Sub Opener with Tier 18 4pc

[RennRogue]

What is the best opener right now to take advantage of the vanish buff? I have been doing the same as Pyllerox

Pot>prem>snd>Ambush>Vanish>SR>Rupture>Dance>spam

I feel like this is not the best though due to you getting less amb and evis out of the vanish buff

[Eileana]

Premedation -8sec > SnD/Potion -2sec > Vanish > Shadow Reflection > Rupture > Shadow Dance > Ambush > Herp Derp

actions.precombat+=/premeditation,if=!talent.marked_for_death.enabled
actions.precombat+=/slice_and_dice
...
actions.opener_ant=Vanish,if=time<1
actions.opener_ant+=/shadow_reflection,if=time<1
actions.opener_ant+=/rupture,if=time<1
actions.opener_ant+=/shadow_dance

[RennRogue]

With subterfuge or Shadow focus? Pyllero uses shadow focus

[Deleted]

With subterfuge or Shadow focus? Pyllero uses shadow focus

go subterfuge friend

[Redknot]

I don't get it.
All the top rogues are using Shadow Focus, yet Shadowcraft insists on Subterfuge as well as theorycrafters.

What am I missing?

[Lorentz]

I don't get it.
All the top rogues are using Shadow Focus, yet Shadowcraft insists on Subterfuge as well as theorycrafters.

What am I missing?

Because they don't use Vanish glyph

[Redknot]

Is it a dps increase to do so?

Was always under the assumption vanish glyph + subt was the best way. Is there a time when this is not the case?

[giantgnome]

Is it a dps increase to do so?

Was always under the assumption vanish glyph + subt was the best way. Is there a time when this is not the case?

The reason we used subtlrefuge with vanish glyph was to maximize the find weakness uptime. But with the 2pc set bonus bursting as much abilitys in that phase might be more dps. That's the only reason I can imagine picking shafow focus over subtlrefuge + glyph of vanish

[shaithis]

They are probably taking Feint glyph over Vanish for progression. Subterfuge is worthless without Vanish glyph, but a DPS increase otherwise.

[Lasion]

The reason why I believe it is, personally, is because of the t18 4p making vanish have such a low cd anyway. But I only relatively recently changed to rogue so I could be wrong

[KiwifruitOCE]

The reason why I believe it is, personally, is because of the t18 4p making vanish have such a low cd anyway. But I only relatively recently changed to rogue so I could be wrong

I would hazard a guess that it is because you are often using vanish when you are using shadow dance.

If you shadow dance and vanish at the same time, you get no benefit from subterfuge + vanish glyph, because you can already use ambush due to using shadow dance. However, with shadow focus, you get one ambush that costs almost no energy during your dance. This is also why pyllerox uses ambush > rupture on pull, instead of just rupturing after vanish.

Subterfuge + vanish glyph was only a slight increase over shadow focus I believe. If some of your vanishes are receiving no benefit from subterfuge, then shadow focus probably pulls ahead.

[T18Z]

Combine subterfuge with the fact our class trinket improves the damage our of ambushes by 70-90%, I'm not sure why you would take shadow focus when it means you miss out on 2 ambushes every vanish. Furthermore subterfurge creates pretty heft burst when you are able to vanish > ambush > ambush > ambush during your soul capacitor proc. Lastly, as someone has stated in a previous thread, vanish instantly grants 5 combo points, meaning your premeditation will be useless during every vanish that isn't combined with shadow dance because it doesn't work with anticipation.

I don't see how less find weakness uptime, fewer empowered class trinket ambushes, less combo points and less burst during soul capacitor + vanish makes shadow focus better, at all. Shadowcraft puts it at a 2.7k dps loss switching to SF. Fuck. That.

[Redknot]

But we wouldn't benefit from subt if we are using vanish every dance.

I don't have 4pc yet, but I would think shadow focus would pull ahead if vanish Would be off CD every SD. I'll look at logs to see how often it is up.

[Virium]

Vanishing during Shadow Dance with Shadow Focus doesn't discount even a single Ambush, it's not a better talent than Subterfuge with Glyph of Vanish.

[Smaxy]

But we wouldn't benefit from subt if we are using vanish every dance.

I don't have 4pc yet, but I would think shadow focus would pull ahead if vanish Would be off CD every SD. I'll look at logs to see how often it is up.

I'll save you the time. Dps concerned, subterfuge is superior all the time and has been since highmaul. The nature of the class trinket and t18 bonuses as well as increase in stats further compounds this.


Any top rogue using shadow focus is using it due to not being able to take glyph of vanish due to using a survivalability glyph, likely glyph of feint

[KiwifruitOCE]

Vanishing during Shadow Dance with Shadow Focus doesn't discount even a single Ambush, it's not a better talent than Subterfuge with Glyph of Vanish.

My guess was wrong then. I would consider it a bug that shadow dance overrides shadow focus, though.

[Deleted]

i use 2 openers, dependant on what trinket im using. Soul Kappa isnt ideal for every fight so i have been swapping it out. With kappa i vanish at 0 reflection rupture dance.... and without i ambush ambush reflection rupture vanish dance. 1st is so i dont instant procc my soul kappa before ive applied my bleeds to increase the damage stored and otherwise it is to maximise the line up with dance and 2pc buff.

[Redknot]

i use 2 openers, dependant on what trinket im using. Soul Kappa isnt ideal for every fight so i have been swapping it out. With kappa i vanish at 0 reflection rupture dance.... and without i ambush ambush reflection rupture vanish dance. 1st is so i dont instant procc my soul kappa before ive applied my bleeds to increase the damage stored and otherwise it is to maximise the line up with dance and 2pc buff.

So you would essentially use opener #2 with soul cap as to wait for proc before going into SR + Rupture?

[KiwifruitOCE]

Vanishing during Shadow Dance with Shadow Focus doesn't discount even a single Ambush, it's not a better talent than Subterfuge with Glyph of Vanish.

I just tested this myself, vanishing during shadow dance makes your shadow focus ambush free, so perhaps this is why some top rogues are opting for shadow focus, as well as the survivability gains you can get from not having to use vanish glyph.

[shaithis]

I just tested this myself, vanishing during shadow dance makes your shadow focus ambush free, so perhaps this is why some top rogues are opting for shadow focus, as well as the survivability gains you can get from not having to use vanish glyph.

Confused about this, how does it make the ambush free? Also I believe you are supposed to vanish before dance, not during.