Resto druid trinket help!

[Konahh]

This is not really the case. The problem with the class trinket is it only has that proc, no additional regen or throughput. Even if you compare the class trinket to Mythic Autoclave (a trinket 20+ ilvl below the HFC Mythic trinkets), you lose:

-786 Spirit
-~453 average haste

786 Spirit is worth ~156,000 extra mana on an 8 minute fight. That is worth the equivalent of ~13 extra Wild Growths or 52 extra Rejuvs over the course of the fight that you will be able to afford that you wouldn't otherwise. When you factor in the amount of extra healing you would be able to do with those extra casts, it works out to being in line with - if not higher than the throughput added by the Seed of Creation proc. Plus, you get the haste proc on top of that for more throughput. Plus, it's generally better to have more mana to cast the spells you want to cast than have less mana and being dependent on a random proc.

The problem is here I don't need to cast 13 extra WG's take Gorefiend for example, the top log without SoC uses 23 WG casts, I used 17 myself running Emulsion + SoC. That is a difference of 6 WG's over a 8:40 fight (my log is 20s faster) I also used 147 rejuvs to his 133. Include that my Flourish did 6m healing and that is more than 6 WG's will do under any circumstance.

"A fair amount of smart play with your mana" basically means giving up throughput by casting less spells, effectively offsetting and usually eliminating the gains from doing so in the first place.

No, it means I won't be casting inefficient spells to gain some snipe heals which you can get away with if using spirit trinkets. Yes it means in specific parts of the fight I will be doing "less" healing but during the high damage phases I can burn my mana and do much more healing over the fight.

[Torty]

The problem is here I don't need to cast 13 extra WG's take Gorefiend for example, the top log without SoC uses 23 WG casts, I used 17 myself running Emulsion + SoC. That is a difference of 6 WG's over a 8:40 fight (my log is 20s faster) I also used 147 rejuvs to his 133. Include that my Flourish did 6m healing and that is more than 6 WG's will do under any circumstance.

First of all, link both logs that you are analyzing. I find it really strange that the guy with superior regen had such a little difference in his casts over you.

Second, 6 WGs are about 2.4 million healing before overhealing. You also somehow compared Flourish to 6 WGs, which I assume is from spirit regen, and didn't account for additional throughput from haste proc. If you are going to do any theorycrafting, make sure you calculate everything and don't leave things that don't fit your narrative out.

No, it means I won't be casting inefficient spells to gain some snipe heals which you can get away with if using spirit trinkets. Yes it means in specific parts of the fight I will be doing "less" healing but during the high damage phases I can burn my mana and do much more healing over the fight.

That's the only good argument in your post, but doesn't have any real numbers to back it up.

From my personal testing Heroic Seed of Creation performed slightly better than Mythic Autoclave. I think the only fights where it would perform rather badly and get outhealed by Autoclave would be Iron Reaver, Kormrok and maybe Archimonde. You only need 6 players in a 15 yard stack (which is huge, WM diameter is 16 yards to give you some perspective) and even at 4-5 it does pretty good. I honestly would put it at a solid third place after Phylactery and Emulsion.

[Konahh]

First of all, link both logs that you are analyzing. I find it really strange that the guy with superior regen had such a little difference in his casts over you.

Second, 6 WGs are about 2.4 million healing before overhealing. You also somehow compared Flourish to 6 WGs, which I assume is from spirit regen, and didn't account for additional throughput from haste proc. If you are going to do any theorycrafting, make sure you calculate everything and don't leave things that don't fit your narrative out.

The reason I spoke about WG and Rejuv is because Tiberria mentioned each of them specifically. You can see in these two logs he has 12 more WM cast's than me which gave him just under 4m more healing than me, which comes from me exclusively only using it during feast. Probably chose a bad log to compare since his team openly let him whore but he is the only one in top 10 not using SoC.

My logs - http://imgur.com/IdHED8u

No SoC log - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...true&source=22

[Tiberria]

The reason I spoke about WG and Rejuv is because Tiberria mentioned each of them specifically. You can see in these two logs he has 12 more WM cast's than me which gave him just under 4m more healing than me, which comes from me exclusively only using it during feast. Probably chose a bad log to compare since his team openly let him whore but he is the only one in top 10 not using SoC.

My logs - http://imgur.com/IdHED8u

No SoC log - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...true&source=22

Top 10 logs are a very bad baseline to look at this tier, because of the existence of the Leech trinket. Basically, the Leech trinket will add 25-30% extra healing on Gorefiend, but that healing will not show up as being attributed to the healer, so any healer using the Leech trinket is going to inherently be 15%+ lower on logs than a healer using a different trinket with actual on logs throughput. However, the Leech trinket is so powerful - especially on Gorefiend - that anyone that has one should be using it unless they care more about what their personal log numbers show than what is more actual throughput for the raid.

Almost all of the top 50 parses will be without using the Leech trinket, which naturally means that almost all of them are going to be using Phlyactery+Class trinket. It's kind of irrelevant and shouldn't be used as a benchmark to decide what trinket to be used, because any Resto Druid that has a Leech trinket and isn't using it on Gorefiend is quite frankly being dumb.

[Konahh]

Top 10 logs are a very bad baseline to look at this tier, because of the existence of the Leech trinket. Basically, the Leech trinket will add 25-30% extra healing on Gorefiend, but that healing will not show up as being attributed to the healer, so any healer using the Leech trinket is going to inherently be 15%+ lower on logs than a healer using a different trinket with actual on logs throughput. However, the Leech trinket is so powerful - especially on Gorefiend - that anyone that has one should be using it unless they care more about what their personal log numbers show than what is more actual throughput for the raid.

Almost all of the top 50 parses will be without using the Leech trinket, which naturally means that almost all of them are going to be using Phlyactery+Class trinket. It's kind of irrelevant and shouldn't be used as a benchmark to decide what trinket to be used, because any Resto Druid that has a Leech trinket and isn't using it on Gorefiend is quite frankly being dumb.

I didn't mention Leech trinket because I used Emulsion and Seed. Fairly sure his log used Emulsion + Phylactery.

[Torty]

I frankly don't understand the point of your posts. First of all, you posted a screenshot. I mean, wtf is that supposed to tell us? I can't see if you went inside or not, how many times you were if that happened.

Just from the screenshot, you have abysmal amount of WM casts compared to other guy (which is a lot of mana). He also had more Lifebloom casts and 4 Genesis casts. I mean, you got outclassed by a huge margin there. If you are arguing for Seed+Emulsion being better than Emulsion+Phylactery, you are not doing yourself any favors. Phylactery is obviously better.

[Konahh]

I frankly don't understand the point of your posts. First of all, you posted a screenshot. I mean, wtf is that supposed to tell us? I can't see if you went inside or not, how many times you were if that happened.

Just from the screenshot, you have abysmal amount of WM casts compared to other guy (which is a lot of mana). He also had more Lifebloom casts and 4 Genesis casts. I mean, you got outclassed by a huge margin there. If you are arguing for Seed+Emulsion being better than Emulsion+Phylactery, you are not doing yourself any favors. Phylactery is obviously better.

Guilds logs are private and you wanted to see logs so I linked my casts. While I understand what you are saying I have 4m more healing than him over the course of all feasts which is the only even remotely healing intensive part of the fight, while he is showing he can whore I am actually healing correctly. We were also 5 healing which requires me to cast less.

[Torty]

And I bet he did way more healing than you on adds inside judging from your healing spells. Again, it's hard to tell anything from your screenshot, so we have to assume things and take you on your word. I also don't agree that Feast is important in a 5 healer setup. You basically just chain raid cooldowns for the whole duration and call it a day. I don't think people are even getting below 70% hp unless they are soaking souls.

Your log looks pretty mediocre with Seed. I still can't see how it's better than Phylactery. I mean, I knew Phylactery is better on paper, you are proving it in action and still arguing in favor of it.

[Konahh]

And I bet he did way more healing than you on adds inside judging from your healing spells. Again, it's hard to tell anything from your screenshot, so we have to assume things and take you on your word. I also don't agree that Feast is important in a 5 healer setup. You basically just chain raid cooldowns for the whole duration and call it a day. I don't think people are even getting below 70% hp unless they are soaking souls.

I only went inside once.

Your log looks pretty mediocre with Seed. I still can't see how it's better than Phylactery. I mean, I knew Phylactery is better on paper, you are proving it in action and still arguing in favor of it.

Are your logs with Phylactery + Emulsion? If so on paper you should do better than me (you didn't). Don't come at me with the "mediocre" bullshit when I out-perform you with what you would call a "sub-optimal" trinket set-up.

[Thalur]

over the course of all feasts which is the only even remotely healing intensive part of the fight

Interesting. For me, this is the easy part of the fight. People die all the time in the normal phase, but healing through feasts is always very easy. If I used SoC, I would only be meter-whoring in that phase, while the important healing (normal phase plus inside) would suffer. But maybe it's just because our execution isn't very good yet. But we never had any problems healing feasts, this is the easy phase even for healers. But maybe it's because of 3 leech trinkets trivializing that phase.

[Deleted]

Interesting. For me, this is the easy part of the fight. People die all the time in the normal phase, but healing through feasts is always very easy. If I used SoC, I would only be meter-whoring in that phase, while the important healing (normal phase plus inside) would suffer. But maybe it's just because our execution isn't very good yet. But we never had any problems healing feasts, this is the easy phase even for healers. But maybe it's because of 3 leech trinkets trivializing that phase.

That's because the fight isn't extensively hard to heal. The whole fight has a relatively low HPS check, the feast has a high HPS check, but that gets covered by CD's.

The reason you're finding outside hard to heal, is because people are doing it wrong, standing to close to dropped doom wells etc.

[Konahh]

Interesting. For me, this is the easy part of the fight. People die all the time in the normal phase, but healing through feasts is always very easy. If I used SoC, I would only be meter-whoring in that phase, while the important healing (normal phase plus inside) would suffer. But maybe it's just because our execution isn't very good yet. But we never had any problems healing feasts, this is the easy phase even for healers. But maybe it's because of 3 leech trinkets trivializing that phase.

We had it a lot the same during progress but once people have the execution correct that phase is considerably easier. We also have our monk use Revival if anything goes to shit in the regular phase. I don't see how inside would suffer I always LB + double rejuv and then cast whatever is necessary to top the mob up.

[Torty]

I only went inside once.



Are your logs with Phylactery + Emulsion? If so on paper you should do better than me (you didn't). Don't come at me with the "mediocre" bullshit when I out-perform you with what you would call a "sub-optimal" trinket set-up.

Let's compare screenshots, if that's what you are into.

Yours http://i.imgur.com/IdHED8u.png
Mine http://i.imgur.com/aNbxQO0.jpg

You had less rejuvs, less wgs, less shrooms, less regrowths, less lifebloom ticks, less swiftmends, 5 less genesises and I went inside 2 more times than you. Your log is just objectively worse at every single thing except for Tranq timing (which is outside of my control). Also, your lack of Genesis usage tells me that you didn't even do proper healing on the adds inside. So yes, I did indeed do better than you with Phylactery.

[Sprucelee]

Optimizing healing for feasts is pretty much a waste; CDs carry you through and other tweaks (such as using seed) just amounts to healers fighting over inconsequential healing. Regardless, there are lots of ways to heal this fight, but IMO optimizing healing to have the least amount (or lowest health) essences up top is the most beneficial thing healers can do.

[Konahh]

Let's compare screenshots, if that's what you are into.

Yours http://i.imgur.com/IdHED8u.png
Mine http://i.imgur.com/aNbxQO0.jpg

You had less rejuvs, less wgs, less shrooms, less regrowths, less lifebloom ticks, less swiftmends, 5 less genesises and I went inside 2 more times than you. Your log is just objectively worse at every single thing except for Tranq timing (which is outside of my control). Also, your lack of Genesis usage tells me that you didn't even do proper healing on the adds inside. So yes, I did indeed do better than you with Phylactery.

The reasoning behind me not using Genesis inside is because I went in with our Holy Paladin which dominates healing the essences. And I don't understand why you are talking about having more casts, of course you will have more than me I was using SoC, which means you have more disposable mana... I also see how you just completely ignored the healing it did.

If you are going to do any theorycrafting, make sure you calculate everything and don't leave things that don't fit your narrative out

[Tiberria]

The reasoning behind me not using Genesis inside is because I went in with our Holy Paladin which dominates healing the essences. And I don't understand why you are talking about having more casts, of course you will have more than me I was using SoC, which means you have more disposable mana... I also see how you just completely ignored the healing it did.

What he (and most everyone else in this thread) is saying is that using SoC, having less regen, and being able to cast less Regrowth, Genesis and WG is actively less valuable if you look at what makes it easier for your raid to actually down that fight. If you think straight HPS numbers are a measure of healer performance, I don't even know what to say to you.

While I think it's questionable whether LB, Rejuv x 2 on 2 adds then using Genesis is a superior way to heal adds than just LB and glyphed Regrowth spam (I found the first add was often already topped by the other healer before I could get out 7 GCDs - but we were asked to heal single adds to before switching), I think it's unquestionable that managing add healing and preventing avoidable P1 deaths is far more important to healer performance on that fight than padding HPS numbers as much as possible during feast.

Yes, feast is a lot of healing, but even while 4 healing, you have no shortage of total healing output to survive the feast as long as your raid cooldowns are used in an intelligent manner. If you're 5 healing, you have a gross over abundance of healing. 35-40% feast phase overheal is typical with 5 healers. Even if you can get more meter numbers from using SoC over using a regen trinket and then casting more spells overall, those meter numbers don't make a damn bit of difference, because you already have 40% more throughput than you need, and you're just sniping that healing from other healers, not being actually useful to your raid.

The mana to cast more Genesis/Regrowth for healing adds, or to be able to cast more Regrowths/Wild Growth to stabilize and keep people alive in P1 (yes - people will make mistakes with doom wells and not using personals enough, etc in P1 even when its on farm) is far more valuable to killing the boss than a random cleaving proc that primarily helps with a phase that is already being overhealed. You just have to look outside the bubble of OMG MOAR HPS to see it.

[Konahh]

The mana to cast more Genesis/Regrowth for healing adds, or to be able to cast more Regrowths/Wild Growth to stabilize and keep people alive in P1 (yes - people will make mistakes with doom wells and not using personals enough, etc in P1 even when its on farm) is far more valuable to killing the boss than a random cleaving proc that primarily helps with a phase that is already being overhealed. You just have to look outside the bubble of OMG MOAR HPS to see it.

First off I am not talking about straight HPS numbers nor do I think they have a direct impact on judging how a player has performed.

You are making assumptions that I am withholding casts to preserve mana for the rest of the fight, you are wrong. Anytime there is incoming damage that is threatening to the raid I will always prioritize keeping people alive and topped up which means I will cast what I need to, to accomplish that. The same goes for essences inside, I will cast everything required to keep them from causing the raid a problem. If that means I go in with a Holy Paladin and use LB + x2 rejuv's and cast whatever necessary to top them, then I will do that.

For feast you are correct in saying rotating cooldowns intelligently will give you enough output to keep the raid alive, our cooldowns were set for me to ToL + HotW at the beginning of the phase. This is where SoC comes into play with them 2 cooldowns and spaming rejuv's + WG + WM it is basically a raid topper without using any major CD's like Tide / Tranq / Revival early in the phase.

Now, I understand your argument for Phylactery being stronger it gives you more movement for people failing and you are free to cast whichever spell you choose to top either a player or NPC up. BUT I can achieve the same thing by being more efficient with what I cast and when I cast it. If my raid group was constantly fucking up and taking too much unnecessary damage of course I would need to switch to Phylactery to compensate for their personal errors.

[Torty]

You are making assumptions that I am withholding casts to preserve mana for the rest of the fight, you are wrong.

He is not wrong. You are straight up casting way less than druids with Phylactery. That's a fact and really can't be argued about. All your stories about how you are casting where it matters are just that - stories. You can't provide the log for whatever reason and your add healing pattern doesn't really help your case.

Can you link your add healing from that fight? Phase 1 healing? If you do that, we can continue discussing SoC's contribution to effective healing. Right now it's just a spherical horse in a vacuum that is somehow running 100 km/h and winning every race. Hard to take it at face value at the moment.

[Deleted]

He is not wrong. You are straight up casting way less than druids with Phylactery. That's a fact and really can't be argued about. All your stories about how you are casting where it matters are just that - stories. You can't provide the log for whatever reason and your add healing pattern doesn't really help your case.

Can you link your add healing from that fight? Phase 1 healing? If you do that, we can continue discussing SoC's contribution to effective healing. Right now it's just a spherical horse in a vacuum that is somehow running 100 km/h and winning every race. Hard to take it at face value at the moment.

Below:
Add healing: http://imgur.com/rLMg1wU
Phase 1 Overall Healing: http://imgur.com/Z1p2dbV
Spell Breakdown of healing done to adds inside: http://imgur.com/wIoH65N

Konahh went into the 'inside' twice.

Once with Monk + Disc, and second time with Pala.