[Balance] Hellfire Citadel encounter discussion

[Guzrud]

Ok i really need some help here because when I just try to think about this it is completely contradictory to what people have said for a really long time so if someone could help me out here I will explain this as best I can and someone please explain me to why this is not correct.

So when I simmed my character and came up with these dps numbers.

Inc/Eup-46462
Inc/BoP-44091

Now this is just single target patchwerk so you can see the difference is ~5.3% in favor of Euphoria.

So this says that in a fight where you use 100% of your charges on SS and you get 100% of the benefit from the 20% haste empowers you will out perform BoP.

Now to give the flip side of this lets say that hypothetically you were in a fight and you use 100% of your charges on SF and you cast 0 SS for the entire encounter(yes I understand this is almost never going to happen I am just using this as a reference) In this scenario since the power of Euphoria is only applied to your character upon casting SS you would actually be playing without a level 100 talent. I dont think that anyone can argue that if you cast 0 SS with Euphoria you get zero value from it. If you can I cant wait to read that post.

So if you can accept that casting 0 SS makes Euphoria have 0 Value to your dps and that if you cast 100% of your charges on SS you get 100% of the value then logically there is a percentage between 0 and 100 where the value of BoP will overtake Euphoria since BoP is only ~5% behind Euphoria when Euphoria is played at 100%.

In any situation where you cast SF with Euphoria you lessen the value of the Talent choice because the strength of that Talent is completely based around you not actually using SF at all and using SS to get the buff to your Empowerments.

When playing BoP there is 0 corroding of the value of the talent from casting SF in lieu of SS.

Could someone please explain to me how this is incorrect? Because you have people on these forums saying that casting literally SF with 69.69% of their charges and stating that Euphoria is still better than BoP in a situation where you are only using ~30.3% of the talent they have selected.

I just can not see how this can even be remotely accurate however I could be wrong.

[Lericus]

Thats actually wrong. I used to think the same way (cause logic right?), but the slower/faster moving eclipse bar impacts the dps a lot in fact.
I tried playing BoP on multiple fights in BRF and Highmaul during progress and almost all the time i did more dps with euphoria even on fights with barely any starsurge usage at all. So why is that? the only logical explanation to me is the eclipse affecting our dps quite a lot.

Im not a big theorycrafter at all, but in my opinion its nearly impossible to get any accurate sims about the difference of BoP/euphoria (except for patchwerk fights). Let me give u a quick example:

Imagine a boss like darmac, if u play BoP and u happen to enter lunar or solar phase right when adds spawn u wont be able to get both of ur dots on the add for a long time (euphoria cycles a lot faster so both dots on everything faster).
Then imagine multiple spread out adds just happen to spawn during solar phase and die before u actually enter lunar => a lot less starfall dmg compared to euphoria.

I guess u get my point. It heavily depends on the boss fight itself and the timings of the spawning adds/targets.

Another point: almost every single fight has 1 (or more) priority targets and lesser priority targets or an aoe phase + single target phase. So even IF BoP gives u more overall dmg it might still not be the best choice to pick.
Quick example: ppl used BoP on maidens for more dps even tho euphoria was way better for the encounter itself. The overall dps between euphoria/BoP was close anyway but the fact that the most important phase is the last phase and u need single target dps on a boss (or a turret) and not cleave dmg, made euphoria just better.
Or Blast Furnace: u might get more overall dmg from BoP but u do less dmg on priority targets.

TL;DR: Try both talents on fights where u are not sure which one is better (and think about whats more important, aoe or single target dmg), then pick the better one

Inc/euphoria should be your go-to talent choice tho, it will always be the best or close to the best dps on nearly any fight (imo).

Just to add to this another reason why the faster balance cycle time is beneficial that isn't just situational like the examples above. Since the balance bar is moving faster, you spend less of your overall Starfires and Wraths being cast around the middle of the cycle since you spend way less time there. This means a higher percentage of your Starfires/Wraths would be cast around eclipse with Euphoria than with BoP. Since the benefit of this scales with Mastery, and our Mastery was just buffed with 6.2, it becomes even more beneficial than before to play with Euphoria.

[MV Kaa]

Even when you are using starfall 100% of the time, like council, with euphoria, it is still good because you are in lunar more often, which makes starfall better. If you run BoP, there is a long span of when you arnt in Lunar.

[Guzrud]

Thats actually wrong. I used to think the same way (cause logic right?), but the slower/faster moving eclipse bar impacts the dps a lot in fact.
I tried playing BoP on multiple fights in BRF and Highmaul during progress and almost all the time i did more dps with euphoria even on fights with barely any starsurge usage at all. So why is that? the only logical explanation to me is the eclipse affecting our dps quite a lot.

Im not a big theorycrafter at all, but in my opinion its nearly impossible to get any accurate sims about the difference of BoP/euphoria (except for patchwerk fights). Let me give u a quick example:

Imagine a boss like darmac, if u play BoP and u happen to enter lunar or solar phase right when adds spawn u wont be able to get both of ur dots on the add for a long time (euphoria cycles a lot faster so both dots on everything faster).
Then imagine multiple spread out adds just happen to spawn during solar phase and die before u actually enter lunar => a lot less starfall dmg compared to euphoria.

I guess u get my point. It heavily depends on the boss fight itself and the timings of the spawning adds/targets.

Another point: almost every single fight has 1 (or more) priority targets and lesser priority targets or an aoe phase + single target phase. So even IF BoP gives u more overall dmg it might still not be the best choice to pick.
Quick example: ppl used BoP on maidens for more dps even tho euphoria was way better for the encounter itself. The overall dps between euphoria/BoP was close anyway but the fact that the most important phase is the last phase and u need single target dps on a boss (or a turret) and not cleave dmg, made euphoria just better.
Or Blast Furnace: u might get more overall dmg from BoP but u do less dmg on priority targets.

TL;DR: Try both talents on fights where u are not sure which one is better (and think about whats more important, aoe or single target dmg), then pick the better one

Inc/euphoria should be your go-to talent choice tho, it will always be the best or close to the best dps on nearly any fight (imo).

Ok but on the flip side if you had just hit an eclipse on Darmac you still wouldnt be back to the other one for 20 seconds with Euphoria so while yes there are times when you could potentially gain a small amount of dps from multidots the adds would almost never live more than 20 seconds so that wouldnt really be applicable would it?

You are absolutely correct I would say when you are saying that you could do more damage in general with BoP but less dps to priority targets during a fight I would 100% agree with that. I suppose it would really depend on the needs of your raid team. Would doing 5% less dps to 1 primary target while doing a larger amount of cleave/pad dps be more beneficial to your team? Or is that 5% really necessary to get the priority targets down in the timeframe it takes to defeat the encounter?

Take the Twin Ogrom fight for example. If BoP was played perfectly there wouldnt that scenario be more beneficial to BoP as there is actually no egregious padding there and all dps matters and you could keep up your dots with casts on both targets 100% of the time and use starfalls nonstop while it being completely effective dps?

- - - Updated - - -

Even when you are using starfall 100% of the time, like council, with euphoria, it is still good because you are in lunar more often, which makes starfall better. If you run BoP, there is a long span of when you arnt in Lunar.

You are actually in Lunar the exact same % of the time just longer per lunar which would actually enable you to have SF going longer during peak which would make SF actually more powerful with BoP?

You are just in Lunar twice as often but half as long so its a wash however 1 SF used at 75 power going to Lunar peak would do significantly more damage than one in Euphoria.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to add to this another reason why the faster balance cycle time is beneficial that isn't just situational like the examples above. Since the balance bar is moving faster, you spend less of your overall Starfires and Wraths being cast around the middle of the cycle since you spend way less time there. This means a higher percentage of your Starfires/Wraths would be cast around eclipse with Euphoria than with BoP. Since the benefit of this scales with Mastery, and our Mastery was just buffed with 6.2, it becomes even more beneficial than before to play with Euphoria.

This is completely incorrect as well because while yes you spend more time casting in the middle you also spend twice as long casting at the peaks so its a complete wash. The percentage time you spend at each level of eclipse is exactly the same with each talent BoP actually gives you the ability to cast more spells at peak than Euphoria you just end up casting like you said more at non peak as well.

Did you actually think about this before posting? =P

[Deleted]

Ok but on the flip side if you had just hit an eclipse on Darmac you still wouldnt be back to the other one for 20 seconds with Euphoria so while yes there are times when you could potentially gain a small amount of dps from multidots the adds would almost never live more than 20 seconds so that wouldnt really be applicable would it?

You are absolutely correct I would say when you are saying that you could do more damage in general with BoP but less dps to priority targets during a fight I would 100% agree with that. I suppose it would really depend on the needs of your raid team. Would doing 5% less dps to 1 primary target while doing a larger amount of cleave/pad dps be more beneficial to your team? Or is that 5% really necessary to get the priority targets down in the timeframe it takes to defeat the encounter?

Take the Twin Ogrom fight for example. If BoP was played perfectly there wouldnt that scenario be more beneficial to BoP as there is actually no egregious padding there and all dps matters and you could keep up your dots with casts on both targets 100% of the time and use starfalls nonstop while it being completely effective dps?

- - - Updated - - -



You are actually in Lunar the exact same % of the time just longer per lunar which would actually enable you to have SF going longer during peak which would make SF actually more powerful with BoP?

You are just in Lunar twice as often but half as long so its a wash however 1 SF used at 75 power going to Lunar peak would do significantly more damage than one in Euphoria.

On 2 Target fights u want to play euphoria. And again it has something to do with the eclipse bar moving faster.

Starfall only does more dmg than a starsurge on 2 targets if u are in lunar and it also depends on ur position in lunar. In general a lunar empowerment with max eclipse bonus does more dmg than a solar empowerment with max eclipse.

So what u want to do on 2 targets is: starfall when u enter lunar and starsurge + empowered starfires on your lunar peak. U dont want to starsurge or starfall in solar at all and just use most of ur charges for starfall + starsurge in lunar.

Now with BoP u HAVE to use charges in solar, else u will likely going to cap on charges and thats just overall less dps.

[MV Kaa]

guy ask a question, people answer, guy says their wrong... thread is over

[Lericus]

This is completely incorrect as well because while yes you spend more time casting in the middle you also spend twice as long casting at the peaks so its a complete wash. The percentage time you spend at each level of eclipse is exactly the same with each talent BoP actually gives you the ability to cast more spells at peak than Euphoria you just end up casting like you said more at non peak as well.

Did you actually think about this before posting? =P

I actually did think. Quite a lot in fact! :P

Let's look at the scenario of a typical Patchwerk rotation with BoP. The balance bar is moving slowly and you're casting your Starfires/Wraths on the correct side, switching when you switch between Solar and Lunar, Starsurging at ~80 etc. The bar is moving slow enough that you're gonna land quite a lot of your Starfires/Wraths at 0 eclipse.

Now let's look at the same scenario with Euphoria. The bar is moving faster and if you do it ideally you're gonna be using the GCDs around the middle of the eclipse bar to refresh your dots. By the time you start casting your Starfire/Wrath, you're gonna finish that cast at a higher point in your eclipse bar. You should almost never finish any casts around the middle. As you're switching from Lunar to Solar or vice versa, you're probably already casting your nuke for the next eclipse. Then you're gonna Starsurge, get your empowered nukes out, refresh dots, cast your next nuke to land in the next eclipse, and rinse and repeat.

In each scenario, how many nukes do you land at the peak compared to the middle? The answer is pretty clear.

[Guzrud]

I actually did think. Quite a lot in fact! :P

Let's look at the scenario of a typical Patchwerk rotation with BoP. The balance bar is moving slowly and you're casting your Starfires/Wraths on the correct side, switching when you switch between Solar and Lunar, Starsurging at ~80 etc. The bar is moving slow enough that you're gonna land quite a lot of your Starfires/Wraths at 0 eclipse.

Now let's look at the same scenario with Euphoria. The bar is moving faster and if you do it ideally you're gonna be using the GCDs around the middle of the eclipse bar to refresh your dots. By the time you start casting your Starfire/Wrath, you're gonna finish that cast at a higher point in your eclipse bar. You should almost never finish any casts around the middle. As you're switching from Lunar to Solar or vice versa, you're probably already casting your nuke for the next eclipse. Then you're gonna Starsurge, get your empowered nukes out, refresh dots, cast your next nuke to land in the next eclipse, and rinse and repeat.

In each scenario, how many nukes do you land at the peak compared to the middle? The answer is pretty clear.

The reply is quite simple you will land twice as many at both places....its not like taking Euphoria makes you be in Peak for a longer period of time overall than with BoP you are actually at peak the same amount of time just as you are in the middle the same amount of time. The only difference is the cycle happens faster. You are basically saying that because the bar moves slower you are going to get more nukes in between which is 100% correct but you are completely missing that you are going to be at peak twice as long per cycle which means you will get ...... more nukes at peak as well you are just not thinking about this logically in any way.

1 BoP cycle takes 40 seconds

2 Euphoria cycles takes 40 seconds

It is exactly the same thing you just have double iteration with Euphoria and you spend exactly the same amount of time at every juncture of your eclipse bar so if you are casting 100% of the time like you should be you are going to be casting in the middle half as much but twice as often or vice versa. Your entire theory is completely flawed and incorrect you do not actually gain time at any part of your eclipse bye taking Euphoria.

[Alame]

So, I ran BoP last night on Council for arguments sake.

You can see the logs here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ct174#fight=23

At first glance it seems like a no-brainer that BoP would be better, but that's a little deceiving. I had really good procs on this fight (to the tune of 8 more Shooting Star procs, double the number of GSR procs, more weapon & Darmac's procs, 1 less ring proc) and I also forgot to second pot, how bad am I.

Then there's the gear difference - I was using a Doomstaff for the fight while Ka was using a Flamestaff - and that crit/haste swap up can really be a big factor. Ka crit ~18% of spells while I crit ~21% of spells.

I also think I generally played the fight better than Ka did - my DPS graph has less drop-offs as a result of movement. But I'll let Ka chime in on that one.

My end conclusion is that even though BoP appears to be better (and keep in mind this is before I have SoC, which tilts the equation in Euphoria's favour) removing the confounding factors results in the two being extremely close, even in the BoP best-case-scenario.


On top of that, I agree with Nagura's points regarding the non-numerical benefits of the faster eclipse cycle (one of which being Lericus' example of Euphoria biasing hard-casts towards peak eclipse more than BoP), and the dot application/refreshing consequences.

- - - Updated - - -

This is completely incorrect as well because while yes you spend more time casting in the middle you also spend twice as long casting at the peaks so its a complete wash. The percentage time you spend at each level of eclipse is exactly the same with each talent BoP actually gives you the ability to cast more spells at peak than Euphoria you just end up casting like you said more at non peak as well.

Did you actually think about this before posting? =P

This isn't incorrect at all. You are over-simplifying the scenario by ignoring the changes in rotation as a result of the two talents. Euphoria allows you to use your DoT refresh buffs at the conclusion of each eclipse and spend your low-eclipse periods refreshing DoTs instead of hard-casting nukes. As the direct damage is such a small portion of the value from that GCD, being low in Eclipse is not a significant loss for these GCDs. This is the biasing that shifts your hard-cast nukes (and specifically your empowered nukes) higher in eclipse.

This effect only becomes greater as our haste/crit rises, we recieve more Shooting Star procs, and we approach ~10s/charge generation (we're at about 14-15s/charge right now) and can Starsurge in both eclipses every cycle.

[Deleted]

So, I ran BoP last night on Council for arguments sake.

You can see the logs here:

At first glance it seems like a no-brainer that BoP would be better, but that's a little deceiving. I had really good procs on this fight (to the tune of 8 more Shooting Star procs, double the number of GSR procs, more weapon & Darmac's procs, 1 less ring proc) and I also forgot to second pot, how bad am I.

Then there's the gear difference - I was using a Doomstaff for the fight while Ka was using a Flamestaff - and that crit/haste swap up can really be a big factor. Ka crit ~18% of spells while I crit ~21% of spells.

I also think I generally played the fight better than Ka did - my DPS graph has less drop-offs as a result of movement. But I'll let Ka chime in on that one.

My end conclusion is that even though BoP appears to be better (and keep in mind this is before I have SoC, which tilts the equation in Euphoria's favour) removing the confounding factors results in the two being extremely close, even in the BoP best-case-scenario.


On top of that, I agree with Nagura's points regarding the non-numerical benefits of the faster eclipse cycle (one of which being Lericus' example of Euphoria biasing hard-casts towards peak eclipse more than BoP), and the dot application/refreshing consequences.

- - - Updated - - -



This isn't incorrect at all. You are over-simplifying the scenario by ignoring the changes in rotation as a result of the two talents. Euphoria allows you to use your DoT refresh buffs at the conclusion of each eclipse and spend your low-eclipse periods refreshing DoTs instead of hard-casting nukes. As the direct damage is such a small portion of the value from that GCD, being low in Eclipse is not a significant loss for these GCDs. This is the biasing that shifts your hard-cast nukes (and specifically your empowered nukes) higher in eclipse.

This effect only becomes greater as our haste/crit rises, we recieve more Shooting Star procs, and we approach ~10s/charge generation (we're at about 14-15s/charge right now) and can Starsurge in both eclipses every cycle.

Council is the only fight i think BoP might be better than euphoria in HFC. I tried it on PTR in mythic and seemed to be better for overall dps. Just like maidens tho, there might be important single target phases (the last part of the fight) and euphoria is probably still a better choice.

[Alame]

Council is the only fight i think BoP might be better than euphoria in HFC. I tried it on PTR in mythic and seemed to be better for overall dps. Just like maidens tho, there might be important single target phases (the last part of the fight) and euphoria is probably still a better choice.

Yeah, the point of the exercise was to show how slim the gap between the two talents is even in BoP's best case scenario. Those factors that skew favour towards Euph (Seed, Priority DPS targets, etc) just make Euph the favoured talent regardless of BoP's supposed numerical superiority.

[MV Kaa]

So, I ran BoP last night on Council for arguments sake.

You can see the logs here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ct174#fight=23

At first glance it seems like a no-brainer that BoP would be better, but that's a little deceiving. I had really good procs on this fight (to the tune of 8 more Shooting Star procs, double the number of GSR procs, more weapon & Darmac's procs

story of my life

[Alame]

I generally played the fight better than Ka did

That part? Yeah

[Guzrud]

So, I ran BoP last night on Council for arguments sake.

You can see the logs here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ct174#fight=23

At first glance it seems like a no-brainer that BoP would be better, but that's a little deceiving. I had really good procs on this fight (to the tune of 8 more Shooting Star procs, double the number of GSR procs, more weapon & Darmac's procs, 1 less ring proc) and I also forgot to second pot, how bad am I.

Then there's the gear difference - I was using a Doomstaff for the fight while Ka was using a Flamestaff - and that crit/haste swap up can really be a big factor. Ka crit ~18% of spells while I crit ~21% of spells.

I also think I generally played the fight better than Ka did - my DPS graph has less drop-offs as a result of movement. But I'll let Ka chime in on that one.

My end conclusion is that even though BoP appears to be better (and keep in mind this is before I have SoC, which tilts the equation in Euphoria's favour) removing the confounding factors results in the two being extremely close, even in the BoP best-case-scenario.


On top of that, I agree with Nagura's points regarding the non-numerical benefits of the faster eclipse cycle (one of which being Lericus' example of Euphoria biasing hard-casts towards peak eclipse more than BoP), and the dot application/refreshing consequences.

- - - Updated - - -



This isn't incorrect at all. You are over-simplifying the scenario by ignoring the changes in rotation as a result of the two talents. Euphoria allows you to use your DoT refresh buffs at the conclusion of each eclipse and spend your low-eclipse periods refreshing DoTs instead of hard-casting nukes. As the direct damage is such a small portion of the value from that GCD, being low in Eclipse is not a significant loss for these GCDs. This is the biasing that shifts your hard-cast nukes (and specifically your empowered nukes) higher in eclipse.

This effect only becomes greater as our haste/crit rises, we recieve more Shooting Star procs, and we approach ~10s/charge generation (we're at about 14-15s/charge right now) and can Starsurge in both eclipses every cycle.

Ok I am going to ask some questions about this logic and I am speaking about the last quote here about the time you spend at low eclipse refreshing dots. If you were to take 2 globals refreshing dots at the middle of your eclipse bar you would do 38.9% of your spell power x 2 modified by eclipse of course which would yield 77.8% of SP for those 2 globals. If I cast 1 Wrath during that time I get 140.4% of spellpower thats before my mastery bonus. You actually lose damage to BoP in the middle of your eclipse due to BoP not having to spend globals refreshing dots. After your dot refreshes we are hard casting exactly the same so you dont gain any rotational or dps advantage to refreshing dots in the middle of your eclipse bar do you? The saved globals is a large portion of what makes BoP advantageous.

You do not gain a rotational advantage with Euphorias cycle time. Yes per cycle you are spending less time in the middle however you have twice the cycles thus you are spending the same amount of time there are you not?

[Deleted]

Ok I am going to ask some questions about this logic and I am speaking about the last quote here about the time you spend at low eclipse refreshing dots. If you were to take 2 globals refreshing dots at the middle of your eclipse bar you would do 38.9% of your spell power x 2 modified by eclipse of course which would yield 77.8% of SP for those 2 globals. If I cast 1 Wrath during that time I get 140.4% of spellpower thats before my mastery bonus. You actually lose damage to BoP in the middle of your eclipse due to BoP not having to spend globals refreshing dots. After your dot refreshes we are hard casting exactly the same so you dont gain any rotational or dps advantage to refreshing dots in the middle of your eclipse bar do you? The saved globals is a large portion of what makes BoP advantageous.

You do not gain a rotational advantage with Euphorias cycle time. Yes per cycle you are spending less time in the middle however you have twice the cycles thus you are spending the same amount of time there are you not?

We are talking about 3 targets here (For single target + 2 targets euphoria is better as stated in this thread already). And on 3 targets u DO have to refresh dots, even with BoP. So ure not actually saving a alot of gcds at all

[Alame]

Ok I am going to ask some questions about this logic and I am speaking about the last quote here about the time you spend at low eclipse refreshing dots. If you were to take 2 globals refreshing dots at the middle of your eclipse bar you would do 38.9% of your spell power x 2 modified by eclipse of course which would yield 77.8% of SP for those 2 globals. If I cast 1 Wrath during that time I get 140.4% of spellpower thats before my mastery bonus. You actually lose damage to BoP in the middle of your eclipse due to BoP not having to spend globals refreshing dots. After your dot refreshes we are hard casting exactly the same so you dont gain any rotational or dps advantage to refreshing dots in the middle of your eclipse bar do you? The saved globals is a large portion of what makes BoP advantageous.

You only save globals if you are only maintaining DoTs on 1 target. Otherwise you must still spend globals to refresh dots on targets you aren't sinking SF/W into.

You do not gain a rotational advantage with Euphorias cycle time. Yes per cycle you are spending less time in the middle however you have twice the cycles thus you are spending the same amount of time there are you not?

Think of it this way:

There are two ideal ways to use your low-level eclipse, DoT refreshing, and Starsurge in preparation of Empowered SF/W at peak eclipse.

With Euphoria, your low-level eclipse (say sub-50 energy) comes in 2 second intervals. One 2 second interval at the start of eclipse, and one 2 second interval at the end of eclipse. You Starsurge at the opening of eclipse (after your transitional cast is complete, so you're actually starting 0.5-1s into Eclipse, not strictly at 0) and you refresh your DoTs are the end of eclipse, then begin your transitional cast. The ~1.2s GCD incurred from Starsurge and DoT refreshes, when combined with the cast-times of your transitional casts is usually enough to completely consume your low-eclipse period with an optimal activity.

With BoP, your low-level eclipse comes in 4 second intervals. If I am on 3 target council, I can fill my end-eclipse interval with 2 DoT casts, refreshing on my non-primary targets. Except Sunfire spreads so in Solar I'm doing 1 DoT cast and 1 Wrath instead. The early-eclipse interval can be psuedo-filled with Sunfire and Starsurge in Solar, but then I am using my empowered casts around 70 solar energy, instead of at peak eclipse. In Lunar I am stuck casting low-eclipse Starfires until I reach the appropriate time to Starsurge. My transitional casts will also benefit less from eclipse, as the bar travels less into it's respective eclipse during the transitional cast time.

The rotational advantage from Euphoria is not about spending less time in a low-eclipse state. It's about breaking up low-eclipse intervals into smaller, more manageable chunks that can be filled with an optimal rotation. You are correct that Euphoria and BoP will spend the same amount of time in high and low eclipse states (and in fact the average eclipse benefit from BoP is about 3% higher than that of Euphoria) but the point that you're missing is we're talking about the impact the faster cycle time has on your rotation and how you order your casts. This is the biasing I refer to that shifts your hard-casts and empowered casts to a generally higher eclipse state.

[Guzrud]

I am actually just going to develop a casting model to really delve into this more I could prove myself wrong but so be it if thats the case. I will get back with you guys on Sunday or Monday after Ive had time to work this out and get some real good data.

[MV Kaa]

How about you just do it. All the numbers dont mean shit if it doesnt happen in game.

[Exerionx]

Please don't forget that your overall cleave DPS pad isn't important. If you're strictly starfalling on a council fight especially when the burn phase (sub 20%) is crucial then you are just padding. Euphoria lets us burst down in the burn phase with our cooldowns. If you're going for rankings, go ahead and play BoP and you'll probably rank better until you get SoC. If you're trying to kill the fight and not be a pad lord then pick the talent that the fight warrants. Maidens you should have been using Euphoria because of a) if you are on boats and b) the burn phase is the only hard phase. Council is a very similar fight. Stop being padlords of draenor

Yeah, good point, Euro like you said is juicy for the burn phases on the council fight, we 1 shot it so I couldn't try out BoP, but I'm kind of bumpy with the playstyle anyways.

The add on Iskar Assist makes that fight a joke.

Had no idea that was a thing, definitely going to look into it.

[Deleted]

Basically, bop is a talent you take to whore meters, otherwise you play euphoria, sure BoP will do more dps overall on council fights (no questioning that) but it will do far less when dps actually maters and when you have to focus on priority targets. Just like it was on Maidens, BoP did more overall but in reality bop sucked on the only part of the fight that mattered (last 20%), same goes for Hellfire council imo.