Are they sure ? Another nerf ?

[Deleted]

Who plays dps shamans these days?! Clearly dps shamans and shadow priests need nerfs. Kappa.

The thing is that SP can abuse from multiple target, put dot on all target and spam execute. Dps shamans can't.

[Flurryfang]

so..... Where is the nerf?? I really only see a 3% tweak on a tier bonus and that is all??? This is like some1 crying out for blizzards head, because they did a 1.2% nerf xD Can someone plz tell me why the tweaking of a tier set is such a big deal?

[Canibehealz]

The thing is that SP can abuse from multiple target, put dot on all target and spam execute. Dps shamans can't.

Oh I didn't know that they can spam their execute just by multidotting Kappa

And whats this about dps shamans don't benefit from multidotting...?

Sometimes I wonder, I truly do.

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Can someone plz tell me why the tweaking of a tier set is such a big deal?

It isn't. The sky isn't falling, people just like to think it is.

[wordup]

so..... Where is the nerf?? I really only see a 3% tweak on a tier bonus and that is all??? This is like some1 crying out for blizzards head, because they did a 1.2% nerf xD Can someone plz tell me why the tweaking of a tier set is such a big deal?

The outcry is coming from the fact that Enhancement is currently PROJECTED to do extremely bad damage compared to other classes come 6.2; so people aren't happy that it's a nerf to an already underperforming spec.

[Flurryfang]

The outcry is coming from the fact that Enhancement is currently PROJECTED to do extremely bad damage compared to other classes come 6.2; so people aren't happy that it's a nerf to an already underperforming spec.

Well should people then not cry out for a buff to the class, instead of losing their head about a tweak to a tier set. It would be very bad for the class if your dps took an unnatural jump just becaus you have a tier bonus.

[Deleted]

Oh I didn't know that they can spam their execute just by multidotting Kappa

And whats this about dps shamans don't benefit from multidotting...?

Sometimes I wonder, I truly do.

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It isn't. The sky isn't falling, people just like to think it is.

Sham don't benefit that much from multidotting, while SP just gain sooo much dps. And by multiple target, I mean litle adds that die fast. Just look at Manoroth for example.

[Deleted]

If a Class is overrepresented (like Shamans) then I think it is a good idea to not keep them as strong so minmax players move elsewhere and add variety

So just take a look at mythic raiding:
Number of logs in last 2 weeks for all dps specs per class:

Hunter 56k

Warrior 24k (+13k tanks) = 37k

Enh Shaman 10k
Elemental 15k (+19k resto) = 44k

Shadow 19.5k (+31k healer) = 52k

DK 21k (+19k tanks) = 40k

Feral 10k (+10k tanks)
Balance 29k (+20k healer) = 69k

Rogues 27k

Retri Pala 20k (+ 10k tanks + 23k healer) = 53k

Mages 42k

Warlock 36k

Monk 8k (+21k tanks + 11k healer) = 40k

It's not like dps shamans are overrepresented at all. We actually see hunters, locks and mages overrepresented, as they are the strongest dps specs/classes. And of course hybrids have higher overall representation. But shamans arent that high too.

[Canibehealz]

Sham don't benefit that much from multidotting, while SP just gain sooo much dps. And by multiple target, I mean litle adds that die fast. Just look at Manoroth for example.

Priests only gain "sooo much dps" on multidotting when the targets live long enough for dots to tick and apparitions to travel, not little adds that die fast. And they're bound to a talent choice to take advantage of that. Shamans of both dps specs gain damage off of multidotting under the same conditions, the only difference is that SWP is a shorter duration DoT. Stop grasping at straws. Their entire 100 talent is designed around that and they've received changes to DP to compensate crit scaling in HFC.

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Well should people then not cry out for a buff to the class, instead of losing their head about a tweak to a tier set. It would be very bad for the class if your dps took an unnatural jump just becaus you have a tier bonus.

This is the point, yes. They should fix the core issues with the class/spec instead of just bandaiding it having a reliance on tier.

[Spl4sh3r]

I don't get why people think its a nerf when its not even released on live yet. The set isn't out yet so it can't be a nerf. Once something is released and an effect is reduced then its a nerf, but before its out it's not even out yet so there is no such thing as buffs or nerfs, unless its a change to already existing items/spells. You are speaking of a set that comes with patch, hence not released yet and therefore doesn't exist to nerf or buff outside a test server.

[Deleted]

Priests only gain "sooo much dps" on multidotting when the targets live long enough for dots to tick and apparitions to travel, not little adds that die fast. And they're bound to a talent choice to take advantage of that. Shamans of both dps specs gain damage off of multidotting under the same conditions, the only difference is that SWP is a shorter duration DoT. Stop grasping at straws. Their entire 100 talent is designed around that and they've received changes to DP to compensate crit scaling in HFC.

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This is the point, yes. They should fix the core issues with the class/spec instead of just bandaiding it having a reliance on tier.

Or class trinket? Or what?

They didn't balance us in 6.1, it's looking worse than ever before. It's always the same: when we have a strong set bonus, it gets nerfed to ground. Same for class trinket. Yet other classes keep their op set bonus.

Of course after some reiteration, i think the nerf was total bullshit. The set bonus is either still too strong because it's still bugged or very weak if they fix the bug.

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I don't get why people think its a nerf when its not even released on live yet. The set isn't out yet so it can't be a nerf. Once something is released and an effect is reduced then its a nerf, but before its out it's not even out yet so there is no such thing as buffs or nerfs, unless its a change to already existing items/spells. You are speaking of a set that comes with patch, hence not released yet and therefore doesn't exist to nerf or buff outside a test server.

Yet we have a lot of simulations, showing enhancers 30-35% behind many melees and 50% behind arcane mages. Easily 15% behind midpack dps like ferals.

That's insane right now. Progression starts Wednesday and we are still bad, but it will get much worse after everyones geared up and got their op class trinkets or strength trinkets and so on. It's even a lot of people arguing that arcane mages are a lot more benefitting from those new legendary quest rings.

[wordup]

Or class trinket? Or what?

They didn't balance us in 6.1, it's looking worse than ever before. It's always the same: when we have a strong set bonus, it gets nerfed to ground. Same for class trinket. Yet other classes keep their op set bonus.

Of course after some reiteration, i think the nerf was total bullshit. The set bonus is either still too strong because it's still bugged or very weak if they fix the bug.

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Yet we have a lot of simulations, showing enhancers 30-35% behind many melees and 50% behind arcane mages. Easily 15% behind midpack dps like ferals.

That's insane right now. Progression starts Wednesday and we are still bad, but it will get much worse after everyones geared up and got their op class trinkets or strength trinkets and so on. It's even a lot of people arguing that arcane mages are a lot more benefitting from those new legendary quest rings.

They have been informed multiple times and are well aware of the extra damage received from stacks present vs. stacks consumed, and have opted to just reduce the damage bonus instead of removing that. This is not privvy information we have held from devs while testing.

The simple fact of the matter is, if we are propped up by a set bonus then the real issues that are holding Enhancement back and have been since WoD launched and we left our nice spot in MoP are not going to be seen, looked at, addressed or anything.

[Deleted]

They have been informed multiple times and are well aware of the extra damage received from stacks present vs. stacks consumed, and have opted to just reduce the damage bonus instead of removing that. This is not privvy information we have held from devs while testing.

The simple fact of the matter is, if we are propped up by a set bonus then the real issues that are holding Enhancement back and have been since WoD launched and we left our nice spot in MoP are not going to be seen, looked at, addressed or anything.

But honestly, right now, i take EVERYTHING. I just see them buffing SS and LL by 20%, making up 4 out of those 20-30% gap. We'd need a massive buff currently and if we were unholy dk, i would see that strength bonus adjusted.

For us, it's more complicated.

Shock damage buffs would affect elemental too and especially affect EF.
SS and LL are just minor parts of our dps. In current sims, SS(+WS) and LL are 9.5 and 9.8% of our dps. So buffing those ability by another 20% would be only a 4% dps buff. That's not even close to what we need.

LB also affects elemental and LB is already a hard hitter in 6.2. I don't see them buffing LB any further.

Searing Totem? Yeah, fucking boring, but possible. And yet, very stupid. And ST is only 3% of our overall damage.

Buff windfury? Why not. Our class trinket is already really weak. But again, windfury is pretty weak, only 7% of our overall damage.

In the end, they would have to buff a lot of abilites. I'd love to get a massive buff to Ascendance back. It's really weak right now. Not using Ascendance at all on ST is just a minor dps loss (3.3%).

It would've been much easier to give us overpowered set bonuses and class trinkets and this would've fixed say 50% of the gap. For now, our class trinket is very weak and our set bonus still pretty good. Man, they could've said by now what numbers tuning they plan. There's some raid testing tomorrow so we could've tested them tomorrow.

[wordup]

Snip

The loss from yesterday to today in terms of the set bonus, from my re-simming of the talent scales, is [correction here: between 750-2k DPS depending on talent setups (much worse than I was expecting)].

The Class trinket is also our best ST option (yes, useless in AoE, but it's not completely the worst thing ever, we will be using it in some circumstances).

I am expecting trinket passes (there is no way that a trinket providing 20-30% of Str users DPS is going live like that) and further retuning after a week or so of heroic/mythic data, much like Highmaul. I may be wrong, maybe I'm being overly hopeful, but if that's the case then there is no hope and complaining won't change that because they flat out aren't listening, which I don't fully believe. Yet.

[Deleted]

I don't get why people think its a nerf when its not even released on live yet. The set isn't out yet so it can't be a nerf. Once something is released and an effect is reduced then its a nerf, but before its out it's not even out yet so there is no such thing as buffs or nerfs, unless its a change to already existing items/spells. You are speaking of a set that comes with patch, hence not released yet and therefore doesn't exist to nerf or buff outside a test server.

10/10 flawless troll logic.

[Deleted]

The loss from yesterday to today in terms of the set bonus, from my re-simming of the talent scales, is [correction here: between 750-2k DPS depending on talent setups (much worse than I was expecting)].

The Class trinket is also our best ST option (yes, useless in AoE, but it's not completely the worst thing ever, we will be using it in some circumstances).

I am expecting trinket passes (there is no way that a trinket providing 20-30% of Str users DPS is going live like that) and further retuning after a week or so of heroic/mythic data, much like Highmaul. I may be wrong, maybe I'm being overly hopeful, but if that's the case then there is no hope and complaining won't change that because they flat out aren't listening, which I don't fully believe. Yet.

Because they did so in 6.0 and 6.1?

Honestly, they didn't fix us back then. They won't do it again if we stay calm again. There are some major concern that aren't easy to fix (like our bad item scaling) and they didnt do so in 6.2 so far. The real problem is that we are sooo far behind.

We have a history of going much too weak out of EVERY raidtesting. Just look at what happened after 5.2, 5.4, 6.0 and 6.1. And it's about to happen once again in 6.2.

In 5.2, we were the weakest dps in ToT. So we got a 13% dps buff in 5.3. But shortly before 5.2, there was a legendary statement of Ghostcrawler("We are afraid, windwalker and enhance are too high"). In 5.4 the same, resulting in need of a 7% buff in the week after the patch went live. In 6.0, we got a lot of small buffs - all putting us closer to the rest, but still bottom. There was a hotfix for warriors who did a little (5%) less damage than we did - and they gained overall 20% dps.

About trinkets: Remember 5.2 ToT? One trinket that was totally overpowered and they didnt fix it until 5.4.

[wordup]

Because they did so in 6.0 and 6.1?

Honestly, they didn't fix us back then. They won't do it again if we stay calm again. There are some major concern that aren't easy to fix (like our bad item scaling) and they didnt do so in 6.2 so far. The real problem is that we are sooo far behind.

We have a history of going much too weak out of EVERY raidtesting. Just look at what happened after 5.2, 5.4, 6.0 and 6.1. And it's about to happen once again in 6.2.

In 5.2, we were the weakest dps in ToT. So we got a 13% dps buff in 5.3. But shortly before 5.2, there was a legendary statement of Ghostcrawler("We are afraid, windwalker and enhance are too high"). In 5.4 the same, resulting in need of a 7% buff in the week after the patch went live. In 6.0, we got a lot of small buffs - all putting us closer to the rest, but still bottom. There was a hotfix for warriors who did a little (5%) less damage than we did - and they gained overall 20% dps.

About trinkets: Remember 5.2 ToT? One trinket that was totally overpowered and they didnt fix it until 5.4.

Actually, I'm afraid to say in this you're wrong. In ToT we were pretty damn good, our scaling with RPPM at the time was -INSANE- but people are very quick to forget that. In Siege, we were pretty good, viable in raids, people just didn't have one in every comp without question; but Mists of Pandaria (aside from the arguably rocky first tier of balance) had Enhancement in a relatively good place (we also had -amazing- offhealing utility in ToT and good offhealing in SoO).

Very often in MoP when things were way off, something was brought up (SS buffs in particular were common) in testing, WoD has been a different beast, I give you, they are very afraid to give anything out before actual release which is silly, but yeah.

On the RoRo/UVLS, they were left in simply because rebalancing the classes post-nerf on those trinkets was way too much of an undertaking in the middle of an expansion (so they say) so they chose the easy way out. I'm not saying I'm agreeing with it, but they definitely acknowledged it. Feral/pre-Mastery rework WW literally required RoRo to be anywhere near viable, let alone competitive, and UVLS kept Demo from circling the drain; it's not the 2-3% increase like this set bonus, that was literally 20-30% increases on a rock bottom class. The HFC trinkets are increases on classes that without them, would still be performing great, different situation.

[Murderdoll]

If a Class is overrepresented (like Shamans) then I think it is a good idea to not keep them as strong so minmax players move elsewhere and add variety

Over represented? The only thing we're over represented on is the do not bring list.

I don't get why people think its a nerf when its not even released on live yet. The set isn't out yet so it can't be a nerf. Once something is released and an effect is reduced then its a nerf, but before its out it's not even out yet so there is no such thing as buffs or nerfs, unless its a change to already existing items/spells. You are speaking of a set that comes with patch, hence not released yet and therefore doesn't exist to nerf or buff outside a test server.

This is why shit gets released in a crappy format. People who play the wait and see game. "It's just ptr don't worry yet".

Patch is live in 2 days. Two.

We are going live sitting very comfortably at the bottom unless they add padding to every single fight.

[Deleted]

Actually, I'm afraid to say in this you're wrong. In ToT we were pretty damn good, our scaling with RPPM at the time was -INSANE- but people are very quick to forget that. In Siege, we were pretty good, viable in raids, people just didn't have one in every comp without question; but Mists of Pandaria (aside from the arguably rocky first tier of balance) had Enhancement in a relatively good place (we also had -amazing- offhealing utility in ToT and good offhealing in SoO).

No you're wrong. In 5.2, we were bad. In 5.3, we got a 13% dps buff - that + very high rppm scaling put us in a good position. But in 5.2, without the buff, we were straight out bottom.

I know that because on raid bots, we were last place in 5.2. In 5.3, we were in a very good position, especially single target dps wise. But it was both - good rppm scaling and that 13% dps buff in 5.3. MAybe people forget how bad we were in 5.2.

It was like i said - we got very very weak out of raid testing and only a massive buff could fix us.

Now it's quite the opposite. We are very weak item scaling wise. Haste is a very weak attuned stat. Multistrike and mastery are weak for single target dps. Crit is a bad joke, even worse than versatility.

The problem is: when we gain 10% dps, most others gain 12% dps and some gain 14%. this leads to problems in highend gear.

I've lost a lot of trust into their balancing team. Just take a look what they did to lava burst in all their testing. And now take a look what happened to lava burst since 6.0. Look at how mages and warriors got 25-30% buffs, elemental also got 30% dps buff to be middle of the pack. Enhancement was in the same position single target dps wise, but in beta testing, they nerfed enhancers shortly before 6.0 by 15-20%, in return they got only minor buffs in 6.0 and more importantly, a lot other speccs got big or very big buffs.

We all suspect it was because of fire nova. But honestly, i don't want to be the class taht completely relies on fire nova to be mediocre and very bad without fire nova. If balancing single target meant a nerf to fire nova, i'd be okay.

Remember the 6.0 statement? "Everyone should deal about the same single target dps and excel at certain fights because of different aoe mechanics".

Instead, in 6.1, we were just up to 20% behind on pure single target dps. And now it's even up to over 30%. Some of it is just due to overpowered strength trinkets. But in the end, i don't want to see 6.1 reloaded.

If 6.2 would be balanced like 6.1, i'll quit. I only stayed because i hoped for some massive balancing fix in 6.2 - which obviously won't happen. We'll get the usual small buffs to make us bottom, but not that far behind. And even for this to happen, we'd need at least a 10% buff. 20% to make us midpack again.

In the end, our problem is: in a 20m myth environment, melee raid spots are very limited and we're fighting for those raid spots. Warriors, rets, dks, rogues, monks have insane aoe/cleave mechanics too (feral somewhat low), partially with much more burst and cleave dps than we have. Especially because they get strong cleave trinkets (for the moment even totally op strength cleave trinkets).

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Why are you making arbitrary restrictions about what to look at [only Mythic Raiding and only DPS Specs]

Because myth raids are where balancing actually matters. If it would be really like you say, dps shamans are very high represented in normal mode and heroic mode, but a lot less represented in myth raiding, it only suggests that balancing is broken. What we can really see, just compare dps shamans to mage numbers. In normal/heroic, they are roughly the same, in mythic, mage is a lot higher represented.

[stomination]

This is the best I could do

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/18194510287#1


It will of course go to deaf ears.

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Actually, I'm afraid to say in this you're wrong. In ToT we were pretty damn good, our scaling with RPPM at the time was -INSANE- but people are very quick to forget that. In Siege, we were pretty good, viable in raids, people just didn't have one in every comp without question; but Mists of Pandaria (aside from the arguably rocky first tier of balance) had Enhancement in a relatively good place (we also had -amazing- offhealing utility in ToT and good offhealing in SoO).

Very often in MoP when things were way off, something was brought up (SS buffs in particular were common) in testing, WoD has been a different beast, I give you, they are very afraid to give anything out before actual release which is silly, but yeah.

On the RoRo/UVLS, they were left in simply because rebalancing the classes post-nerf on those trinkets was way too much of an undertaking in the middle of an expansion (so they say) so they chose the easy way out. I'm not saying I'm agreeing with it, but they definitely acknowledged it. Feral/pre-Mastery rework WW literally required RoRo to be anywhere near viable, let alone competitive, and UVLS kept Demo from circling the drain; it's not the 2-3% increase like this set bonus, that was literally 20-30% increases on a rock bottom class. The HFC trinkets are increases on classes that without them, would still be performing great, different situation.

Yet with all that goodness ppl would still stack other melee since they still brought better utility.

[Deleted]

The wording is somewhat stupid, i think your thread title shouldn't be that hateful.

In the end, everyone agrees on those issues. Yet they simply ignore most of that.

If they balanced 6.0 according to simcraft (with some adjustments), we would have seen a lot less class tuning in 6.0. It's pretty obvious that their tools are either very bad or they intentionally balance this bad.