths. So that's why I'm wondering what direction they're wanting to go.

[Deleted]

I'm sure they are too. I think we just got the "too many people switching to demo, just nerf it so affliction and destruction look more attractive as in all three are equally a dog's dinner" solution because the warlock class is just a mess and they have no idea what they want to do with it or where to go from here

[Duckz0rs]

I really hope an overhaul of the talents, specifically the higher level ones, are going to be a key part of this overhaul..

And that they don't bring back pet twisting by some stroke of stupidity. More focus on summons I'd definitely be up for, but nothing like the hellish pet twisting please.

[Gaidax]

I'm for overhaul with both hands... honestly, I hope they get rid of Shadow Bolt and even Corruption... both are weak ass, unremarkable spells that make me feel bad for having to use them. One is a 2.5 seconds cast that does pitiful damage (so it's both slow AND weak), another is a DoT that barely does anything. Really, Soul Fire should just be a baseline spell with Molten Core effect fused into it and it should simply apply Corruption passively (or just remove that trash DoT really) and Meta should change it to some badass spell with a cast time.

Honestly they should just replace Shadow Bolt with Searing Pain (weak, but at least fast cast!) and make it change to Soul Fire when in Meta... and get rid of the whole Molten Core nonsense.

I'd start with that really.