Greece, 12 days till bankrupt

[Holofernes]

jesus. Varoufakis is doing the only logical thing to do. If greece stays in the euro, they will be paying debts forever. (like the irish do).

The problem is that Europe doesnt accept that the money is lost (it was lost by the banks investing in greece, and the Eu-governments reimbursed them), because they fear there own voters for what they did (bailing out the banks with tax money). Thats why they cant make a proper deal with greece.

[Deleted]

jesus. Varoufakis is doing the only logical thing to do. If greece stays in the euro, they will be paying debts forever. (like the irish do).

The problem is that Europe doesnt accept that the money is lost (it was lost by the banks investing in greece, and the Eu-governments reimbursed them), because they fear there own voters for what they did (bailing out the banks with tax money). Thats why they cant make a proper deal with greece.

So the EU should just pardon the Greek debt?
How about Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy? Is Greece better than the other countries to have a "let's just forget about it" solution?
And what if the debt is pardoned, does Greece have the auto sustainability to restart their economy? Or even worse, if Greece gets to default again after the pardon, do they have the "reliability" for future investments?

The money is not the Greek problem man (and per say de EU problem)... The problem is the confidence that Greece transpire to future investor.

[hellhamster]

Regarding the IMF report that justifies debt haircut and 50 billion euro bailout: Eurogroup was actively trying to block its publication, Dijselbloem lied about its date.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0PD20120150703

[Shalcker]

I cant believe that in Europe of 2015 people like Varoufakis get even close to decision-making positions.

That fuckhead is prepared to throw his whole nation under the bus because of a fucking principles? If whole of Europe would have had leaders like him back in 2008-2010 when crisis his EU the hardest, I swear we`d be having another continental war.

I hope every citizen of European Union and European continent is watching this circus closely and I hope they are smart enough to realize what happens when you elect populist clowns.

Varoufakis says (and said for some time) same thing as latest IMF report. Greek debt is not sustainable in any way with any conceivable reforms, and the only way for them to get out of it is serious debt reductions.

Anyone who insists that reforms without debt reduction CAN improve their situation is either misinformed or pushes some kind of agenda that has nothing to do with Greek debt sustainability (and obviously has nothing to do with actual Greek recovery).

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So the EU should just pardon the Greek debt?

They should either postpone all debt payments until Greek situation improved, or write it off completely. Requesting that they do debt payments, keep budget surplus, and grow their economy all at the same time is impossible to achieve - IMF report says that even if they perform as best performers in Europe and reform like nothing else matter they'll still be in debt by the middle of the century.

How about Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy? Is Greece better than the other countries to have a "let's just forget about it" solution?

Greece is worse then them, which is exactly why they cannot do same thing any longer.

And what if the debt is pardoned, does Greece have the auto sustainability to restart their economy?

Actually they already did, that's what "budget surplus" means.

Or even worse, if Greece gets to default again after the pardon, do they have the "reliability" for future investments?

They'll obviously will be cut off from money markets for a while until they will show consistent growth.

The money is not the Greek problem man (and per say de EU problem)... The problem is the confidence that Greece transpire to future investor.

They cannot create confidence if their situation will continue to deteriorate - and with current European plans pushed to Greece it will.

[GG you got me]

Shame people aren't willing to broach the concept that Greece may be beyond the point of any conventional salvation, and its best use might simply be as an example to the rest of the world. The debt they've incurred is bad enough but the way Greek society dances around fiscal responsibility should be reason enough to take them to task.

The point that Greece may not be able to pay is completely aside in light of the fact that the Greek people have never thought they should pay in the first place. Not their taxes, not their debts, nothing. I'm not overly concerned with a rebound of Greece unless it follows a severe realignment of the Greek people's perception of international & domestic economics.

[ati87]

Varoufakis says (and said for some time) same thing as latest IMF report. Greek debt is not sustainable in any way with any conceivable reforms, and the only way for them to get out of it is serious debt reductions.

Anyone who insists that reforms without debt reduction CAN improve their situation is either misinformed or pushes some kind of agenda that has nothing to do with Greek debt sustainability (and obviously has nothing to do with actual Greek recovery).

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They should either postpone all debt payments until Greek situation improved, or write it off completely. Requesting that they do debt payments, keep budget surplus, and grow their economy all at the same time is impossible to achieve - IMF report says that even if they perform as best performers in Europe and reform like nothing else matter they'll still be in debt by the middle of the century.

Greece is worse then them, which is exactly why they cannot do same thing any longer.

Actually they already did, that's what "budget surplus" means.

They'll obviously will be cut off from money markets for a while until they will show consistent growth.

They cannot create confidence if their situation will continue to deteriorate - and with current European plans pushed to Greece it will.

The only reason why Greece has worsened during the last few years is because the governments haven't really done much in structural reforms.

Lets also not forget the massive protests that have effected greece the last few years (oil crisis for example) that all more or less destroyed the the engine of the greek economy.

The biggest blame lies with the current Greek government and anybody saying otherwise is wilfully ignorant. The banking system is a fundimiatal part of almost every countries economy and the fact that their is a run going on right now in Greece just shows the suicidal tendencies of the Greek government. You do not call out a referendum (which everybody sees as either staying or leaving the EU), close the bloody banks for a week, limit the bloody withdraws during the week and then wonder why the economy is getting ruined.

How many bank runs have their been since the current government got elected? Every single time it chips away at the suitability of the financial system when you have the country as a whole withdrawing every single penny they have.

This is all on Greece, the EU isn't just making a economical decision is also has to make a political decision. Its better to let Greek default then to actually forgive their debt for the EU because if they did pardon some of the debt it would really make set a bad example the next time some country decides to borrow so they can live like kings.

You want to fix the Greek economy? It's kind of easy actually. Reduce government spending to normal levels, increase revenue to normal levels (and please don't mention that tax avoidance is needed) and rebalance the economy.

Kind of a shame I don't get a Nobel prize or at least a column in a newspaper for this because, most of these anti austerity economist look at Greece at the wrong angle. They compare pre crisis to now which is fundamentally flawed.

You don't compare the way of living of somebody that managed to borrow enough money so he could buy a castle and live like a king to the same guy few years later that lost his castle because he borrowed to much money.

[Deleted]

They should either postpone all debt payments until Greek situation improved

Best solutions for Greece and EU imho, but this requires changes on the Greek reality.
This will give space for Greece growth and to amend their "image", but they need reforms to improve growth and to cut excessive expense.

Greece is worse then them, which is exactly why they cannot do same thing any longer.

Even so there will be pressure from those countries to have a similar solution, even if indirectly.

Actually they already did, that's what "budget surplus" means.

And we all know how it ended right?

They'll obviously will be cut off from money markets for a while until they will show consistent growth.

Of course, as they were in previous defaults. And now those previous defaults weight heavily on the investors, nobody likes to invest in "lost causes" or in constant negative occurrences. And that is exactly why they need "reliability".

And you can see that with uneducated poster here.

They cannot create confidence if their situation will continue to deteriorate - and with current European plans pushed to Greece it will.

The problem is that EU is being pressured from many sides while struggling to have is head above water in the World Market.
Greece REALLY needs time to regrow. The thing is, that time may as well put in cause the other members economy, consequently the EU stability.

But we may as well never know...

[Deleted]

Lets also not forget the massive protests that have effected greece the last few years (oil crisis for example) that all more or less destroyed the the engine of the greek economy.

What? You mean that Oil is cheap as hell?

[hellhamster]

The only reason why Greece has worsened during the last few years is because the governments haven't really done much in structural reforms.

Lets also not forget the massive protests that have effected greece the last few years (oil crisis for example) that all more or less destroyed the the engine of the greek economy.

The biggest blame lies with the current Greek government and anybody saying otherwise is wilfully ignorant. The banking system is a fundimiatal part of almost every countries economy and the fact that their is a run going on right now in Greece just shows the suicidal tendencies of the Greek government. You do not call out a referendum (which everybody sees as either staying or leaving the EU), close the bloody banks for a week, limit the bloody withdraws during the week and then wonder why the economy is getting ruined.

How many bank runs have their been since the current government got elected? Every single time it chips away at the suitability of the financial system when you have the country as a whole withdrawing every single penny they have.

This is all on Greece, the EU isn't just making a economical decision is also has to make a political decision. Its better to let Greek default then to actually forgive their debt for the EU because if they did pardon some of the debt it would really make set a bad example the next time some country decides to borrow so they can live like kings.

You want to fix the Greek economy? It's kind of easy actually. Reduce government spending to normal levels, increase revenue to normal levels (and please don't mention that tax avoidance is needed) and rebalance the economy.

Kind of a shame I don't get a Nobel prize or at least a column in a newspaper for this because, most of these anti austerity economist look at Greece at the wrong angle. They compare pre crisis to now which is fundamentally flawed.

You don't compare the way of living of somebody that managed to borrow enough money so he could buy a castle and live like a king to the same guy few years later that lost his castle because he borrowed to much money.

Again, no one said austerity isn't needed, even Syriza agrees that structural reforms need to be made to repay the debt (and every media saying the opposite is lying), however the agreed upon reforms have killed this country to the point the debt to GDP has reached insane heights.

Again, we need reforms, just good reforms that don't kill our only industries that are left while demanding a 2% surplus when the economy is completely shrunk. You don't need to be a Nobel prize winner to understand that.

[Deleted]

Again, we need reforms, just good reforms that don't kill our only industries that are left while demanding a 2% surplus when the economy is completely shrunk. You don't need to be a Nobel prize winner to understand that.

The reforms didn't kill your industries.

Tourism and shipping companys are booming for example I read through all the crisis.

If you have such a huge public sector it's clear that this will shrink but its not industry per se.
Provide evidence for industries that were ruined by the bad reforms.

[hellhamster]

The reforms didn't kill your industries.

Tourism and shipping companys are booming for example I read through all the crisis.

If you have such a huge public sector it's clear that this will shrink but its not industry per se.
Provide evidence for industries that were ruined by the bad reforms.

Read the newest proposal, the one we are supposedly implementing if YES wins.
Read how many businesses from every industry imaginable have closed down. We are talking hundreds of thousands here.

[Deleted]

Read the newest proposal, the one we are supposedly implementing if YES wins.
Read how many businesses from every industry imaginable have closed down. We are talking hundreds of thousands here.

They were mostly kept afloat artificially by the expansion of the public sector.

There was no scenario in which you got to keep that.

[hellhamster]

They were mostly kept afloat artificially by the expansion of the public sector.

There was no scenario in which you got to keep that.

What, literally what, does the public sector have to do with the private sector?

[Hooked]

Well at least Greece wont have to worry about the migrant boats anymore, they will be turning their own boats around now.

[Cyberowl]

What, literally what, does the public sector have to do with the private sector?

Reduction/Loss of wages leads to less money that can be spend in private sector.

[ati87]

What? You mean that Oil is cheap as hell?

Google oil crisis greece.

Like a year before the financial crisis in Greece you had truck drivers protesting the fact that their occupation wasn't a "protected" job anymore. Result was lack of fule in Greece and one of the many protest to protect this inefficient system of brought the country to ruins.

The biggest enemy of the Greek people are the Greek people, they have faught to the tooth and nail to prevent any reform. In some ways Greece had gone beyond the us when it comes down to working for special interest

[SirRobin]

No, it didn't.

It rather obviously did.

Its sad pensioners have to pay, but that is the problem of letting them retire at 50.
The thing really is that Greece needs to internally devalue - This is harsh.
But it is going to happen.

If it was just the pensioners then fine. If it was just the military, then fine. Just the VAT, then fine. But its not and that's just the tip of their debt iceberg. Without growth all it will be doing is making Greece even poorer so it will have to cut even more. Cannibalize itself even more.

Greece has spend 50% of its existence in default. How do you consider that working?
Its like describing your car as working when the engine stalls every half hour.

How do I consider that working? Greece has been a nation since, when, the 1830's? Half of it in default, true, but still chugging along. The drachma was replaced with the euro in, when, 2001? Not even two decades later and the country is on the brink of complete economic collapse. I would honestly not be surprised if Greece were to shortly experience a military coups.

Using your own analogy, Greece is certainly not a sports car. Probably more like a yugo at best. Probably got a bad cylinder too. But like my wife's van, it doesn't run well but it still starts every time you turn the key in the ignition. It still gets her where she needs to go. Can't go much passed 30mph but its still running.

Keeping the euro is like letting someone else decide how much gas your yugo's engine gets. Keeping the troika is like letting someone else drive, you're stuck in the passenger seat, and they are taking your ass to the vet to get neutered.

Even the IMF believes Greece's debt is not sustainable. And since I do not see writing off Greece's debts as being politically acceptable to the Germans? Then we are back to where I said we were in the first place. Either Greece dies a slow economic death under the troika or a quick one if they tell the troika to shove off.

[Deleted]

What scenario was there in which greece had the choice to not "cannibalize itself"?

[SirRobin]

Google oil crisis greece.

Like a year before the financial crisis in Greece you had truck drivers protesting the fact that their occupation wasn't a "protected" job anymore. Result was lack of fule in Greece and one of the many protest to protect this inefficient system of brought the country to ruins.

The biggest enemy of the Greek people are the Greek people, they have faught to the tooth and nail to prevent any reform. In some ways Greece had gone beyond the us when it comes down to working for special interest

If Greece was a wealthier country then rampant "special interests" could be sustainable. Since the Greek's currency is not the lingua franca of the world, like the dollar, and they are poor? Well, special interests just punch more holes in an already very leaky boat.

Actually the Greek's don't have a currency at all anymore since they use the euro. So their options are even more limited.

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What scenario was there in which greece had the choice to not "cannibalize itself"?

The same as before, a weak currency and high inflation. Highlighted with regular defaults and the occasional coups.

[Deleted]

It rather obviously did.

Yeah, okay, i define working as not in default 50% of the time.

If it was just the pensioners then fine. If it was just the military, then fine. Just the VAT, then fine. But its not and that's just the tip of their debt iceberg.

I don't think you get it, Everything needs cuts.
You have a bloated military, that you cant afford, you spend disproportionally on your old, and you pay your civil service 'too much' - All of this needs to go.
Also, you have a shit tax system and enforcement, that really needs to go.

Without growth all it will be doing is making Greece even poorer so it will have to cut even more. Cannibalize itself even more.

This is tragically true - However, You wont ever be growing unless you fix those aforementioned things.
.

Even the IMF believes Greece's debt is not sustainable.

Greek debt is unsustainable - but what is hard for you to understand, and the greek leaders it seems, is that this does not matter - Forgiving your debt is essentially giving you money because you wasted yours, it is politically untenable - Fix the stupid shit in your country, and wait untill the entire crisis blows over, then one starts asking for this, but to demand it during the crisis? It is just not going to happen, no matter how many Greeks leave, kill themselves, or are unemployed

And since I do not see writing off Greece's debts as being politically acceptable to the Germans? Then we are back to where I said we were in the first place. Either Greece dies a slow economic death under the troika or a quick one if they tell the troika to shove off.

Pretty much yeah.