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  1. #1

    [Balance] Hellfire Citadel encounter discussion

    Haven't seen a thread for this and I think it could be helpful to discuss the HFC encounters with fellow boomkins to maximize performance.

    Tonight before realm shutdown we cleared up to Heroic Gorefiend. Got him to around 30% or so.

    Anyways, for Hellfire Assault (first 'boss') I attempted BoP with Incarn but didn't really find it too be very good compared to Euro which our other boomy used. Pretty straight forward fight and very easy.

    Fel Reaver - was also pretty straight forward, used Euro and Incarn. Used Feline Swiftness as well and I think is overall better than Displacer Beast for it.

    Kromok - I used the same setup, hands wern't really up for long in our kill because our DPS melted them so I barely got any Starfall hits. Feline swiftness is also probably more suited for Kromok rather than Displacer Beast.

    High Council - Used Euro rather than BoP, which I think worked out well, despite being a council fight. Although if other boomy's found BoP to preform better than Euro feel free to comment why. Displacer Beast has it's moment in this fight to run out the runes when you drop them off at the outer edge of the room.

    Kilrogg Dreadeye - Same setup, and I used Displacer Beast to run out the dagger / axe ability which drops the slimes that fixate towards the boss. Straight forward.

    Obviously heroic is pretty much a joke for most guilds in mythic BRF gear, but I think it's worth discussing any tips or advice for the encounters on Heroic so far, at least until Mythic is released and things get more interesting. Hope to hear from other boomkins about their suggestions on the fights.

  2. #2
    Honestly, it's going to be a Incarnation/Euphoria instance for every boss. Feline swiftness can be useful but I have a personal preference for Displacer beast as an "Oh F***" button. BoP is not really worth using. Stellar flare is too hard to use properly to make it better.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by brandon132 View Post
    Honestly, it's going to be a Incarnation/Euphoria instance for every boss. Feline swiftness can be useful but I have a personal preference for Displacer beast as an "Oh F***" button. BoP is not really worth using. Stellar flare is too hard to use properly to make it better.
    Pretty much this. Only did 11/13 yesterday but the usual setup worked well on all fights. That may change with Mythic, but I don't expect that Displacer and Euph/Inc will ever not be good. Some of the turret bosses could warrant some SotF use potentially, but it'll probably end up being roughly the same as Inc again, with and Berserk & Pot phases with Inc will come out on top.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Alame's Avatar
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    I don't understand why people keep thinking new bosses will suddenly make BoP/Flare the go-to talent.

    Especially BoP. Seems like every time there's a council fight people get excited about BoP, the reality is that's just not the case. The only real advantage bop provides in a council fight is reducing the number of GCDs you spend refreshing dots. Even then you're only really extending the dots on your primary target so you're saving 3-4 GCDs per cycle.

    Stellar flare might be competitive for HHC at higher haste levels, but then you're itemizing away from starfall on a fight that's right in its wheelhouse.

    Incarn/Euph is going to be the go-to for pretty much every fight. Especially once you drop t17 2pc you're really going to want the cast time reduction from euph.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Alame View Post
    I don't understand why people keep thinking new bosses will suddenly make BoP/Flare the go-to talent.

    Especially BoP. Seems like every time there's a council fight people get excited about BoP, the reality is that's just not the case. The only real advantage bop provides in a council fight is reducing the number of GCDs you spend refreshing dots. Even then you're only really extending the dots on your primary target so you're saving 3-4 GCDs per cycle.

    Stellar flare might be competitive for HHC at higher haste levels, but then you're itemizing away from starfall on a fight that's right in its wheelhouse.

    Incarn/Euph is going to be the go-to for pretty much every fight. Especially once you drop t17 2pc you're really going to want the cast time reduction from euph.
    Ok I am not really sure why people continue to think this because it is so completely wrong its astounding. Now I have not done the sim for 6.2 gear however I do not think that the difference would change very much due to the fact that we were not changed much at all for 6.2. That being said the sim between BoP and Euphoria on single target was somewhere around 2-5% in favor of Euphoria on single target fights. So yes on a single target fight euphoria will be better.

    The HUGE glaring issue that I am not sure why people are not getting is euphoria is only good when you are using Starsurges because that is the only thing that makes that talent yield a dps gain. So on any fight where you are using a large % of your charges on starfall you are getting ZERO benefit from Euphoria. On fights like the council where literally you are using 70-100% of your charges on starfall you are getting a very small amount of dps from Euphoria if any. Getting 10% dot damage on 6 dots for an entire fight is going to be way more damage than you just getting to use a couple buffs from the very few SS empowerments you gain in a council fight.

    Anytime there are 2+ targets Starfall is a DPS gain over SS and when you have 3 constant cleave targets BoP will Yield much better results.

    Remember that the value of Euphoria goes down with every charge you use on Starfall as the sims that you are so used to seeing expect you to be using SS for every single one.

    The caveat to this is if you are using the Heroic+ Arch trinket which basically makes SS cast SF every time as well and then yes I could see you using Euphoria then. However if you think that Euphoria is better than BoP on a Multi Target fight without that Trinket then you are not actually thinking about the way that Euphoria adds damage to your character.

  6. #6
    People also seem to neglect the fact that BoP also increases the damage your dots do.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by brandon132 View Post
    Stellar flare is too hard to use properly to make it better.
    So true. I could see stellar flare really shining on a council fight if it were balanced better so it would actually be worth using enough to get a little practice with it, but currently it's enough of a shock to switch to the slower eclipse bar without needing to throw another dot into the mix as well.

  8. #8
    Ok I wanted to go check my numbers on Simcraft quickly so that I could substantiate this thought process.

    The Sim for my Character Jadawin on Burning Blade 695 Balance Druid

    Inc/Eup-46462
    Inc/BoP-44091

    5.3% Increase on single target for using Euphoria. Which is a bit higher than I initially thought but does not change the logic.

    If you just think about this at its purest base. If you used all of your charges on SF for an entire fight taking Euphoria would be like basically not even using a level 100 Talent because you would never give yourself the Haste benefit because its not a passive increase it only happens when you cast SS. Thus the value of Euphoria is "x" whatever that may be and whatever the % of your charges you use on SS that is the % you are actually getting from the talent.

    Now I dont know the exact math behind it but I would be willing to bet that BoP gets better than Euphoria VERY quickly when you start using more SF's than SS's since the bonus from BoP is not dependent on other abilities to work to its fullest.

    If someone has some math or logic to discount this please let me know because I would like to be playing the most effective setup for fights and I just dont see the logic or gain from using Euphoria in multi target fights.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire Alame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guzrud View Post
    Ok I am not really sure why people continue to think this because it is so completely wrong its astounding. Now I have not done the sim for 6.2 gear however I do not think that the difference would change very much due to the fact that we were not changed much at all for 6.2. That being said the sim between BoP and Euphoria on single target was somewhere around 2-5% in favor of Euphoria on single target fights. So yes on a single target fight euphoria will be better.

    The HUGE glaring issue that I am not sure why people are not getting is euphoria is only good when you are using Starsurges because that is the only thing that makes that talent yield a dps gain. So on any fight where you are using a large % of your charges on starfall you are getting ZERO benefit from Euphoria. On fights like the council where literally you are using 70-100% of your charges on starfall you are getting a very small amount of dps from Euphoria if any. Getting 10% dot damage on 6 dots for an entire fight is going to be way more damage than you just getting to use a couple buffs from the very few SS empowerments you gain in a council fight.

    Anytime there are 2+ targets Starfall is a DPS gain over SS and when you have 3 constant cleave targets BoP will Yield much better results.

    Remember that the value of Euphoria goes down with every charge you use on Starfall as the sims that you are so used to seeing expect you to be using SS for every single one.

    The caveat to this is if you are using the Heroic+ Arch trinket which basically makes SS cast SF every time as well and then yes I could see you using Euphoria then. However if you think that Euphoria is better than BoP on a Multi Target fight without that Trinket then you are not actually thinking about the way that Euphoria adds damage to your character.
    You seem to be forgetting Seed of Creation. BoP wasn't better than Euphoria on cleave fights in BRF (unless you count spear-padding on Darmac) and it's not going to magically become better when our class trinket makes euphoria better

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Alame View Post
    You seem to be forgetting Seed of Creation. BoP wasn't better than Euphoria on cleave fights in BRF (unless you count spear-padding on Darmac) and it's not going to magically become better when our class trinket makes euphoria better
    I suppose you just didnt actually read the last part where it says the Caveat about the arch Trinket??? Because no I didn't forget about that trinket at all.

    It quite clearly states that without that trinket in a multi target fight that BoP is going to be better Euphoria.

    I would love to see some good solid math or logic that can show that when you are using a large quantity of charges on SF and not actually getting any benefit from Euphoria at all on those charges how that translates into a dps gain over BoP when it is already very close in terms of dps because Honestly I really just dont see it at all.

  11. #11
    Blah blah blah, all these numbers dont be shit, go out and show me that BoP is better.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Alame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guzrud View Post
    I suppose you just didnt actually read the last part where it says the Caveat about the arch Trinket??? Because no I didn't forget about that trinket at all.

    It quite clearly states that without that trinket in a multi target fight that BoP is going to be better Euphoria.

    I would love to see some good solid math or logic that can show that when you are using a large quantity of charges on SF and not actually getting any benefit from Euphoria at all on those charges how that translates into a dps gain over BoP when it is already very close in terms of dps because Honestly I really just dont see it at all.
    You can't have a discussion about talents for a given tier and completely discount the BiS trinket for that tier. That's just plain ridiculous. When your caveat is the majority of scenarios it ceases to be the caveat and becomes the rule.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Used Inc/Euph on Council and our other boomer went with Inc/BoP.
    Overall Inc/Euph performed better. Pushed 71k yesterday

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Are we ignoring the fact that BoP was better on maidens? Which had 3 targets aswell?

  15. #15
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    Anyone experimented with the stats? Whats the stats PRIO and whats the bis gear in HFC?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kamenkr View Post
    Anyone experimented with the stats? Whats the stats PRIO and whats the bis gear in HFC?
    That's what I was thinking....but apparently everyone despises it, lol. I'm not a fan of it but if it's optimal; I'll use it.

    Also, fuck the Eye of Anzu mechanic on Shadow-Lord.

  17. #17
    Please don't forget that your overall cleave DPS pad isn't important. If you're strictly starfalling on a council fight especially when the burn phase (sub 20%) is crucial then you are just padding. Euphoria lets us burst down in the burn phase with our cooldowns. If you're going for rankings, go ahead and play BoP and you'll probably rank better until you get SoC. If you're trying to kill the fight and not be a pad lord then pick the talent that the fight warrants. Maidens you should have been using Euphoria because of a) if you are on boats and b) the burn phase is the only hard phase. Council is a very similar fight. Stop being padlords of draenor

  18. #18
    I love how every one of these posts turns into an argument some how..

    Hellfire Assault - Inc/Euph
    Iron Reaver - Inc/Euph
    Kormrok - Inc/Euph
    Hellfire Council - Inc/BoP
    Kilrogg Deadeye - Inc/Euph
    Gorefiend - Inc/Euph
    Shadow-Lord Iskar - Inc/Euph
    Socrethar the Eternal - Inc/Euph

    *Side notes*

    Wish I would have just used Euph on Council instead of BoP, though we 1 shot it so I couldnt change talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neglesh View Post
    Also, fuck the Eye of Anzu mechanic on Shadow-Lord.
    The add on Iskar Assist makes that fight a joke.
    Last edited by Bulba; 2015-06-25 at 03:14 PM.
    Bulbasaur of Sargeras
    <Design> 13/13 Mythic HFC

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deets View Post
    Used Inc/Euph on Council and our other boomer went with Inc/BoP.
    Overall Inc/Euph performed better. Pushed 71k yesterday
    Did you sf multi dot until burn? What's your ilvl?

  20. #20
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Guzrud View Post
    The HUGE glaring issue that I am not sure why people are not getting is euphoria is only good when you are using Starsurges because that is the only thing that makes that talent yield a dps gain. So on any fight where you are using a large % of your charges on starfall you are getting ZERO benefit from Euphoria. On fights like the council where literally you are using 70-100% of your charges on starfall you are getting a very small amount of dps from Euphoria if any. Getting 10% dot damage on 6 dots for an entire fight is going to be way more damage than you just getting to use a couple buffs from the very few SS empowerments you gain in a council fight.
    Thats actually wrong. I used to think the same way (cause logic right?), but the slower/faster moving eclipse bar impacts the dps a lot in fact.
    I tried playing BoP on multiple fights in BRF and Highmaul during progress and almost all the time i did more dps with euphoria even on fights with barely any starsurge usage at all. So why is that? the only logical explanation to me is the eclipse affecting our dps quite a lot.

    Im not a big theorycrafter at all, but in my opinion its nearly impossible to get any accurate sims about the difference of BoP/euphoria (except for patchwerk fights). Let me give u a quick example:

    Imagine a boss like darmac, if u play BoP and u happen to enter lunar or solar phase right when adds spawn u wont be able to get both of ur dots on the add for a long time (euphoria cycles a lot faster so both dots on everything faster).
    Then imagine multiple spread out adds just happen to spawn during solar phase and die before u actually enter lunar => a lot less starfall dmg compared to euphoria.

    I guess u get my point. It heavily depends on the boss fight itself and the timings of the spawning adds/targets.

    Another point: almost every single fight has 1 (or more) priority targets and lesser priority targets or an aoe phase + single target phase. So even IF BoP gives u more overall dmg it might still not be the best choice to pick.
    Quick example: ppl used BoP on maidens for more dps even tho euphoria was way better for the encounter itself. The overall dps between euphoria/BoP was close anyway but the fact that the most important phase is the last phase and u need single target dps on a boss (or a turret) and not cleave dmg, made euphoria just better.
    Or Blast Furnace: u might get more overall dmg from BoP but u do less dmg on priority targets.

    TL;DR: Try both talents on fights where u are not sure which one is better (and think about whats more important, aoe or single target dmg), then pick the better one

    Inc/euphoria should be your go-to talent choice tho, it will always be the best or close to the best dps on nearly any fight (imo).

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