Quick question for Republicans that support the confederate flag

[Ragedaug]

It's more of a southern thing than a Republican thing. You won't see a native northerner (Rep or Dem) flying the Stars and Bars, and you'll see both Rep and Dem southerners who support that symbol.

While I do associate the Confederacy with slavery, I don't think folks flying the Stars and Bars today are aiming at reestablishing slavery. That said, it still conjures bad mental imagery when you think about every thing it stood for.

For me, however, the bigger issue is that the Stars and Bars are "Anti-American". I fully support any State's right to secede from the Union (controversial as that may be), but I don't think you can claim you are proud to be in the USA, while displaying or championing a Confederate banner. "Hate" may be a strong word to use, but there has to be a good deal of emotion behind the decision to secede, so I don't think it's much of stretch to say that anyone who flies and champions a Confederate Banner is saying, "I hate the U.S. and wish my State could no longer be a part of it". And while I have stated I support anyone's right to do that, I also can admit that I don't care to have them in my country, and they are not someone I would choose to associate with.

[NYC17]

No, you are trying to impose a meaning onto me.

Actually, I do not think any US government entity should fly any flag that is not an official flag of itself or a superior entity outside of places of historical importance where said flag is part of history (i.e. city flag, state flag, US flag are the only flags a US city should fly in an official manner).

I had nothing to do with hijacking your oh-so-wonderful image of "culture". You were too lazy, uninterested, or unambitious to safeguard your precious flag of southerness. Talk about imposing...

Own it.

[Hammerfest]

And to many others it represents exactly what the confederacy said they stood for.

Yeah, I tend to look at this as a fight over what the flag stands for. Some say racism, others say regional pride. I kinda tend to think both are bad, personally.

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I think people are objecting to the government itself hoisting the confederate flag not actual citizens. Honestly I don't think the government itself should use the flag. Citizens using it and or purchasing it? Who cares really.

Same here.

[Deleted]

How many Nazi references have been used up until now?

Yeah, I tend to look at this as a fight over what the flag stands for. Some say racism, others say regional pride. I kinda tend to think both are bad, personally.

In Belgium we had something like this aswell, the Flemish flag used to be very popular around here, but after a racist rightwing party basicly hijacked the flag as their party symbol it took 10-15 years until the racist stigma around the flag was gone.

The flag still is popular to this day, but even as a proud Flemish the flag still gives me a double feeling.

[Raeph]

Quick question and I'm looking for a real answer. I've posted asked this question about 10 times on various forums/facebook articles and have never gotten a real response.

The question is:

If the Confederate flag is the flag of the those that wanted to secede, which is illegal in the Constitution, then why do you support it?

I ask this question because 90% of Republicans I know are VERY protective of the Constitution (2nd amendment rights, freedom of religion, etc) yet for the Confederate flag which represents an illegal action in the constitution, why are they ok with it?

Honest question, and looking forward to hear some REAL non-trolling answers.

I consider it a potentially negative symbol, a reminder of a number of mistakes in our countries history. Because of that it should be in the public space for us to engage with and condemn, constantly, so that we as a country don't forget those errors.

Additionally there is a minority who consider it a positive symbol; they should be able to defend the flags symbolism in the pubic space as well.

I personally fear that with symbols with multiple meanings they will be whitewashed out of the public space, which will prevent us as a culture from engaging with the idea's represented by those symbols.

One group says that it represents slavery and Jim Crow laws. One group says it represents southern heritage.

Who is right? A Flag, by definition, is a symbol with a subjective meaning behind it. They are both right. Lets engage as a culture over those subjective meanings, rather than get rid of the symbol.

Or we can just waste time and remove the flag and not work and engage with cultural issues and disagreements.

[Reeve]

Yep. I feel the same way about Che Guevara t-shirts.

Agreed. Che was not a cool dude.

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Because I refuse to let someone else dictate what a symbol means to me? That's EXACTLY why they can pucker up.

You're free to determine what the symbol means to you, but don't be surprised when others don't share your view. You can think that a Nazi Swastika means peace and harmony, but people will still think you're a bigot if you wear one on your sleeve.

[Shibito]

Agreed. Che was not a cool dude.

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Acually the original swaztika goes the other direction so its possible to see the difference on them.



You're free to determine what the symbol means to you, but don't be surprised when others don't share your view. You can think that a Nazi Swastika means peace and harmony, but people will still think you're a bigot if you wear one on your sleeve.

Acually the original swaztika goes the other direction so its possible to see the difference on them.

Also why is noone waving the british flag in the states? Would people enrage over that?

[ItachiZaku]

Agreed on this point. Still a valid question though. In the end, like every symbol, everyone just makes an interpretation to fit their personal belief.

[Lumineus]

Acually the original swaztika goes the other direction so its possible to see the difference on them.

The original swastika dates back to the origins of written language and is still used as the symbol for the character 'ban' in Japanese, a language which itself is older than dirt, and looks just like the Nazi version. The manji, as it is also called, can be drawn both ways and was used by a number of different cultures and religions over the ages. The arms of the Nazi swastika go in exactly the same direction as the Hindu, Tibetan, and yes, even the Jewish one.

[Reeve]

Acually the original swaztika goes the other direction so its possible to see the difference on them.

Also why is noone waving the british flag in the states? Would people enrage over that?

It doesn't matter. Put a swastika on your sleeve, and people will interpret the symbol based on their reference frame, not yours.

[Daelak]

First of all, secession isn't "illegal in the Constitution", it's illegal in a Supreme Court case in the context of the validity of sovereign debt incurred by a seceding state. The Constitution is entirely silent on the subject -- although it seems logically impossible that a document that draws up a federal government that is designed by and fully at the disposal of a union of free and independent states to modify by amendment was ever intended to be a club that you couldn't ever quit.

If you don't understand why it would be bad if states could secede or join the US on a whim, then you don't understand why we should be united in the first place.

[Allybeboba]

And back to the OT...
The sad fact is that a minority of people are dictating what the majority of the people want.
Unless you live or grew up in the South you have no idea what it like to have "Southern Pride". For many in the South it is a part of their heritage. No less more so than New Englanders that have ties to the Revolutionary War. Imagine having to take down all original symbols of the revolutionary war in NE, if you will. How well would that go over? Imagine if Walmart, Amazon, Ebay etc. stopped selling all merchandise that had to do with the revolutionary war. TV channels stopped running shows that had symbols from the revolutionary war. That happened. It just happened to the seven Southern states. Quite sad indeed... Ludicrous actually.

/cheers

[Daelak]

And back to the OT...
The sad fact is that a minority of people are dictating what the majority of the people want.
Unless you live or grew up in the South you have no idea what it like to have "Southern Pride". For many in the South it is a part of their heritage. No less more so than New Englanders that have ties to the Revolutionary War. Imagine having to take down all original symbols of the revolutionary war in NE, if you will. How well would that go over? Imagine if Walmart, Amazon, Ebay etc. stopped selling all merchandise that had to do with the revolutionary war. TV channels stopped running shows that had symbols from the revolutionary war. That happened. It just happened to the seven Southern states. Quite sad indeed... Ludicrous actually.

/cheers

I am from the south and the flag is representative of the heritage to intimidate and lynch blacks, as well as the reclaim the states' right to own human beings as private property. No thanks.

[Allybeboba]

I am from the south and the flag is representative of the heritage to intimidate and lynch blacks, as well as the reclaim the states' right to own human beings as private property. No thanks.

Tennessee was part of the union son. Of course you would not understand. Although they did send many valuable volunteers in the 1820-30's to help my home state gain it's independence as a sovereign country. So you allare not all that bad. Some of which are my ancestors. ������

Ever on topic...
If these same places were to want to fly the real Confederate Flag as we do in Texas, how many people would oppose that flag?
Why are we not opposing flags of real hatred and exclusion?
Have a wonderful day

[Daelak]

Tennessee was part of the union son. Of course you would not understand. Although they did send many valuable volunteers in the 1820-30's to help my home state gain it's independence as a sovereign country. So you allare not all that bad. Some of which are my ancestors. ������

Ever on topic...
If these same places were to want to fly the real Confederate Flag as we do in Texas, how many people would oppose that flag?
Why are we not opposing flags of real hatred and exclusion?
Have a wonderful day

No surprise you like the "heritage", you don't even fucking know all the confederate states.

Everyone reading posts from this guy, remember, this is why they support the "heritage" because they have no fucking idea what is represents.

[Conspicuous Cultist]

Who is actually advocating getting rid of the flag completely? As in, it's illegal for a guy to own it in his house?

What this is looking like it's just cracking down on government buildings and they've been doing this for awhile now, the commandments in front of OK courthouse as an example.

[Xeones]

And back to the OT...
The sad fact is that a minority of people are dictating what the majority of the people want.
Unless you live or grew up in the South you have no idea what it like to have "Southern Pride". For many in the South it is a part of their heritage. No less more so than New Englanders that have ties to the Revolutionary War. Imagine having to take down all original symbols of the revolutionary war in NE, if you will. How well would that go over? Imagine if Walmart, Amazon, Ebay etc. stopped selling all merchandise that had to do with the revolutionary war. TV channels stopped running shows that had symbols from the revolutionary war. That happened. It just happened to the seven Southern states. Quite sad indeed... Ludicrous actually.

/cheers

I live and grew up in the south around people who love to wave the flag. I never understood it. It clearly represents racism, from a very young age I have thought this. Every time I asked someone why they flew it they said "southern pride" when I asked what that mean I only going rambling mumbling responses. Either people don't know what "southern pride" is or they don't want to say what it is.

Also I think it's pretty insulting as an American to compare our war of independence to a war of treason to protect slavery. Motivations are a bit different there.

[Ripster42]

Tennessee was part of the union son.

Tennessee was the last state to secede son! Here you go:

Tennessee

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ORDINANCE dissolving the federal relations between the State of Tennessee and the United States of America.

First. We, the people of the State of Tennessee, waiving any expression of opinion as to the abstract doctrine of secession, but asserting the right, as a free and independent people, to alter, reform, or abolish our form of government in such manner as we think proper, do ordain and declare that all the laws and ordinances by which the State of Tennessee became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America are hereby abrogated and annulled, and that all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws and ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the United States, and to absolve ourselves from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred thereto; and do hereby henceforth become a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Second. We furthermore declare and ordain that article 10, sections 1 and 2, of the constitution of the State of Tennessee, which requires members of the General Assembly and all officers, civil and military, to take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same are hereby, abrogated and annulled, and all parts of the constitution of the State of Tennessee making citizenship of the United States a qualification for office and recognizing the Constitution of the United States as the supreme law of this State are in like manner abrogated and annulled.

Third. We furthermore ordain and declare that all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, or under any laws of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

Source: Official Records, Ser. IV, vol. 1, p. 290.

[Sent to referendum May 6, 1861 by the legislature, and approved by the voters by a vote of 104,471 to 47,183 on June 8, 1861.]

[Hammerfest]

Also why is noone waving the british flag in the states? Would people enrage over that?

There had been a small movement from about 1800 to 1900 in the US that believed the US should go back to being a British colony. It died out in the early 20th Century. I've read that horror writer HP Lovecraft was a sympathizer.

[Shibito]

The original swastika dates back to the origins of written language and is still used as the symbol for the character 'ban' in Japanese, a language which itself is older than dirt, and looks just like the Nazi version. The manji, as it is also called, can be drawn both ways and was used by a number of different cultures and religions over the ages. The arms of the Nazi swastika go in exactly the same direction as the Hindu, Tibetan, and yes, even the Jewish one.

Buddha statues in asian countries that are really old acually got the other way swastikas on them