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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    That's exactly what I'm saying. The elephant in the room being, maybe female action characters aren't succesful because... women aren't into action as much? Unless they expect men to suddenly like their female characters and potentially terrible male characters, which is exactly the same thing they were complaining about in the first place.
    I don't know if they do or not. I don't think that should stop or encourage somebody to make a character a specific gender just for this reason.

    I just can't sympathize with the idea of focusing on something a character cannot control. I feel the exact same about gay characters, where apparently I get afforded more credibility on the issue just because I'm gay as well (Which I also think is stupid but what can you do. I think I can sympathize with a straight female character as a gay man or any other combination, but apparently the talking point is that you just can't appareciate it as much unless you are that specific thing). I've always found stories where the focus is on a character's motivations or the like are far more interesting than ones where it revolves around "I'm a woman" or "I'm a gay."
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2015-06-27 at 11:23 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    Action movies lack (good) female protagonists, comic books lack (good) female protagonists, videogames lack (good) female protagonists.

    You want to know why? Because men write those things, and believe it or not, it's hard to come up with good characters that don't think the way you do, and the characters that you end up creating to compensate feel forced and/or unnatural.

    The kind of writers that are able to project their creativity into more varied characters don't usually write superheroes.

    If women are so interested in reading, watching or playing these media, they'll have to start making their own. Same thing for race and sexual preference.

    Now, how succesful can they be when most of the consumers are allegedly 'young white males' who, for the same reason these people don't like the 'normal' superheroes, won't like their work is another matter entirely.

    As for Suicide Squad specifically, none of the characters is supposed to be likeable or relatable. Or does she think Deadshot, Captain Boomerang and Killer Croc are interesting and believable male role models? Not to mention the character Harley is obsessed with.
    Comics and the media related to it is full of crap. Shallow characters is hardly the biggest problem with it, just one part of many.

    On the other hand, female writers tend to write a lot of nonsensical drivel that's also pretty terrible but for other reasons.

    See, it's not about gender, it's that being an exceptional writer is...exceptional. The one and only writer that I've so far thought writes consistently good characters no matter their gender is George R.R. Martin, because he doesn't seem to write them as men or women, but as the characters they're supposed to be. If you get my meaning.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    Not at all, but I would say they are too few and far between, but then again I am also a guy, so there is always going to be some part of her point of view she is coming from that I'll not completely understand.

    I mean I don't even know her process for saying all of what she said and I certainly haven't determined that by the bit she went on about there. The point is despite whatever I think many women might not consider Ripley a very strong female character, and I am open minded enough to consider that's a possibility.
    Just because a % believe it so doesn't make it true...

    Anybody who knows comics/movies can cite an impressive roster of strong female characters in fiction. Is it on a completely 50/50 level? No, that's near impossible but it's far from a small number and in actuality is increasing. As I say citing fallacies like she is just shits all over established characters

  4. #24
    Herald of the Titans The Flavour Cat's Avatar
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    She kinda has a point about how female superheroes are dressed. If the hero has a costume that reveals skin, and they're going up against someone of equal power or wielding powerful weapons, then they're badly dressed for battle. An evil archer (Yeah, it sounds stupid) could just fire an arrow straight into the woman's chest because she forgot her breastplate. If the creator and/or artist want the female character to be sexy, they can still be sexy and covered head to toe in armour, kinda like Yrel.
    Isn't it ironic how education is important, yet people forget all about it when they visit the internet?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    I don't know if they do or not. I don't think that should stop or encourage somebody to make a character a specific gender just for this reason.

    I just can't sympathize with the idea of focusing on something a character cannot control. I feel the exact same about gay characters, where apparently I get afforded more credibility on the issue just because I'm gay as well (Which I also think is stupid but what can you do. I think I can sympathize with a straight female character as a gay man or any other combination, but apparently the talking point is that you just can't appareciate it as much unless you are that specific thing). I've always found stories where the focus is on a character's motivations or the like are far more interesting than ones where it revolves around "I'm a woman" or "I'm a gay."
    Absolutely. Forced characters are exactly what happens when complainers just... complain.

    - 'Hey, straight white male writer, I'm outraged with the lack of representation in your work, CHANGE IT'

    - 'You sure you don't want to do it yourself? I don't think I'm the right person to write that stuff'

    - 'DO IT'

    - 'Fine, here you go'

    - 'This is crap, this character isn't the way I, as someone who understands this lifestyle better than you, would have done it'

    - 'Then why didn't you do it?'

    - 'Shut up! Do it again!'

  6. #26
    Dreadlord Joathen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Flavour Cat View Post
    She kinda has a point about how female superheroes are dressed. If the hero has a costume that reveals skin, and they're going up against someone of equal power or wielding powerful weapons, then they're badly dressed for battle. An evil archer (Yeah, it sounds stupid) could just fire an arrow straight into the woman's chest because she forgot her breastplate. If the creator and/or artist want the female character to be sexy, they can still be sexy and covered head to toe in armour, kinda like Yrel.
    The clothes aren't what makes Supergirl or Superman damage resistant, they don't wear them for protection- in fact most heroes don't, it's usually to provide some modesty and hide an identity. That's also the reason why their costumes are so bright and vibrant, it's a image thing- otherwise they'd just wear urban camouflage and Kevlar.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by The Flavour Cat View Post
    She kinda has a point about how female superheroes are dressed. If the hero has a costume that reveals skin, and they're going up against someone of equal power or wielding powerful weapons, then they're badly dressed for battle. An evil archer (Yeah, it sounds stupid) could just fire an arrow straight into the woman's chest because she forgot her breastplate. If the creator and/or artist want the female character to be sexy, they can still be sexy and covered head to toe in armour, kinda like Yrel.
    Wonder Woman is an odd choice if she wanted to talk about this, though. While she isn't completely invulnerable to damage, it takes something with a lot of concussive force to break her skin. She can withstand a lot of damage just by her being empowered by Olympus (Using Origin since its more current).

    Also is it really better if there's some irrelevant thin cloth covering a character's stomach or not? I mean Superman's suit isn't revealing in the sense of actually seeing skin but like most superhero outfits you can basically see the contours of every muscle on their body. And there are plenty of male super heros, I'd go so far to say most of them, who are absurdly muscular to the point of impossibility. I'm not saying this should change, but just that I think its a bit silly to pretend its a one-gendered "problem."
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2015-06-27 at 11:35 AM.

  8. #28
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    Just because a % believe it so doesn't make it true...

    Anybody who knows comics/movies can cite an impressive roster of strong female characters in fiction. Is it on a completely 50/50 level? No, that's near impossible but it's far from a small number and in actuality is increasing. As I say citing fallacies like she is just shits all over established characters
    I don't agree, and just because you say it isn't true, doesn't make Cara wrong either. As I said, I am not her, I don't know her process, so just because YOU see a lot of female characters in strong roles doesn't mean she feels the same way.


    Doesn't matter what a character was meant to be either, and Yes, I have read comics since the late 80's all the way to late 90's so as I said, even from my point of view not saying I agree with her totally, it is true.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  9. #29
    Superhero comics are of course sexist. One would be making a fool out of themselves trying to deny that.

    The point is though: is it that much of a deal? If you're gonna look at everything through that socio-political lens, maybe you should go and read something else. And: it's kind of ironic when a supermodel brat, of all people, goes ahead to criticize sexism in media, while working in the flagship business of the objectification of the body.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Joathen View Post
    The clothes aren't what makes Supergirl or Superman damage resistant, they don't wear them for protection- in fact most heroes don't, it's usually to provide some modesty and hide an identity. That's also the reason why their costumes are so bright and vibrant, it's a image thing- otherwise they'd just wear urban camouflage and Kevlar.
    It also has a lot to do with branding and marketing. If all superheroes wore casual or combat clothes, you would barely be able to tell them apart.

    They're not supposed to be realistic.

    By the way, out of the three, Enchantress is the LEAST sexualized character.
    Last edited by Soulwind; 2015-06-27 at 11:37 AM.

  11. #31
    I don't agree, and just because you say it isn't true, doesn't make Cara wrong either. As I said, I am not her, I don't know her process, so just because YOU see a lot of female characters in strong roles doesn't mean she feels the same way.
    If you're going to play this game of such utter subjectivity, then the conversation is all but worthless. To the point that she should just make her own superhero she wants to see. She's speaking in a very broad sense about all of super herodom. And plenty of people disagree with the assessment she's giving here.

    If you want to say, "Well maybe she doesn't see those characters in a positive way like a bunch of other people do" then what is exactly the solution? Change things based on her subjective view? What gives her subjectivity more validity than others?
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2015-06-27 at 11:52 AM.

  12. #32
    Meh, to hell with those that write and produce solely to catter to that kind of audience or bring diversity for the sake of diversity. A bunch of spineless people honestly.
    That's why I like people who write stories for the sake of having a good story and not for political reasons.

  13. #33
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    that's called Publicity

    ........only fools rush in..(care about it/fall for it)

    mission accomplished.....
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  14. #34
    Oh and sexualization isn't a moral concept. Not for females nor males. It's biology, it's wired into our brains. The opposite however, is a moral thing.

  15. #35
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    Good thing she wont be doing any super hero movie.... ohh wait :P
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    Action movies lack (good) female protagonists, comic books lack (good) female protagonists, videogames lack (good) female protagonists...
    Trinity (Matrix), The Bride (Kill Bill), Selene (Underworld), Black Widow (Iron Man 2), River Tam (Serenity)... just a few off the top of my head. Movies have come along much further than fem-nazis would have you believe.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    Trinity (Matrix), The Bride (Kill Bill), Selene (Underworld), Black Widow (Iron Man 2), River Tam (Serenity)... just a few off the top of my head. Movies have come along much further than fem-nazis would have you believe.
    Not to say you're wrong, but only two of those are protagonists. One being awesome but as deep as any Stallone character (The Bride) and the other one being the director's wet dream (Selene). Although the same could be said about most action male protagonists, I guess.

  18. #38
    She can go fuck right the hell off if she's not going to provide any evidence. How the hell do these movies foster, involve or pertain to sexism? The one example she cites is Wonder Woman, who has not yet been in a superhero movie. Her example is also retarded. What female superheroes go into battle naked or wearing a bikini? When does this ever happen? And if it has somehow happened across the thousands and thousands of comic book issues since the 40s, to claim that it's the norm is so bullshit I don't even. What Wonder Woman wears is closer to a leotard, with some parts that are armored. Realistically, that's just for show anyway. Her notion that Wonder Woman should be dead because of what she wears into battle shows a distinct lack of understanding of DC Comics and Wonder Woman in particular.

    It doesn't matter what Wonder Woman wears because virtually any substance in the cosmos would provide little to no protection against a foe that would be a credible threat to Wonder Woman. She's a match for Superman. You could drop a planet on either of them and the worst thing it would do is give them a bump on the head. To actually kill someone like that, you would need forces that are beyond ridiculous. Things that can crush whole planets or even solar systems with ease. What the fuck kind of clothing or armor is gonna protect against that? It's not like they have 5 duplicates of Aegis to melt down to make some full plate. Her bracers are basically the only substance that exists that can stop something that's genuinely threatening like the Omega Beams. And it's not like this is rocket surgery. Some casual watching of the animated movies will clue you in to most of what I've said here. She comes off like the kind of moron that makes hasty blanket statements about things they don't care about and have never experienced.

    She has no idea what she's talking about and Kalis fucking nailed it in post 3.

    On the topic of video games, since that's come up in this thread. I will have no respect for anyone saying that there's no good female characters unless they've played Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy 13. I also rofl every time people list good, strong female video game protagonists and Lightning isn't brought up. It's no surprise though, LR and the FF13 series in general is not a story for stupid people. It's the viewers are geniuses trope. Bitches don't know about Lightning's Big Bang.
    Last edited by OrcsRLame; 2015-06-27 at 12:26 PM.

  19. #39
    She's late to that party.
    The narrative is crumbling and people are getting off the outrage train: it's clear now that the trail ends on a cliff. Was a fun ride, though.

  20. #40
    Warchief Eace's Avatar
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    She needs to learn the difference between sexist and sexualised. It's not like the men in superhero movies represent the average man with their hulking muscles and good looks.
    "We don't care what people say, we know the truth. Enough is enough with this horse s***. I am not a freak, I was born with my free gun. Don't tell me I'm less than my freedom."

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