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  1. #1

    [6.2] Healing Priest Stat Weights and BiS lists

    So there's a few threads on these forums floating about, including the threads containing various BiS lists. All of these BiS lists are derived from stat weights and I've been saying for some time that I needed to revisit these weights for both holy disc.

    As a disclaimer this is my THEORYcrafting, it is theory and may contain errors. Don't take any of this as hard fact, it's sold as seen and is my best effort.

    To arrive at these conclusions I used 2 methods;
    1) Mylliors spreadsheets, they are super useful. I took the top logs I could find for each spec and put them through these spreadsheets. These are the max hps fights I could find - what good is a BiS list without a BiS fight? (probably quite useful, but if I open that floodgate there's no coming back)
    2) I used my own spreadsheet which is a general model of max potential throughput within certain parameters (stats, fight length, spirit). The aim of this spreadsheet wasn't to model any specific fight but more to model what is possible in ideal circumstances, it has knock on uses for modelling specific phases (eg, last phase of Imperator Margok mythic, assuming you enter with 0 mana. Would equipping more intellect or spirit help your hps most here? Find out later!) and has the drawback that it is not a simulation, it's a measurement of the average only. it assumed perfect conditions, unlimited damage to heal on unlimited targets with 0 overhealing. Interestingly, despite these conditions the stat weights lined up very well with Mylliors spreadsheets, as you'll see below.
    All of the calculations used my proposed BiS lists (as linked elsewhere on these forums) as a starting point, that means these stat weights are for ENDGAME, for determining BiS (BEST IN SLOT!). For my own spreadsheets it was essentially a game of adding x amount of a stat and recording the increase in healing done over the given time frame. The given time frame was the time until oom with the baseline gearset for each spec. The 'x' amount of stat increases I measured were +50, +100, +500 and +1000. Whilst +1000 of any stat is quite unobtainable at this ilvl I wanted to include it to make obvious any scaling issues.
    These stat weights were also only done for specific talent choices. For Mylliors spreadsheet the talents from the logs were used. For my own the following combination was used for each spec;
    As holy I ran with mindbender, Cascade and PoM
    As disc I ran with solace, cascade and PoM.
    Adding ToF into the mix made very little difference and I struggled to find a way to accurately model how players use PI and adding the average haste amount didn't really feel like an accurate representation. If you wished to find stat weights DURING PI that would be more feasible but ultimately not that useful (at least to me). And since they were all done in BiS gear, tier sets were included - as proposed in the BiS lists.
    I should also note that haste and spirit are modelled differently.
    Haste is modelled as a pure throughput stat with absolutely no consideration to mana. A useful thing to know if you're looking to increase your potential burst, also useful if you never go oom. I'll add some stat weights from my own spreadsheet for haste if you DO go oom although it's superficial at best. I'd propose that for most fights you should gear for the important parts, if a fight has 'downtime' then you can effectively deduct that from the fight length and determine if you go oom in the 'burst phase', which is what this is modelling.
    Spirit was calculated using my own spreadsheet with a negative value. ie, how much healing is LOST as I remove spirit but maintain the fight length.
    For example; if I do 150k hps over 300sec baseline, how much hps can I do over 300sec with baseline-100 spirit?
    The spreadsheet models this by dropping inefficient spells to continue casting the most valuable spells for the duration inputted, rather than simply stop casting when oom and trying to cast the next spell in the queue like some other models.
    Obviously, if you CAN'T go oom in a fight whilst maximizing your hps then spirit has 0 value.

    HOLY

    Starting with holy these are the stat weights I got from Myllior;

    Int 1.00
    SP 0.91
    Crit 0.70
    Mastery 0.50
    Haste(HPET) 0.71
    Multistrike 0.76
    Versatility 0.63
    Spirit NA

    And from my spreadsheet;

    Int 1.00
    SP 0.91
    Crit 0.64
    Mastery 0.55
    Haste(hps) 0.7
    Multistrike 0.82
    Versatility 0.65
    Spirit 1.02
    Haste(oom) 0.2

    As you can see they're relatively in agreement with each other. The biggest difference between them is mastery, which can easily be explained by the fact my spreadsheet does not take into account overhealing whilst Mylliors does. The big jump on multistrike on mine is trickier to explain, I'm certainly open to suggestions!
    You could budget for haste(oom) by taking into account the spirit needed to outweight to speed of going oom which would give haste a value of 0.5, but that's awfully clunky so I'll leave it there.
    For reference in BiS gear I calculate that a maximum throughput 'rotation' can be sustained for 287.62 sec. Take that as you will.

    Average stat weights for holy;

    Int 1
    SP 0.91
    Crit 0.67
    Mastery 0.53
    Haste 0.71
    Multistrike 0.79
    Versatility 0.64
    Spirit 1.02


    This results in the following BiS list;

    Countenance of the Revenant
    Locket of Unholy Reconstitution
    Mantle of the Eredar Lord
    Drape of Beckoned Souls
    Pious Raiment
    Powder Singed Bracers
    Satin Gloves of Injustice
    Demonbuckle Sash of Argus
    Pious Leggings
    Bloody Dagger-Heeled Pumps
    Ring of Foul Temptation
    legendary 795
    Unstable Felshadow Emulsion / Intuitions Gift
    Demonic Phylactery
    Gavel of the Eredar
    Gibbering Madness

    as mentioned elsewhere a lot of items have other options that are very close in value

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DISC

    Stat weights from Myllior;

    Int 1.00
    SP 0.91
    Crit 0.7
    Mastery 0.83
    Haste(HPET) 0.81
    Multistrike 0.65
    Versatility 0.64

    From myself;

    Int 1.00
    SP 0.91
    Crit 0.7
    Mastery 0.8
    Haste(hps) 0.77
    Multistrike 0.72
    Versatility 0.65
    Spirit 0.82
    Haste(oom) 0.00

    Once again that unexplained multistrike jump. The rest is almost perfectly in alignment considering real world logs vs theoretical maximum.
    Spirit was calculated in the same way as holy although with a much easier to measure result. Going oom means less PWS and no other real knock-on effects (some BT downtime). The very interesting thing to note here is that the value is below that of intellect
    Remember that spirit was valued when oom, adding spirit would let you cast more. In the margok situation mentioned at the top of the post where you enter a phase on 0 mana and you're 'waiting' for mana to cast then adding a point of intellect would be more beneficial to your hps than 1 point of spirit. This is quite contrary to Holy where adding spirit would increase your hps.

    Similarly with haste. More haste = more shields, and not much else. Unlikely holy that gains renew ticks, potential CoH casts, lightwell ticks and the rest. There is also no benefit of haste, to disc, when oom since it doesn't increase the hpm of any spell used and quite simply any extra shields granted by a shorter GCD in the given time frame is negated by the lack of mana to actually cast them. However.... unlike holy, in baseline BiS gear disc can sustain it's max throughput 'rotation' for 393.93 sec, a good 6.5 minutes of solid casting. Again, take that as you will but i think you'd struggle to convince me there is a fight in HFC with more than 6.5minutes of max hps requirements that would cause haste to be devalued. Any amount of downtime will just extend this, need to move when you could be casting Emp PoH? you just gained time. No damage out on the raid worth using cascade? gained time. Add needs to die and you're smiting? Gained time. You get the idea.

    Average stat weights for disc;

    Int 1
    SP 0.91
    Crit 0.7
    Mastery 0.82
    Haste 0.79
    Multistrike 0.69
    Versatility 0.65
    Spirit 0.82


    and BiS list for disc;

    Demon Prince's Ascendant Crown
    Vial of Immiscible Liquid
    Pious Mantle
    Cloak of Insatiable Greed
    Pious Raiment
    Contemptuous Wristguards
    Pious Handwraps
    Demonbuckle Sash of Argus
    Pious Leggings
    Dessicated Soulrender Slippers (TRASH)
    Pompous Ceremonial Ring
    795 legendary
    Flicking Felspark / Intuitions Gift / Shadowmoon insignia
    Demonic Phylactery
    Edict of Argus


    Good luck with loots!



    EDIT to include spreadsheets.
    Mylliors are very user friendly. Good luck deciphering mine but I'll include them for completeness.
    Mine;
    Spell calcs-
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=311063546
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...BpT5BcwaU/edit
    Proposed BiS lists / upgrade sheet / Item values-
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1105084857

    Mylliors;
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...on-Spreadsheet
    Last edited by Redsparowe; 2015-08-20 at 12:45 AM.
    Minhee <Converge>, Khadgar EU, redsparowe#2548

  2. #2
    I'm confused about the Coin Values a bit. For holy it looks like most of them have no value according to your graph, yet some bosses drop more than 1 BiS item (Mannoroth in particular has a potential loot table of 4, and 3 of them are BiS).

    edit: Sorry, apparently it wasn't loading properly. *embarrassed*
    Last edited by Thirteen; 2015-06-28 at 12:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Valancer View Post
    I play as a holy priest and when I ran hfc lfr I noticed after the first boss my heal spell wasn't casting. So I looked at it and it shows that it has a 34.4 min cast time
    Do you have the class trinket? If so, the cast time is correct. /s

  3. #3
    Desecrated Shadowmoon Insignia is a contender for BiS over Flickering Felspark depending on if you prefer procs or static stats (imo)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffel View Post
    Desecrated Shadowmoon Insignia is a contender for BiS over Flickering Felspark depending on if you prefer procs or static stats (imo)
    Yup, definitely a contender. The reason I've not included it in my BiS list is because I'm using the max values for both haste and spirit (which actually suits me just fine, considering ~6.5min before oom in this set), if you devalue those stats then shadowmoon insignia becomes relatively stronger - if you like the proc (something I don't like, personally). If you are playing with different stat weights with my spreadsheet, there's a cell labelled 'proc effectiveness', which is just a multiplier on any of the trinket procs, if you wanted to see how much % of the proc you'll need make use of to outweigh other trinkets
    Minhee <Converge>, Khadgar EU, redsparowe#2548

  5. #5
    Ya, I don't know how I feel about it either, personally. I'm not a huge fan of procs in general as a healer, but the DSI has a really high RPPM compared to other previous proc trinkets, so its the only reason I'm really considering it. Chances are I'll just end up picking up whichever one I can and then if I end up with both, just swapping depending on the fight.

    While I prefer haste in some situations, I tend to run with a little less on fights I'm not using a lot of CoW on, so I usually have a set with higher haste for those fights. With our T18 2pc, I really miss being able to smite to lower Penance CD because on some mythic fights, penance is just going to be so insane, like the Touch of Harm on Velhari or the Befouled on Fel Lord.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Shinra1's Avatar
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    is the class trinket not even worth considering?
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I AM A MACHINE, and I can know much more.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    is the class trinket not even worth considering?
    Not the slightest bit. At best (when you don't cast Heal in Sanctuary), it's on par with an empty slot. Else it's worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Valancer View Post
    I play as a holy priest and when I ran hfc lfr I noticed after the first boss my heal spell wasn't casting. So I looked at it and it shows that it has a 34.4 min cast time
    Do you have the class trinket? If so, the cast time is correct. /s

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    Not the slightest bit. At best (when you don't cast Heal in Sanctuary), it's on par with an empty slot. Else it's worse.
    I was talking about disc. I've deleted my holy spec :P
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I AM A MACHINE, and I can know much more.
    ---
    I'm anti abortion, euthanasia, guns, drugs/alcohol, breast-feeding, paternity leave.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    I was talking about disc. I've deleted my holy spec :P
    Oh, didn't you play holy at one point? Well, either way, can't say much about disc, but from what I've heard it's just not worth the throughput you're losing from not having another one equipped. Not to mention there's other classes (locks, spriests) that benefit a loooooooot more than you from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Valancer View Post
    I play as a holy priest and when I ran hfc lfr I noticed after the first boss my heal spell wasn't casting. So I looked at it and it shows that it has a 34.4 min cast time
    Do you have the class trinket? If so, the cast time is correct. /s

  10. #10
    I wonder if the Holy 4 piece is worth it. Already now PoMs jump to the same target quite often due to the way it works, and a set bonus that just generates another PoM (with presumably the same stacks as the one it split from) doesn't seem that strong overall, and going back to 5 stacks/cast without T17 isn't helping it.

    Has anyone checked if you can replace 2 slots of the tier set with actually better non-set items?
    League: Grxl-EUW
    Guild Wars: Grxl.5236 @ Gandara
    WoW Priest | Paladin | Shaman | Death Knight

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Grxl View Post
    I wonder if the Holy 4 piece is worth it. Already now PoMs jump to the same target quite often due to the way it works, and a set bonus that just generates another PoM (with presumably the same stacks as the one it split from) doesn't seem that strong overall, and going back to 5 stacks/cast without T17 isn't helping it.

    Has anyone checked if you can replace 2 slots of the tier set with actually better non-set items?
    The BiS list in the first post is without 4piece. Worth noting however that until mythic archimonde loot is available, the 4set probably outweighs offpieces
    Minhee <Converge>, Khadgar EU, redsparowe#2548

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    Oh, didn't you play holy at one point? Well, either way, can't say much about disc, but from what I've heard it's just not worth the throughput you're losing from not having another one equipped. Not to mention there's other classes (locks, spriests) that benefit a loooooooot more than you from it.
    Well for disc I was thinking since the 2/4set is very penance based that it would have nice interaction with the disc specific trinket but I was surprised not to see it in the bis list by red


    And yeah I did play holy but I switched disc...if you cant beat them... , right?
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I AM A MACHINE, and I can know much more.
    ---
    I'm anti abortion, euthanasia, guns, drugs/alcohol, breast-feeding, paternity leave.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Grxl View Post
    I wonder if the Holy 4 piece is worth it. Already now PoMs jump to the same target quite often due to the way it works, and a set bonus that just generates another PoM (with presumably the same stacks as the one it split from) doesn't seem that strong overall, and going back to 5 stacks/cast without T17 isn't helping it.

    Has anyone checked if you can replace 2 slots of the tier set with actually better non-set items?
    The math you need to do in order to check what is best for you is relatively simple.

    T18x4 gives your PoM extra ~22% (on average) healing assuming it's fully used.
    Assuming you drop T17x2 (and don't spec into DI since there's no reason anymore), your PoM would roughly heal for about 9%-12% of your total healing. Then if you add the 4set you get extra 1.9%-2.6% to your overall healing (PoM overheal is small so it's a safe bet). You should also add EoL gain to that (keep in mind the usual ~50% overhealing) to get a more accurate picture.
    That's a number you can compare to the throughput gain from better stats. However, keep in mind that renew is prone to overhealing, so those extra stats don't entirely convert to extra throughput.

    You can also bring up that T18x2 might have lower uptime without T18x4, so that might affect your throughput too. However, I think it's a non issue if you PoM on cd on an active tank as even during low damage periods this should keep the buff up.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Grxl View Post
    I wonder if the Holy 4 piece is worth it. Already now PoMs jump to the same target quite often due to the way it works, and a set bonus that just generates another PoM (with presumably the same stacks as the one it split from)
    Do we know that it actually works this way though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Valancer View Post
    I play as a holy priest and when I ran hfc lfr I noticed after the first boss my heal spell wasn't casting. So I looked at it and it shows that it has a 34.4 min cast time
    Do you have the class trinket? If so, the cast time is correct. /s

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    Do we know that it actually works this way though?
    The other option (only heals nearby target, and doesn't duplicate) is quite crap so it's not worth even looking into .
    In that case you'll see at most 1.5% increased in healing (with the extra EoL), and even that's generous since the extra heals will overheal.

  16. #16
    On PTR it was just like a 10% chance per PoM 'tick' to heal 2 targets instead of 1. So a flat 10% increase to PoM unless I'm making a schoolboy math error.
    Minhee <Converge>, Khadgar EU, redsparowe#2548

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    Well for disc I was thinking since the 2/4set is very penance based that it would have nice interaction with the disc specific trinket but I was surprised not to see it in the bis list by red


    And yeah I did play holy but I switched disc...if you cant beat them... , right?
    The damage reduction just isn't worth the loss of stats from the other trinkets, especially because we don't have a very effective way of keeping it up on a large enough group consistently. I think that MAYBE there could be an argument for it in a VERY niche manner. Perhaps mythic Velhari because of the reduce healing aura, throwing a few PoHs out to reduce damage to the raid, but in general, probably still going to be better served just PWS spamming rather than PoHing and doing very little healing just to apply a short duration damage reduction.

    Basically all 3 priest variations are pretty shit, I don't know what they were thinking, its like they said "lets pick a class and make all 3 specs have a useless trinket!" The disc one might have been some convoluted attempt at nostalgia (which the entire raid is about) because disc used to apply a raid wide 3% damage reduction, but it certainly didn't work out well. If the trinket did what we used to do and was like "Each time you cast PWS on a target, that target takes 7% less damage for 7 seconds" or something like that, it'd warrant consideration.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffel View Post
    The damage reduction just isn't worth the loss of stats from the other trinkets, especially because we don't have a very effective way of keeping it up on a large enough group consistently. I think that MAYBE there could be an argument for it in a VERY niche manner. Perhaps mythic Velhari because of the reduce healing aura, throwing a few PoHs out to reduce damage to the raid, but in general, probably still going to be better served just PWS spamming rather than PoHing and doing very little healing just to apply a short duration damage reduction.

    Basically all 3 priest variations are pretty shit, I don't know what they were thinking, its like they said "lets pick a class and make all 3 specs have a useless trinket!" The disc one might have been some convoluted attempt at nostalgia (which the entire raid is about) because disc used to apply a raid wide 3% damage reduction, but it certainly didn't work out well. If the trinket did what we used to do and was like "Each time you cast PWS on a target, that target takes 7% less damage for 7 seconds" or something like that, it'd warrant consideration.
    thanks for the reply why are they screwing priests over? Granted disc doesn't need the spec trinket to be competitive but the other two specs?
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I AM A MACHINE, and I can know much more.
    ---
    I'm anti abortion, euthanasia, guns, drugs/alcohol, breast-feeding, paternity leave.

  19. #19
    The interview on the 29th with Watcher mentions that whilst they seem happy with class balance and have no class changes planned there will be adjustments to items. he specifically mentions making the class trinkets more powerful for specs where it underwhelming.

    I don't think the trinket is 'that' bad for disc, my biggest issue with it is the selection of spells needed to proc it. I do expect to see a big change for holy though since in it's current state it's beyond worthless.
    Minhee <Converge>, Khadgar EU, redsparowe#2548

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    The BiS list in the first post is without 4piece. Worth noting however that until mythic archimonde loot is available, the 4set probably outweighs offpieces
    Hm, I must be going crazy.
    I could have sworn I saw 4 pieces of T18 on that list...
    Last edited by Grxl; 2015-06-30 at 10:32 AM.
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    WoW Priest | Paladin | Shaman | Death Knight

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