What if Vol'jin Killed Garrosh Hellscream?

[Zulkhan]

I mean, in terms of things not-military, things were okay.

Surely they were at the beginning. Of course they weren't at the end. Well, guess why.

[Wildberry]

Surely they were at the beginning. Of course they weren't at the end. Well, guess why.

I mean, is it still fair game to blame those Northerners/Southerners depending on where you live in Italy?

[Zulkhan]

See, the trick to the Nemesis quests, is just to grab a friend and power level multiple underplayed races and then take turns farming each other.

It's long, tedious and boring, but less so on all fronts than actually hunting Pandas in (Tr)Ashran.

Yeah I know the trick but as you said, is long, tedious and boring. Considered I never spent lot of time on my Alliance toon, a good "fuck it" worked better.

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I mean, is it still fair game to blame those Northerners/Southerners depending on where you live in Italy?

Oh maybe you misunderstood me. I don't care to blame a single soul about this topic. It's just obvious from all historical records that joining German's happy road of European conquest was a terrible idea, or at least done with awful timing, especially if we consider the kind of detrimental deals our beloved M. had to go through to gain the support he needed.

Oh and I'm an "half-breed" so to speak, but I live in the North. And honestly, proudly so.

[Kralljin]

A day in the life of Warchief Wildberry:

-Kick out Trolls
-Kick out Forsaken
-Reinvest in a massive rearmament
-Claim Orcish 'Living Space.'

Could it be that you just lost a world war a few years ago?

[Wildberry]

Yeah I know the trick but as you said, is long, tedious and boring. Considered I never spent lot of time on my Alliance toon, a good "fuck it" worked better.

Fair enough. I never bothered with the Nemesis stuff on my Alliance toon, thankfully.

Oh maybe you misunderstood me. I don't care to blame a single soul about this topic. It's just obvious from all historical records that joining German's happy road of European conquest was a terrible idea, or at least done with awful timing, especially if we consider the kind of detrimental deals our beloved M. had to go through to gain the support he needed.

Oh, it was more so a joke aimed at Italy's North/South divide that not even good old Benny-toe could bridge. But yeah, I agree, it wasn't a good idea to bring Italy into the war. At least they're not the only country that shouldn't have joined, I suppose.

Oh and I'm an "half-breed" so to speak, but I live in the North. And honestly, proudly so.

Fair enough, I've heard the North is quite a bit nicer.

Could it be that you just lost a world war a few years ago?

Well, the best thing to do after losing a world war, is to start a bigger one.

[Aeula]

Garrosh would have to have been beaten to a pulp by us and then Varian would have to give him permission first.

Vol'jin is too weak and cowardly to kill Garrosh.

[Zulkhan]

Fair enough. I never bothered with the Nemesis stuff on my Alliance toon, thankfully

The amusing thing is that I created a Gladiator Sanctum on the Alliance toon just to stalk Horde Pandas, I was really curious to see the average amount of Pandaren players on the EU-servers Horde side. Well, I realized that "few" is a very big understatement. Realized that, I just replaced the GS with something else.

Oh, it was more so a joke aimed at Italy's North/South divide

Fair enough, I've heard the North is quite a bit nicer

I'll be honest, I wasn't 100% sure was a good idea writes "proudly so". I want to avoid bias and prejudices, but I had enough experience in the South to know how some tend to be hypersensitive on this topic, and everything is seen as a personal attack and offense to these people. Admittedly, we haven't being "nice" with them until some decade ago, so I somewhat understand from where they come from.

But I cannot deny that I would never exchange my place here with there. It's like another world, too different mentalities as a whole.

[sam86]

Both the last and current warchief are assholes who needed luck and other people to do anything.

The horde is so screwed ...

At least beg'jin isn't beating everyone for his please...
the problem he is beating no one at all, even ppl he should beat, he beg them instead, so either someone who beat everyone, or someone who beg anyone

Ok we are screwed

[Irian]

Knowing what I know now, I would've praised him as my new Warchief - both as Alliance and Horde - for saving us from a god awful time travel expansion.

Serious answer: Conflict likely would've broken out between Alliance and Horde, unless he did it before Varian arrived. Then Varian would've likely shrugged, made his speech and awkwardly semi-triumphantly walked out of Orgrimmar like he did before.

In all honesty, I wish Vol'jin had been involved in the fight or ending cinematic a little more, just to give the whole rivalry some conclusion. I feel like it's such a massive shame that they didn't give his comment of "piercing his black heart" a bit of situational irony by causing Vol'jin to destroy the Heart of Y'shaarj, a literal black heart.

[Darth-Piekus]

Nobody would really care if Garrosh died there considering Thrall was ready to finish him and noone apart from Varian tried to stop him.

[Deleted]

If only Vol'jn could have kept his rebellious urges inside his pants until Garrosh wiped out the Alliance.

Exactly +1

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No I mean he's gonna get resurrected by Deathwing or something.

But Thrall will be like "U choose ur own destiny m8" and then oneshot him with megaultralightninglavademonsoul, and then Metzen will appear and shit on Deathwing's face.

Don't mind me I'm just being stupid XD.

[Mehrunes]

He couldn't, Kor'kron started raiding Sen'jin village in 5.3. He had to retaliate. Besides Horde alone was not able to stop Garrosh with him having all the things he had inside of Orgrimmar.

Perhaps if the Kor'kron trying to enforce his martial law on the part of the Horde with traitorous sentiments didn't miraculously turn up dead, he wouldn't raid Sen'jin village. Just a hunch.

He is a shadow hunter after monk training. Shadow hunters are master of combat in melee ranged and they also are good at voodoo magics. So I think he would have a chance, specially when Thrall also had them, .. and Cairne... and quilboars...

Yet a random Orc nobody left him licking his wounds for few months.

You focus excessively on raw muscular strength like it counts for everything. This would be true in a competition in which you have to lift loads, but in a duel skill and experience is what really matters. Cairne didn't slap Garrosh's ass because he had bigger muscles, he did because he had greater experience and good sense in handle the fight, where Garrosh just acted out of fury and nothing else. This is what let him to deliver some solid and hurtful blows against Garrosh where Garrosh couldn't do nothing but scratch Cairne's chest.

In a 1v1 situation what matters is deliver a mortal blow and avoid receiving one. The end. In that scenario, agility and dexterity are valuable as much as raw strength. Plus, Trolls can quickly recover from any non-lethal wound, which itself gives a notable advantage.

Moron'zhu spent his life on training his combat skills and honing his xenophobia in case outsiders appeared in Pandaria after 10 thousands years (well, at least one of them proved to be useful). Garrosh mopped the floor with him. Vol'jin's monk training is already pretty useless then, considering he had very little compared to Moron'zhu. And Garrosh broke Cairne's weapon. Even without the poison, it would be rather hard to continue fighting with half of a weapon in a duel where you can use only one (i.e. no replacements).

The dialog was optional mind you, and it was Alliance member who was the moron and begin all the stupid exchange of lines. This optional line was posted after alliance players QQed that Vol'Jin was mean to them.

Only the part put in game matters. So what that Vol'jin wasn't begging on the PTR? He did in actual 5.3.

Green Jesus wouldn't allow that.

Because Green Jesus.

Yeah, he would most likely shoot the arrow down with his laser sight before it struck. Finally reaching the next step on his evolution into Superman.

Garrosh was able to defeat Taran Zhu thanks to a couple of very fortunate/favorable circumstances, not only the unusual place in which they fought (never Taran Zhu's feet would have planted itself in standard ground like it did in the bridge's wood) but also to Garrosh exploiting the equivalent of a second weapon (the iron chain) to grab the pandaren's neck and pull him right onto his weapon. This last thing alone would have invalidated even the most "permissive" of the Mak'goras.

For the rest, Taran Zhu was capable to disarm Garrosh, a warrior, in 8-10 seconds of fighting.

And Garrosh, a warrior, was able to beat the shit out of him even without that weapon. Besides, monks can walk on water, as seen in that very fight. They train to hone their balance, among other things. They should have the reflexes to avoid a chain attack and the grace not to get their feet stuck in anything. But even their leader did not.

If the one occurring between them was a Mak'gora of any sort, none of the circumstances that favored Garrosh's victory could have presented themselves. No fight on a wooded bridge, not exploitable "secondary weapons" of any sort. And Taran Zhu disarming a hardened warrior (the kind of combatant that, unlike a monk, utterly relies on his weapon to fight and is pretty useless without) says a lot about who was superior on mere martial skill.

Ehh, the rules of Mak'gora don't really specify the location. It could be on a bridge.

This would be very true if the "ground" was the only thing that mattered. Garrosh exploited a fortunate situation and gained the upper-hand with a second weapon, and not just another melee weapon but the equivalent a long iron whip, which let him to strangulate the pandaren from afar and then pull him right onto the edge of Gorehowl. That didn't require skills of adaptation but a degree of smartness, Taran Zhu couldn't do the same for obvious reasons and does little to sustain the idea that Garrosh is stronger or more skilled than Taran Zhu.

A situation caused by Moron'zhu. He lacked even the foresight of "hmm, if I miss, the impact of my foot could pierce the plank". And considering how far he was from Garrosh, he had plenty of time to, I dunno, duck. But I guess foresight and ducking aren't a part of Monk training.

I think some people are overestimating Garrosh a lot. Garrosh survived so far due to pure luck and because the plot demanded it so he could start the Draenor Expansion. In reality he is weak compared to the other characters having only strength to rely to. He enrages easily and makes mistakes quickly, he is a noob in terms of gladiator combat experience and he is slow. Cairne could kill him, Varian could kill him, Taran Zhu could kill him, any character with any type of spellcasting abilities can destroy him in mere seconds and yes he is weak compared to a Shadow Hunter if what I hear about their powers is true.

On the other hand, the only reason why Vol'jin survived is "Lel, Darkspear never die".

Friendly you haven't read my whole post at all cause if you did you would have seen that the plot demanded Garrosh to Live up until Nagrand for Thrall to finish the job. What you say is irrelevant. Garrosh survived because of the plot and gameplay (you know the one that overlaps the normal story many times) but I suppose you choose again to read what you really want. It doesn't matter in the end. Garrosh is dead and both Hordes he made failed miserably. If you want an easy opponent let a Hellscream make one for you.

How was a decision to make him survive so that Thrall could kill him a "because of gameplay" situation? Your own arguments for your theory don't even match that theory. And if Garrosh survived because of plot, then the plot is that... Garrosh survived. I.e. the plot is that Garrosh is good enough to at least not die in combat.

Arashi when someone doesn't want to hear a different opinion with facts you just simply put him on the list and be done with it. It doesn't matter if you have facts or not if the other is not willing to listen. Are you willing to have a serious conversation for once in your life in one thread at all or are you going to be the next? I am ready to accept a good fact and have a good conversation anytime but not baseless attacks and headfanon.

Oh man, it sure was worth it to come back to Lore forums. Best laugh of the month.

Their singular troops are disciplined and super-trained, but it's pretty pointless when their numbers are so damn thin.

Yet, there's a bajillion Mantid on the other side of the wall. And they aren't their only enemy.

Yeah but what they did mostly? Repel bugs back into the other side of the wall. They never suffered massive invasions and were clueless as fuck how to handle one.

For the rest Pandaren and Shado-Pan in particular proved to be prideful douchebags to an extent. They definitely deserved a lesson of humility.

Swarms weren't massive invasions? I'm pretty sure they have bigger army than whatever leftovers of the Troll empires Zul managed to scavenge.

Ok I take it back that one. I mentioned gameplay. You are right on that one but my comment still stands. You cannot sound surprised because the developers had to make lore follow the gameplay. After all Gameplay trumps lore.

But how is a story direction "gameplay"? What "gameplay" happened that Garrosh survived his Mak'gora with Cairne, which happened in a book, or any other situation you have mentioned?

Both the last and current warchief are assholes who needed luck and other people to do anything.

The horde is so screwed ...

On the other hand, Basic Campfire only needs the warmth in the hearts of its people to burn brightly for eternity.

[Kralljin]

Yet a random Orc nobody left him licking his wounds for few months.

When those wounds are filled with poison made to kill a troll, yeah, that takes time.

[Zulkhan]

Moron'zhu spent his life on training his combat skills and honing his xenophobia in case outsiders appeared in Pandaria after 10 thousands years (well, at least one of them proved to be useful). Garrosh mopped the floor with him. Vol'jin's monk training is already pretty useless then, considering he had very little compared to Moron'zhu. And Garrosh broke Cairne's weapon. Even without the poison, it would be rather hard to continue fighting with half of a weapon in a duel where you can use only one (i.e. no replacements).

Except the monk training was just an addition to what Vol'jin already knew, where being a Monk is the only thing Taran Zhu was good at, even if he was top tier on that.

About Cairne, he had far more chances to bring the score at home even with the broken spear, for the simple fact that Garrosh was constantly beaten for the entire fight and lost most of his lucidity, where Cairne was perfectly focused and suffered a mere scratch on the chest (the one that injected the poison on his body though) The very blow that broke Cairne's spear and caused the scratch in question came out of blind fury and desperation from Garrosh due to him pretty much doing nothing but suffering Cairne's assault until that moment.
Garrosh shown any sign of retrieved vigor only when he saw Cairne crippled, kneeling on the floor and apparently unable to recover for whatever reason he had no lucidity to figure out or comprehend, he just realized it was a golden chance to strike and delivered the fatal blow.

And Garrosh, a warrior, was able to beat the shit out of him even without that weapon. Besides, monks can walk on water, as seen in that very fight. They train to hone their balance, among other things. They should have the reflexes to avoid a chain attack and the grace not to get their feet stuck in anything. But even their leader did not.

Because Taran Zhu lowered his guard like a dumbass giving his back to Garrosh, which gave him all the time to deliver a massive punch on his face. However, the punch in question had little role in the actual and ultimate beating.

He could not avoid that chain attack because the attack in question came from behind and Taran Zhu was stuck there. About the "feet stucking" I say that's karma or something really, it was just bad luck. If anything you can praise Garrosh for catching that golden chance (like he made with Cairne, in a sense) and exploit the best out of those few seconds Taran Zhu was unable to properly move.

Ehh, the rules of Mak'gora don't really specify the location. It could be on a bridge.

Yeah but let's just say that of all places choosing a wooden bridge fabricated in that way would be statement that someone wants to gain some advantage out of it in some way, it's just an improbable case. Standard Mak'gora would take place in wide arenas now days and for the "improvised" ones a wide area in general would be chosen as well, like shown in the Thrall vs Garrosh confrontation in Nagrand.

A situation caused by Moron'zhu. He lacked even the foresight of "hmm, if I miss, the impact of my foot could pierce the plank". And considering how far he was from Garrosh, he had plenty of time to, I dunno, duck. But I guess foresight and ducking aren't a part of Monk training.

Again I say it was simply bad luck, and the reason I say this is because there were more chances that most of the wood would have "exploded" around the zone hit by that massive flying kick, instead enough of it remained just to grip his feet there.

"Duck" would have implied see what was coming, and Garrosh's attack arrived from behind, let alone that of all attacks an iron chain enveloping your neck was definitely one of the hardest attacks to predict. Garrosh ran to grasp his weapon and the chain during the very few moments Taran Zhu tried to get the feet out of the bridge, and used the chain like a whip in the precious moment Taran Zhu was physically unable to see it coming.

Yet, there's a bajillion Mantid on the other side of the wall. And they aren't their only enemy.

But the Mantid are the closest thing to a "war" the Pandaren kept facing from the times of the fallen Mogu Empire. Yet it wasn't much of a real war in the first place. "Other side of the wall" is the key statement.

Swarms weren't massive invasions? I'm pretty sure they have bigger army than whatever leftovers of the Troll empires Zul managed to scavenge.

While a swarm of locusts is indeed more numerous, there's a valuable difference between facing an organized enemy invading your land, sacking your homes and spreading around and one who just slam against your massive wall, while you stay behind and repel these forces away to prevent them from jumping beyond said wall. While the second requires a degree of organization, the first requires actual military/tactical experience. And Taran Zhu made it very blatant how on that field he had no real competence, and pointed out how the minuscule Shado-Pan numbers would have never been capable to handle a similar situation.

Plus, we should never forget that the Mantid never fought with the intent to literally invade Pandaren lands, they just wanted to cull the weak out of their ranks. It would be little surprise if the body count of every single Monk was around the tens or even hundreds of Mantid.

[Mehrunes]

Except the monk training was just an addition to what Vol'jin already knew, where being a Monk is the only thing Taran Zhu was good at, even if he was top tier on that.

As I said, it negates Vol'jin's Monk training creating an advantage, not Vol'jin's skills altogether. Besides, he didn't notice an obvious trap and was too busy whining to the very end about Horde being da family or some shit, that the Kor'kron guy was able to just walk in front of him and shiv him in the neck while looking him in his traitorous eyes. The moment Garrosh tries some underhanded shit in 1v1 combat against Vol'jin, Vol'jin's lack of awareness would create an opening for Garrosh.

About Cairne, he had far more chances to bring the score at home even with the broken spear, for the simple fact that Garrosh was constantly beaten for the entire fight and lost most of his lucidity, where Cairne was perfectly focused and suffered a mere scratch on the chest (the one that injected the poison on his body though) The very blow that broke Cairne's spear and caused the scratch in question came out of blind fury and desperation from Garrosh due to him pretty much doing nothing but suffering Cairne's assault until that moment.
Garrosh shown any sign of retrieved vigor only when he saw Cairne crippled, kneeling on the floor and apparently unable to recover for whatever reason he had no lucidity to figure out or comprehend, he just realized it was a golden chance to strike and delivered the fatal blow.

But how? Broken spear means he loses his main advantage of reach. And strength of attacks, since you can't really hold half of a spear with both hands. It could very easily lead to Garrosh's renewed vigor anyway, since it gave him a chance to win.

Because Taran Zhu lowered his guard like a dumbass giving his back to Garrosh, which gave him all the time to deliver a massive punch on his face. However, the punch in question had little role in the actual and ultimate beating.

He still got beaten a bit, despite Monks focusing on hand to hand combat quite a bit. Garrosh getting disarmed should have given an advantage as a Monk. It didn't.

He could not avoid that chain attack because the attack in question came from behind and Taran Zhu was stuck there. About the "feet stucking" I say that's karma or something really, it was just bad luck. If anything you can praise Garrosh for catching that golden chance (like he made with Cairne, in a sense) and exploit the best out of those few seconds Taran Zhu was unable to properly move.

Ah, my bad, been a while since I've seen the cinematic. But it only adds to Moron'zhu's lack of foresight then. He should have anticipated his position in case of a dodge and the possibility of breaking the planks. Foresight is important in combat. So is using an opening. Garrosh getting disarmed was an opening that went unused. Moron'zhu getting stuck was one that was used to its full potential. Another thing that played a role was area awareness. All in all, Moron'zhu got outplayed.

Yeah but let's just say that of all places choosing a wooden bridge fabricated in that way would be statement that someone wants to gain some advantage out of it in some way, it's just an improbable case. Standard Mak'gora would take place in wide arenas now days and for the "improvised" ones a wide area in general would be chosen as well, like shown in the Thrall vs Garrosh confrontation in Nagrand.

But unless the bridge is fabricated in a specific way and only one of the parties to Mak'gora knows about it, they have equal standing. And Thrall vs Garrosh wasn't a Mak'gora.

Again I say it was simply bad luck, and the reason I say this is because there were more chances that most of the wood would have "exploded" around the zone hit by that massive flying kick, instead enough of it remained just to grip his feet there.

More wood exploding would still make him lose balance or even fall, giving Garrosh an advantage nonetheless.

But the Mantid are the closest thing to a "war" the Pandaren kept facing from the times of the fallen Mogu Empire. Yet it wasn't much of a real war in the first place. "Other side of the wall" is the key statement. And Taran Zhu made it very blatant how on that field he had no real competence, and pointed out how the minuscule Shado-Pan numbers would have never been capable to handle a similar situation.

There were still Yaungol. And Sauroks. And occasional Mogu. Besides, Pandaren had outposts beyond the wall.

While a swarm of locusts is indeed more numerous, there's a valuable difference between facing an organized enemy invading your land, sacking your homes and spreading around and one who just slam against your massive wall, while you stay behind and repel these forces away to prevent them from jumping beyond said wall. While the second requires a degree of organization, the first requires actual military/tactical experience.

There's no reason to believe Mantid didn't get past the wall and attack the villages like they did in the Valley of the Four Winds in previous swarms. The only known difference in this swarm was that it was early. And again, Shado-Pan had outposts beyond the wall and other enemies than the Mantid.

Plus, we should never forget that the Mantid never fought with the intent to literally invade Pandaren lands, they just wanted to cull the weak out of their ranks. It would be little surprise if the body count of every single Monk was around the tens or even hundreds of Mantid.

But they still killed everything they got their mandibles on, judging by the bragging of the Paragons.

[sam86]

When those wounds are filled with poison made to kill a troll, yeah, that takes time.

He is still nobody, who pwned the supposed big ass shadow hunter, it shows how weak he can be
Making intimidating image is - imo - most important thing for a warchief in horde, and beg'jin doesn't have it