Poll: Should Blizz bring 'back' 10 man mythic (while keeping 20 man mythic the real deal)?

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  1. #1

    Arrow Should Blizzard bring 'back' 10m mythic raids?

    ... maybe with a slightly lower item level and embrace the fact that it can't be tuned quite as hard as 20m?


    It seems to me that besides other problems (garrison prisons etc) the new 20 man mythic raids are a nail in the coffin of many old small heroic (now mythic) guilds who like to stay family&friends size instead of recruiting 10+ more people/merge with 1-2 other guilds.

    Some people say: "transition to 20m mythic, it's easy" and from their perspective that may be true - however it ignores the simple reality that a lot of players can't do that or don't want to do that for one reason or another. Many successful ex-10H raiders of past xpacs find themselves out of raid content this time around in an expansion where there is literally nothing else to do besides raiding. Blizzard might have hoped that they'd transition into 20m mythic, but you can't ignore the simple reality that this doesn't happen as much as they might have expected. Instead, these players take a break until the next tier or unsub and play another game.
    This will only get worse as the expansion continues and will also have ramifications on guilds who managed to transition to 20 man mythic as the pool of competent players dwindles and recruitment gets harder and harder.
    In my opinion everybody should be concerned about this development. Yes, even players who successfully transitioned to 20m mythic. The customer base of an MMORPG is an asset in itself. Less raiding players = less people to recruit. And on a higher level: less subs = less money for future content.

    Blizzard removed the old ex-H10 raid content and does not offer a suitable alternative for many people. In my opinion the removal of options/content is rarely a good idea.
    I don't like PvP for example, that's why I don't play it - but I can see that there are people who do enjoy it. Yes, if Blizzard would get rid of PvP, in the short term that might even have a positive effect on my own experience because offered the alternative "PvE or quit" it might make some more players do PvE content and Blizzard could concentrate on balancing PvE. But it would surely alienate a lot of players who liked the previously offered content, who liked PvP and it would drive them away from the game. Ultimately in my opinion it would do more harm than good, and I think it's the same thing with the removal of the ex-H10 raid content.

    It would be great if 10 + 10 = 20, but in this case it just doesn't work that way for many players.

    Ion Hazzikostas said they like the 20m format and guilds were dying all the time. I think having a single hardest difficulty level with a fixed number of players has its merits - however many small guilds don't care about world firsts and stuff, they'd rather stay small and still have something to do after normal (now heroic) mode.

    At least I'd rather do 10m mythic with my small guild and get a few less item levels than saying "gz, we beat heroic. now we can unsub until the next raid tier comes out".

    Blizzard said tuning an additional raid difficulty only takes 5% of their dev time, so it surely wouldn't be hard to implement.

    It should share a lockout with 20m mythic of course to prevent players from thinking that they have to farm both 10m and 20m like in WotLK.

    Looking at the MMOC numbers some weeks ago you can see that about 20% of all players have killed nearly all BRF heroic bosses. Yet only 5% managed to kill the easiest mythic boss. I think it's safe to assume that many(most?) of the people who clear heroic but can't even kill one mythic boss don't manage to do so because they're in a 20m guild which is just too bad, but because they don't have the players to even do mythic raids regularly. I think this raid content hole after heroic for smaller guilds needs to be filled.
    I also think that taking an entire raid tier away from 10 man guilds is especially problematic in an expac where there is literally nothing else to do besides raiding and guilds having to deal with players losing interest in the game at a rate never seen before.

    I can see where Blizzard was coming from, but I don't think it is working out. I don't blame them for trying something new, but it's important to recognize when your experiment didn't have the desired results and do something about it.




    edit: a lot of people are pointing out that you can't achieve equality between mythic 10m and 20m, but that's in fact my point.
    If you don't like to call it 10m mythic, let's call it something else then. "epic". "slightly less mythic than mythic, but still pretty tough".
    The key features should just be:
    1. harder then heroic to give 10m guilds something to do after heroic.
    2. shared lockout with mythic, slightly lower item level.

    edit²: I'm quite aware that the raid difficulties were renamed in WoD and technically there has never been a "mythic" 10 man raid so far.

    MoP WoD
    LfR -> LfR
    Flex -> Normal
    Normal 10/25 -> Heroic
    Heroic 10/25 -> ??? /Mythic 20

    But to keep the title short and avoid confusion with the old pre-WoD nomenclature I've decided to use the new name and put "back" in quotation marks.
    Last edited by Tx20; 2015-06-21 at 10:31 AM.

  2. #2
    Brewmaster Cwimge's Avatar
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    Seems fair enough. From the perspective of a player whose never going to set foot in a mythic run I didn't pay for the fixed size is only bringing back guild stability problems- sure let mythic be a crucible that consumes players and destroys guilds. So long as its the fights rather then the logistics of bringing 20 people there
    Wrath baby and proud of it

  3. #3
    no, beat the recruitment boss or be satisfied with heroic. this is comming from a member of a guild that has not been able to beat the recruitment boss to this point either but i think mythic is fine as 20 man and should stay that way. if 20 people is too big of a crowd for you then i have really no advice to give, as this is a MMO.

  4. #4
    There are already four difficulty levels of raiding. Why do we need a fifth between Heroic and Mythic? Especially one which exclusively panders towards players unwilling or too lazy to recruit for Mythic? Blizzard gave 10M guilds more than a year to prepare for Mythic, if you want to remain a "small guild that doesn't care about world firsts" then I hope you continue to enjoy Heroic raiding because that's all you deserve to clear.

  5. #5
    Since you asked; no.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Archmage Alodi's Avatar
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    Since you asked; Yes.
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    THE HORDE IS STRONG!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    There are already four difficulty levels of raiding. Why do we need a fifth between Heroic and Mythic?
    It would really be no different to MoP for example, though. 10m and 25m heroic shared a raid lockout and although Blizzard tried to make them similar they had in fact often different difficulty levels, sometimes 10m and sometimes 25m were harder.

    My proposal would just be to accentuate this a bit on the 10m side and let it reflect this in item levels (because many people seem to care about them).
    Last edited by Tx20; 2015-06-15 at 07:34 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tx20 View Post
    It would really be no different to MoP for example, though. 10m and 25m heroic shared a raid lockout and had different difficulty levels, although sometimes 10m and sometimes 25m were harder.
    So basically, undo the one single good thing WoD did for the raiding scene by re-engaging the idiotic 10v25m "real raiding" debate?

    <snip>
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2015-06-17 at 12:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Addict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    Since you asked; no.
    This guy knows whats up.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    So basically, undo the one single good thing WoD did for the raiding scene by re-engaging the idiotic 10v25m "real raiding" debate?
    There would be no debate, 20m would be the real deal. It would be more about giving 10m guilds at least something to do after beating normal mode (now heroic).
    Last edited by Tx20; 2015-06-15 at 07:41 AM.

  11. #11
    Were you here during WotLK? Maybe you want to make a compromise now but as soon as there is a 10 and 20 man raid size the forums will be filled with complaints over loot and whatnot and arguments about 10 man being just as hard as 20 man.

    They tried before, it didn't work out. Deal with it.

    And how do guilds not find new players after so much time? What has it been now? 1,5 years?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tx20 View Post
    There would be no debate, 20m would be the real deal. It would be more about giving 10m guilds at least something to do after beating normal mode (now heroic).
    Yeah, dream on.

  12. #12
    Keep 20 man mythic as the "official" mythic mode, then say, 4-6 weeks later enable mythic to be flex-mode?
    Gives plenty of the time for the competitive guilds to go thru it, while also allowing everyone else access to it regardless of rooster. Would also leave no doubt on which is the "real" mythic as far as the old 10v25 debate goes. Hell, could even make the drops 5 ilvl's lower or something.
    One of the things that made me only login 1xday to send out missions was clearing out heroic and being stuck doing nothing, since I'm not able to raid on schedule. This'd definetely help.

  13. #13
    Another one of these threads? Do people not read what Blizzard has said repeatedly about this issue or the ten thousand other threads on this issue that repeate the same things Blizzard has said along with a hundred other reasons why it can't and shouldn't happen. Blizzard tried for almost a decade to balance the most difficult content in the game around multiple raid sizes, and it never, ever, ever, ever worked correctly for smaller raid sizes like 10 man.

    Things like damage and health tuning always had to be under tuned compared to the larger raid sizes, far too many people got excluded strictly because of their class due to limited available slots and they couldn't use encounter mechanics that required special comps like more than 2 tanks.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Were you here during WotLK?
    Yes, and I liked it. I only did 10m in WotLK and didn't care about better loot in 25m. (Of course many people did both and felt burned out, but I'm proposing a shared lockout anyways.)


    Quote Originally Posted by teangjivi View Post
    I hope you continue to enjoy Heroic raiding because that's all you deserve to clear.
    Thanks for your opinion. I feel honored that you bothered to make a new mmoc account just for me.
    Last edited by Tx20; 2015-06-15 at 07:48 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tx20 View Post
    There would be no debate, 20m would be the real deal.
    If that's the case, then all you're asking for is a slightly harder version of Heroic that drops slightly better gear. It wouldn't be Mythic raiding, it wouldn't be Heroic raiding, it'd just be some weird middle-of-the-road raid difficulty which has no place in the current gear progression design philosophy. You raid LFR to gear for Normal, Normal to gear for Heroic, Heroic to gear for Mythic... but what the fuck would you raid this difficulty for? The smug satisfaction of having something to do after clearing Heroic? If you're not going to have new Mythic-only type mechanics then it's completely moot.

  16. #16
    10/20 myth would be better than the existing "20 only" system, although I'd prefer a flexible mythic mode.

    Before WoD I had slightly different reasons why I preferred 10m to 25m (being closer to the people, less crowdyness, less hardware req, more personal responsibility), but now my main reason is the "recruitment boss" (really like that name^^).

    I'm in a guild that could progress a *bit* in mythic when almost all players of our guild were available. 1-2 players more and we'd have killed a few more bosses. But recruitment today is a huge PITA, especially when you're sitting on a traditional, small RP server. Our GL and main officer are searching for trials every fucking day. The comb the forums, they spam in channels, they do headhunting. They tell me that even undergeared DPS players are getting swarmed by recruiters from all sorts of different myth guilds who all hope that this player might be the rough diamond everyone is looking for.

    I feel this sort of constant strain on my friends (&family) is unfair. Raiding should not become a 2nd job for those who happen to organize it. And if bad luck happens (yay! finally enough players for a stable roster! -> massive ban wave which got 3 new recruits "perma" banned) and 21 people feel disappointed because they know all they can do for the next couple of weeks - unless every single one of them has nothing else on schedule - will be heroic (which we are steamrolling in 1,5 h), the recruiters feel even worse. Sometimes I really fear that they might burn out and quit altogether...


    So... myth flex pls.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Slicer299 View Post
    Blizzard tried for almost a decade to balance the most difficult content in the game around multiple raid sizes, and it never, ever, ever, ever worked correctly for smaller raid sizes like 10 man.
    The beauty of this is: You wouldn't have to balance this around multiple raid sizes. Only 10 players.
    If you're concerned about naming it "10m mythic", let's name it differently then.
    "pretty mythic, but not quite as mythic as with 20 people"

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slicer299 View Post
    Blizzard tried for almost a decade to balance the most difficult content in the game around multiple raid sizes, and it never, ever, ever, ever worked correctly for smaller raid sizes like 10 man.

    Things like damage and health tuning always had to be under tuned compared to the larger raid sizes, far too many people got excluded strictly because of their class due to limited available slots and they couldn't use encounter mechanics that required special comps like more than 2 tanks.
    OP's suggestion already fixes that. 10-man should be for family & friends, not some world 1st race. 10 man was perfectly fine for most of us 2 years ago, and it will be perfectly fine if Blizzard adds it back in again.

    I'm not hopeful though. It's a shame because our server is now almost dead, partly because raiders wanted to raid with their friends. Not with PUGs.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    but what the fuck would you raid this difficulty for? The smug satisfaction of having something to do after clearing Heroic?
    Well, what do you raid mythic 20m for? May it also be "the smug satisfaction of having something to do after clearing Heroic?"
    Because that's just what it is. Having something to do after having beaten the easier content.

    The raid mechanics obviously would need to reflect the harder difficulty as good as it can be done with 10 people only.
    Last edited by Tx20; 2015-06-15 at 07:59 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Slicer299 View Post
    Another one of these threads? Do people not read what Blizzard has said repeatedly about this issue or the ten thousand other threads on this issue that repeate the same things Blizzard has said along with a hundred other reasons why it can't and shouldn't happen. Blizzard tried for almost a decade to balance the most difficult content in the game around multiple raid sizes, and it never, ever, ever, ever worked correctly for smaller raid sizes like 10 man.

    Things like damage and health tuning always had to be under tuned compared to the larger raid sizes, far too many people got excluded strictly because of their class due to limited available slots and they couldn't use encounter mechanics that required special comps like more than 2 tanks.
    Honestly, I would be less pissed about 20 myth IF the devs really added mechanics in myth that absolutely required 20 people. Stuff like the spellsteal encounter, the mind control encounter, a debuff that needs to be soaked with AMS, something with 3 tanks or 8 healers or heck even stuff akin to Thorim that required players to go elsewhere while the rest of the group fights off baddies. Right now the only class that feels "required" is hunter and even their job can be emulated with a bit DPS loss by some ranged class (Fox will be eliminated in 6.2 so... yeah).

    I understand why that happened: Because every other difficulty is flex so the "base mechanics" of a fight have to be flexibe as well. And the myth mechanics happened to be so generic that they simply didn't proceed to warrant the existence of a fixed 20 man mode. So... either add mechanics that require more players in myth of go full flex. Right now, the limitation feels awkward

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