Confederate Flag vs Nazi Flag

[Ripster42]

Totally different. You've entrenched yourself with your view. It's sad, but okay.

Totally the same. You've entrenched yourself with your view. It's sad, but okay.

[Gothicshark]

I need to make a retraction.


Earlier in this thread I defended the historic meaning and legacy of the Army of Northern Virginia's Battle Flag. And from the historical truth, and the historical records of the time, and history of that flags use, I will stand firm that in the past it's meaning was not about Racism. However, Because of F**knut racist morons the meaning of that flag has been perverted in much the same way the Nazi's perverted the Swastika. Fortunately, if we can remove the Racists that flag could be redeemed at some future point, but for now it should be placed in a Museum and forgotten for a few generations.

[Kaleredar]

I need to make a retraction.


Earlier in this thread I defended the historic meaning and legacy of the Army of Northern Virginia's Battle Flag. And from the historical truth, and the historical records of the time, and history of that flags use, I will stand firm that in the past it's meaning was not about Racism. However, Because of F**knut racist morons the meaning of that flag has been perverted in much the same way the Nazi's perverted the Swastika. Fortunately, if we can remove the Racists that flag could be redeemed at some future point, but for now it should be placed in a Museum and forgotten for a few generations.

The only way it's going to be "forgotten" is if humanity forgets that nazis and the confederacy every existed, period.


There's no way to dell what awful connotations the swastika, or the stars and bars, mean for a great many people in anything regarding a contemporary time frame.

[Deleted]

Wow... just wow...
Comparing the confederate flag to the Nazi flag... Really?

Do some Americans really hate their own country and it's history that much !?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

It's not entrechment when you've formed an rational decision based on hard data and facts and keep it until the facts change.

"Hard data and facts...?"

[Phlegethon]

I'm honestly tired of seeing these memes. I'll warn you, I'm not a massive war buff. I have had to study both the American Civil War and World War 2 in High School and College. But I'm not seeing many parallels here.


I get it, some people equate the confederate flag to slavery and therefore racism... but the American Civil War was about more than just "hick southerners want slaves." Say what you will about the US and its states rights debate... but equating all that to everything World War 2 was about...

What do you guys think?

I think that you would not be able to walk around in your street with a huge ass swastika on a flag...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
While everyone with half a brain knows what the original and real meaning of the symbol is.

So, they are more alike than you seem to know or want to admit... And the swastika even had a few thousand years of history instead of a few hundred for your confederate flag...

[Fencers]

The thing is what does displaying the Confederate flag accomplish? What do people believe they are representing vs. what the flag symbolized historically?

The Confederacy was an illegal rebellion against the Untied States government. They lost. The flag is representative of the Confederacy of the US, it's actions and values. Little of which was in line with the winning side of the American Civil War and the predominant culture of the US currently due to progressive changes in social attitudes and economic policies.

One is in fact, and simply, displaying a rebel flag that has negative social connotations for the majority of Americans. People are in the right to take offense to the Confederate flag and it's display.

Nothing inherently wrong with displaying the Confederate flag in historical contexts or media, however. Though hanging one outside a state capital should rightly be illegal, while hanging one in your window is just being a dick.

[ringpriest]

I get it, some people equate the confederate flag to slavery and therefore racism... but the American Civil War was about more than just "hick southerners want slaves." Say what you will about the US and its states rights debate... but equating all that to everything World War 2 was about...

What do you guys think?

Yes... it was also about "rich, urban Southerns want slaves" - from the Cornerstone Address, given by the Vice-President of the Confederacy weeks after much of the South had seceded, and three weeks before Lincoln's inaguration (and about a month before Fort Sumter):

"The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell.

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition"

That pretty much says it all - anyone who pretends that the Confederacy was based on anything other than wholehearted championing of the twin evils of racism and slavery is deluding themselves.

[Gothicshark]

The only way it's going to be "forgotten" is if humanity forgets that nazis and the confederacy every existed, period.


There's no way to dell what awful connotations the swastika, or the stars and bars, mean for a great many people in anything regarding a contemporary time frame.

Actually, only the Nazi's were unforgivable, the Confederacy if you understand the history is a vastly different story. What tarnishes the history is not the Civil War, or events leading up to it, the sins that people actually understand are what is happening now. The brutality and savagery of modern racist is abhorrent. For most people who descend from slavery it's not the treatment of their ancestors that has them upset, it's the treatment they receive today that is the issue. If the Battle Flag was only used for Southern Heritage no one would care, but the a##%$les love to wave that flag right along side the perverted swastika.

So yah people who care about Southern History, and culture need to back away from that flag. I suggest using the first CSA standard, since it is not used by Racists.

Heritage


Not Racism



Although Sarcasm is still fine.

[Deleted]

The thing is what does displaying the Confederate flag accomplish? What do people believe they are representing vs. what the flag symbolized historically?

Honouring their ancestors?

The Confederacy was an illegal rebellion against the Untied States government. They lost. The flag is representative of the Confederacy of the US, it's actions and values. Little of which was in line with the winning side of the American Civil War and the predominant culture of the US currently due to progressive changes in social attitudes and economic policies.

Please for the love of god, stop calling it an illegal rebellion, There is no such thing as a legal rebellion, the very act and meaning of the word, is by necessity, illegal.

One is in fact, and simply, displaying a rebel flag that has negative social connotations for the majority of Americans. People are in the right to take offense to the Confederate flag and it's display.

Their offence does not constitute a valid reason to do fuckall.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes... it was also about "rich, urban Southerns want slaves" - from the Cornerstone Address, given by the Vice-President of the Confederacy weeks after much of the South had seceded, and three weeks before Lincoln's inaguration (and about a month before Fort Sumter):

That pretty much says it all - anyone who pretends that the Confederacy was based on anything other than wholehearted championing of the twin evils of racism and slavery is deluding themselves.

Okay, A, the first inkling of the civil war was born the second the US became a nation, because for some, it wasn't a nation, but a union.
B, The degree to whit the federal government could compel a state to follow its economic policy, - For all intents and purposes a civil war that just did not begin.
C, These questions were all the reasons for the civil war, the slavery issue merely the flashpoint.
D, It is a very valid point that if Lincoln had just had a hard-on for tariffs or something instead then maybe the south would have just complained.
E, in short, to reduce it to just 'slavery!' is moronic.

[arandomuser]

Difference

Nazi flag is banned in germany.
Neo nazis use confederate flag in their rallies
Totally not a racist symbol i cant believe people would think otherwise especially african americans that were terrorized by flag waving KKKs that burned their churches or lynched their community.

[Deleted]

Yes, it is. Thinking that the n word isn't racist, and then calling black people that word doesn't make you not racist.

Nope.
It makes you ignorant, not racist.
You cant be unknowingly racist.

[ringpriest]

Their offence does not constitute a valid reason to do fuckall.

What exactly has been done to the "Confederate flag" and its supporters, other than people deciding to not fly or otherwise display it, and (rightfully) treat those who do as people who (wittingly or otherwise) are promoting a symbol that stands for some pretty vile attitudes?

I have yet to see a single example of anything beyond "People don't like my favorite symbol now, and that's oppression!" Have any states banned members of the public from flying it? Is it illegal to sell images of it anywhere? As with most complaints from what I see as right-wingnuts, the claims of "oppression" amount to the spoiled-child whine of, "other people aren't doing what I want!"

Okay, A, the first inkling of the civil war was born the second the US became a nation, because for some, it wasn't a nation, but a union.
B, The degree to whit the federal government could compel a state to follow its economic policy, - For all intents and purposes a civil war that just did not begin.
C, These questions were all the reasons for the civil war, the slavery issue merely the flashpoint.
D, It is a very valid point that if Lincoln had just had a hard-on for tariffs or something instead then maybe the south would have just complained.
E, in short, to reduce it to just 'slavery!' is moronic.

Absolute Proof the Civil War Was About Slavery

It's About Slavery, Stupid

The Atlantic provides a nice summation of the various Southern States' declarations of secession and war, "What This Cruel War Was Over". They were quite explicit:

Mississippi - "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world."

Louisiana - "The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery."

Alabama - "Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans."

Texas - "...in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states...."

The men who wrote the above (and a great deal of similar wickedness) then proceeded to go on and launch a war of choice that killed hundreds of thousands and brought suffering to hundreds of thousands (if not millions) more - all in order to perpetuate their wretched beliefs for their own personal advantage; their actions and intent were evil, whether they acknowledged it or not. You can pretend otherwise now, but if you do so, you are wrong, just as they were.

[Deleted]

It's About Slavery, Stupid

Did the north declare war because of slavery?

[Deleted]

What exactly has been done to the "Confederate flag" and its supporters, other than people deciding to not fly or otherwise display it, and (rightfully) treat those who do as people who (wittingly or otherwise) are promoting a symbol that stands for some pretty vile attitudes?

One is in fact, and simply, displaying a rebel flag that has negative social connotations for the majority of Americans. People are in the right to take offense to the Confederate flag and it's display.

Please read what i type in context please.

Absolute Proof the Civil War Was About Slavery

It's About Slavery, Stupid

The Atlantic provides a nice summation of the various Southern States' declarations of secession and war, "What This Cruel War Was Over". They were quite explicit:

Mississippi - "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world."

Louisiana - "The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery."

Alabama - "Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans."

Texas - "...in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states...."

The men who wrote the above (and a great deal of similar wickedness) then proceeded to go on and launch a war of choice that killed hundreds of thousands and brought suffering to hundreds of thousands (if not millions) more - all in order to perpetuate their wretched beliefs for their own personal advantage; their actions and intent were evil, whether they acknowledged it or not. You can pretend otherwise now, but if you do so, you are wrong, just as they were.

you just did not read what i wrote did you.

[Kaleredar]

Did the north declare war because of slavery?

The North's "deceleration of war" came in the form of blockading sea ports to cut down the South's potential trade opportunities; southern states had already seceded.