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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post

    In heroes, there is no carry, there is only keyboard smashing rage when you know you could have won that god damn team fight if Jaina would have used her cone of cold first to amplify your WOMBO damage. . . . god damnit Jaina. . . you had one freaking job. . . .
    jaina should never open up a shatter combo with cone.....

    but the "casual" insult, is a joke, there is almost no actual reasoning behind the argument other then lol is better because lol.
    Last edited by Stormspellz; 2015-06-30 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    As someone who's played Dota for years and recently decided to have a look at HotS, I've got to disagree with you here.

    In HotS just having just one good player is enough to ensure that your team never really falls behind in levels. It doesn't matter how well or how poorly everyone else is playing, just one player who knows how to really make the most of the XP available is generally enough to give your entire team a fighting chance at winning. On a couple of the maps one player alone can comfortably get most of the XP from two lanes. Which is absolutely what Blizzard set out to achieve, it means that someone like myself can keep my entire team afloat no matter how bad they're playing, while also not being able to single-handedly win the game. Hats off to them, they really nailed it here.
    Maybe this will change as I play more, I'm only at level 22 at the moment, but that remains to be seen.

    You also don't need quite as much coordination as you're claiming, and most of what you need to know you can communicate through pings. Unlike Dota, theres no pressing need to continuously focus ganks on to just one or two key targets either, and players in duo/tri lanes can easilly leave to roam with little risk - But with reduced rewards too, you can still give yourself an advantage in Hero numbers before an objective, but you can't remove a player from the game entirely by continuously killing them.
    There are also very few abilities, (if any?) in HotS that require your team mates active participation, Dota on the other hand is loaded with them.

    Finally in Dota it usually only appears that one "pro" player is doing all the work because that has been the go-to stratergy for a very long time now. Typically getting a Carry hero fed to the point they're able to win the game, while preventing the other team from doing the same, is a team effort. The carry usually has two supports in his lane to make sure he gets all the farm he can. The supports will usually also be constantly stacking camps for the carry to farm too, along with providing him with wards and a huge safety net from ganks. It looks bad if you're checking just the scoreboard at the end to see a Hero like Phantom Assasin with 20+ kills and everyone else on 2 or 3, but it requires a huge investment from the rest of the team for PA to reach that point.
    Dude.. no. Just no. If you are able to keep your team "afloat" by yourself in terms of XP then the enemy team is horrible an prob worse than yours. People think that you can't deny XP in Hots - but yes, yes you can. So easy to get 3-4 lvl advantage and considering how crucial talents are it's gap most team can't close - comebacks are so so rare lately. Now as much as that one fed jungler/adc in Smite/LoL was annoying, in Hots you have whole team that is ahead in lvls = stats and talents. That's why Hots should not be played solo, you don't have enough impact, but when you duo or better trio queue then you can actually carry and control the match.

  3. #23
    I find this concept of "shining" kind of baffling. If your skill is well above your teammates' you will absolutely "shine" in HoTS. But you don't want that to happen.

    In LoL, only one person gets to be the carry so only that person gets to "shine" right? Note: I don't play it so can't comment.
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  4. #24
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    I am actually confused now, we're complaining about a game that is too team based yet designed for team work, am I right? I enjoy the need of team work, you can't just roll off and 'Solo' your way to happiness, the other team will screw you over with their team.

    And really, people use the term 'casual' way too much that it lost its meaning of what it actually was once.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  5. #25
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    I would agree with you if you talked about BoE.
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  6. #26
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    The game is at least more fun to play as support, and more fun to play with friends.
    Perhaps if you are a solo carry in other mobas you feel a bit let down, but then there are the other mobas where you can solo carry :P

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    As someone with over 100 ranked games in current pre season, I can say without a doubt, one good player cannot do ANYTHING for you in HotS. A good player will simply die last in this game.

    While I didn't play much DOTA outside of WC3. I did play LoL since early beta up to about a year ago, and I can, without a doubt, say: One exceptional player can carry an entire team of horrible players. I would never consider myself "pro" at LoL. While I may have over 1k games played, I never became one of those "exceptional" players. But I sure was carried by a few. =o]

    In heroes, there is no carry, there is only keyboard smashing rage when you know you could have won that god damn team fight if Jaina would have used her cone of cold first to amplify your WOMBO damage. . . . god damnit Jaina. . . you had one freaking job. . . .
    A good Kael'thas post level 16 can definitely carry games. His AOE damage is game changing late game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I find this concept of "shining" kind of baffling. If your skill is well above your teammates' you will absolutely "shine" in HoTS. But you don't want that to happen.

    In LoL, only one person gets to be the carry so only that person gets to "shine" right? Note: I don't play it so can't comment.
    Not really. Unless you think shining only consists of doing damage. Even then, in LOL you'll have at least two the ADC and mid laner that can carry damage. That said, the tank or the support can be pivotal in winning team fights because they land a crucial stun or knockback of some sort.

  8. #28
    Banned Beazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    jaina should never open up a shatter combo with cone.....

    but the "casual" insult, is a joke, there is almost no actual reasoning behind the argument other then lol is better because lol.
    If you have a gaz and butcher you most certianly do open with cone of cold 25% bonus. The entire team will be dead the second gaz ulti sucks them in and the first blizz wave hits them. Death combo. Takes a bit of coordination, but if you pull it off, i have yet to see a team fight lost.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    A good player will simply die last in this game.
    -snip-
    I did play LoL since early beta up to about a year ago, and I can, without a doubt, say: One exceptional player can carry an entire team of horrible players.
    I think we may have very different definitions of "good player" here. A good player would know not to let their team run off and get themselves killed. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm constantly telling my teams to just leave fights alone because we're not going to win right now. Usually because the other team has more people there, or I know for a fact that ETC is coming around behind, just waiting for the chance to land a good Mosh Pit and so on.

    I'm also keeping them busy with ganks, pushing and doing merc camps. My team as a whole benefits from extra map awareness that they themselves might not have developed yet. I know how to play when behind too, effective catch up statergies and all kinds of other little tricks I picked up from Dota which are almost directly transferable to HotS. Having just one good player keeping your team moving forwards is a massive advantage, and it may just supprise you how willing people are to join in with it. A quick glance at my statistics says I've won 87 out of 121 games and have 28 Friends in game currently, so clearly my approach has been working so far.

    A good player also knows when its no longer worth contesting an objective and your time would be better spent doing something else to help your team win. Lets face it, standing around just watching while the other team is smashing your forts with their Terror isn't helping, and waiting around on the off-chance you can get a lucky pick isn't a worthwhile use of your time. You're better off pushing another lane, doing some merc camps or just doing anything other than standing around being a spectator. At worst, you're getting your team extra XP and can get back in time to defend when their Terror ends. At best you force some of the other team to come deal with you, meaning you can take advantage of them being split up to force a fight where you have the numbers advantage.
    This is how I've been consistently getting 20-25k XP throughout a normal length match. I'm always getting XP from something, and I'm always there when the rest of my team needs me.

    As for LoL, every time I've seen a Zed, Riven or Vayne demolishing the other team theres always been Cho'gath, Thresh or Alistar shutting down any kill attempts on them. And they usually got fed in the first place because they had help from their jungler to snowball them out of control. I didn't play LoL for very long, it was for a bet with some friends at work who claimed getting passed Silver was impossible, but I did finish last season in Plat 5, (after my friends decided to welch on paying up claiming it was just luck when I hit Gold, then decided they'd pay up double if I could get to Plat). Maybe its different at the higher and lower ends of the skill spectrum, but my experience has largely been that while it offers players a chance to really stand out, it takes a team effort to give that chance. And unusually for a moba offers their team mates a chance to stand out with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    If you are able to keep your team "afloat" by yourself in terms of XP then the enemy team is horrible an prob worse than yours.
    Which is rather the point I was making. It only takes one person with know-how and a little bit of leadership to make the other team "probably worse than yours" in your average Quick Match.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    so clearly my approach has been working so far.
    When you play Quickmatch, there are thousands of approaches that may work. As a moba player, you know this.

    You should also know that when you get into level 10 to 1 in Ranked ~ 99% of your quick match strats/approaches are laughably stompable. And will be stomped. Thats not me trying to sound condescending, thats just the nature of these types of games.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    One more thing about this "team-based" topic.

    Hots is simply unforgiving when played in QM without a premade. If your team is all random and you are up against premade of 3 - you have close to zero chances of winning as long as they are at least "average". The advantage of well coordinated team grows very fast in Hots, much faster than in other mobas. If I have a premade of 3 in Smite, I can't be sure that I'm going to win, even when enemy team has no premade groups at all, but in Hots if I queue in 3 I know that the only way we are going to loose is if we get against us other premade of 3 that is better than us. It is NOT possible for us to loose against randoms when you queue as 3 - the power of controlling the objectives and XP flow in highly coordinated manner out weights any individual skill level of other random team.

    What keeps in Hots are the full premade games 5v5. Holy shit, it's really fun and often I find myself enjoying team fights much more than in other mobas. But for people who can't queue with 4 friends for ranked.. I doubt they have similar positive experiences as I do.

    Kinda funny.. casual mode (QM) of a casual game is.. not that casual after all .

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Vetly View Post
    Hey guys, I'm a LoL player, and I wanted to try HOTS for something new. I've played it for some hours and trying really to like it. Problem is, it's so team based that players don't "shine out" and you can't really be gamechanging. I know it's pros and cons, but LoL made me motivated because I could actually carry a game. Sometimes in HOTS I feel it gets too casual?
    LOL is a team based game.

    If 4 of the 5 players decide to sit in the base and not play, you will not win no matter how good you are. You need your team to be doing something to help all five of you get the win. Some people on the team have different strengths and weaknesses.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    Not really. Unless you think shining only consists of doing damage. Even then, in LOL you'll have at least two the ADC and mid laner that can carry damage. That said, the tank or the support can be pivotal in winning team fights because they land a crucial stun or knockback of some sort.
    But that's at least as true, if not more, in HoTS. Everyone has an equal chance to make an impact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    Hots is simply unforgiving when played in QM without a premade. If your team is all random and you are up against premade of 3 - you have close to zero chances of winning as long as they are at least "average".
    The other team is just as likely to be full of wall-licking shitlords as yours is though :P

    I had something like 12 back to back wins as Murky in QM a few weeks ago.
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  14. #34
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    I think HotS might be too team based, the deathball meta really annoys me, along with having dedicated healers in the game (malf, lili, rehgar) who can just top someone (or their whole team in rehgar's case) off in a few seconds. The 'laning phase' doesn't really exist. You can sit at your towers and wait, harassing a bit and killing the minion wave from safety and not actually lose any thing. Meanwhile the objective starts up and team fights start at level 6.

    I also dislike how, no matter how good you are, the 0/32 nova who 'roams' into the enemy base looking to 1v1 gives them a large XP advantage. Then the Gazlowe that sits top all day lets you 5v4 at the objective because 'lol im specialist'.
    In other MOBA games if you do well as a player, you can make a huge difference. If you're bad, you're a liability. Heroes is, as stated above 'more casual' but that's its selling point. There's no items, no wards, no jungling, no CSing, in lane taking harass has very little consequences (especially if you have a healer) it's perfect to just jump into and have a laugh. And it's good for that, and I also love playing all the Blizzard characters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I find this concept of "shining" kind of baffling. If your skill is well above your teammates' you will absolutely "shine" in HoTS. But you don't want that to happen.

    In LoL, only one person gets to be the carry so only that person gets to "shine" right? Note: I don't play it so can't comment.
    Not really, normally you play AP carry mid, AD carry bottom, so there's 2 carries. Plenty of jungles can carry very hard if they snowball like Nidalee for example, or even a top laner like Riven can pretty much shred a whole team in seconds if she snowballs. Pretty much every role can carry, except support is harder. Although a support Nautilus with Rod of Ages as his first item due to being so fed does some scary damage + cc.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Vetly View Post
    Hey guys, I'm a LoL player, and I wanted to try HOTS for something new. I've played it for some hours and trying really to like it. Problem is, it's so team based that players don't "shine out" and you can't really be gamechanging. I know it's pros and cons, but LoL made me motivated because I could actually carry a game. Sometimes in HOTS I feel it gets too casual?
    i think that's the point of a true MOBA IMO
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