What would've happened if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia?

[DarkArchon]

Russia/Germany were already neutral allies and Russia was already supplying Germany with resources at the time. Russia would have sided with Germany before they ever sided with the United States....Invading Russia was a huge strategic error...Even if Russia stayed neutral it would have drawn out the war with Germany efforts focused on fighting one front which would have meant the first atomic bomb drop would have went to Germany, rewriting history. Not only this but would have gave birth to many other of Germany's superior armory advancements.

[Auxora]

Germany was kind of put in a position where they didn't have a choice but to attack after losing the Battle of Britain. No air superiority after losing that meant no Operation Sea Lion, so invading Britain got pulled off the table. As for the USSR, while they had an agreement not to attack each other, it was kind of like 2 fighters circling each other where you knew they were going to fight and it was just a matter of who made the first move. USSR would have attacked if Germany didn't (most likely, although we'll never know for sure). The situation of the 2 powers facing off with massive distrust as it was wasn't sustainable.

In hindsight, the timing of Germany attacking was awful since it pushed into winter which was a completely epic disaster for them. But even without the winter it's questionable whether they would have won. They underestimated the Russian will to throw endless bodies into the fight, and they underestimated the Russian manufacturing capability to the East, as well as Russian military equipment and strategy. The Russians made some great equipment and had some very good generals.

By the way, I don't have the link offhand, but there is a series of some excellent books on Amazon with battle diaries from German commanders on the Eastern Front with the USSR. The translations are a little rough. But it's still amazing reading through and seeing at a detailed perspective what happened, rather than the high-level view in school books and documentaries. The summary is that before the Germans started retreating and it was more of a stalemate, and even on other parts of the front outside of Stalingrad, things were not going well. The Germans were daily being ambushed, attacked at night, being drawn into traps, etc. Through attrition they were losing people and equipment every day that couldn't be replaced. While on the Russian side, even if the Germans knocked out 5 tanks and killed 100 Russians, they would see the same number the next day. So you could feel in the writing the feeling that the commanders knew it was a hopeless losing fight.

[cubby]

Had Hitler not invaded Russia, and instead made a pact with Stalin, WWII would have gone on for a VERY long time - possibly into a settled truce. With no Eastern Front to worry about, Hitler could have shored up his European victories and held off an Allied invasion, possibly indefinitely.

If you like historical fiction, I highly recommend The Axis of Time Trilogy, by John Birmginham.

[Puupi]

Had Hitler not invaded Russia, and instead made a pact with Stalin, WWII would have gone on for a VERY long time - possibly into a settled truce. With no Eastern Front to worry about, Hitler could have shored up his European victories and held off an Allied invasion, possibly indefinitely.

If you like historical fiction, I highly recommend The Axis of Time Trilogy, by John Birmginham.

Historical fiction? Time travel from 2021 through a wormhole experiment to 1942.... I think that is stretching the concept of historical fiction a bit too much.

[Felya]

Russia/Germany were already neutral allies and Russia was already supplying Germany with resources at the time. Russia would have sided with Germany before they ever sided with the United States....Invading Russia was a huge strategic error...Even if Russia stayed neutral it would have drawn out the war with Germany efforts focused on fighting one front which would have meant the first atomic bomb drop would have went to Germany, rewriting history. Not only this but would have gave birth to many other of Germany's superior armory advancements.

Russia signed a peace treaty with Germany to stay out of the war. There is no reason to believe Russia would side with anyone, if not attacked. Especially considering the idealistic issues fascism and communism had for decades...

[DarkArchon]

Russia signed a peace treaty with Germany to stay out of the war. There is no reason to believe Russia would side with anyone, if not attacked. Especially considering the idealistic issues fascism and communism had for decades...

That's exactly why attacking them was a massive error..Russia would have upped supply trains just to remain out of the fight. If they choose not to attack Russia things would be very different.

[breadisfunny]

Europe would have been nuked if Hitler hand't invaded Russia. D-day and allied victory over Germany would have been impossible and in the stalemate situation USA would have nuked Germany sooner or later.

nevermind misread the post. was thinking of a different scenario.

[cubby]

Historical fiction? Time travel from 2021 through a wormhole experiment to 1942.... I think that is stretching the concept of historical fiction a bit too much.

It's actually the very definition of historical fiction. But don't worry, just hate stuff without investigating it - join the pool of ignorance.

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That's exactly why attacking them was a massive error..Russia would have upped supply trains just to remain out of the fight. If they choose not to attack Russia things would be very different.

And choosing to instead invade England. It's possible that the Third Reich would still be in existence today.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Not the greatest History nerd but wouldn't that let them focus more on Britain, he wouldn't have had to call Rommel back and Africa would have been more secure as well, making it a lot harder to beat them.

[Caliph]

The inital success of operation barbarosa wasn't because of german superiority but because of russian military positions. The germans basically attacked russia before russia could attack them. In effect, germany caught russia in offensive positions and was able to capture or destroy large parts of russia's military.

So if germany hadn't attacked russia, russia would've attacked germany. The germans at the time were better prepared for an invasion and believed whole heartedly that russia would sooner or later attack and were thus ready. hitler didn't want to remain defense so they attacked first.

the rest is history.

[cubby]

Not the greatest History nerd but wouldn't that let them focus more on Britain, he wouldn't have had to call Rommel back and Africa would have been more secure as well, making it a lot harder to beat them.

Interesting point. Africa was always a tough nut for Hitler and probably was a mistake from the beginning. I would argue that Hitler could have pulled back from Africa altogether and kept a secured border between it and Europe, holding the entire southern portion. With his southern and eastern flanks reasonably secure, the Allies would have a much more difficult time gaining a foothold from which to invade, and ultimately succeed.

Many historians also argue that NOT invading England was a mistake, and it's hard to argue, and the Empire was both a training area and staging ground for air and land invasions. However, if Hitler had not invaded Russia, and made a strategic withdraw from Africa (a continent no one person could ever really hope to control), leaving England alone might have forced the world to sue for peace..

Of course, it wouldn't (didn't) happen, as Hitler was a crazed megalomaniac who wanted global domination. So he was doomed from the start, so to speak.

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The inital success of operation barbarosa wasn't because of german superiority but because of russian military positions. The germans basically attacked russia before russia could attack them. In effect, germany caught russia in offensive positions and was able to capture or destroy large parts of russia's military.

So if germany hadn't attacked russia, russia would've attacked germany. The germans at the time were better prepared for an invasion and believed whole heartedly that russia would sooner or later attack and were thus ready. hitler didn't want to remain defense so they attacked first.

the rest is history.

Isn't all of it history? (j/k)

Seriously, however, is it certain that Russia was going to attack Germany at that point? I was under the impression that Stalin was willing to stay neutral if left alone.

[Zephinism]

France wouldn't have been liberated but the battle for Africa would be uncertain.
India, Australia, South Africa and Brazil were all instrumental in defeating Vichy France in North Africa & Italy.
The Italians already proved themselves to be godawful at war and many German occupied countries had resistance movements.

Once Japan was defeated (Germany would provide no aid). The US could mount support from communist countries, the USSR included, to push fom the ME which was in firm control by India at the time.

Take something like Operation Compass
36'000 British soldiers (Britain, Australia, India, Free France) versus 150.000 Italians where the British won with only 500 deaths. My greatgrandfather fought during this conflict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass

North Africa would remain out of Hitlers reach and with no gas left at his reach besides in USSR he would be forced to fight a losing battle of attrition.

[Puupi]

It's actually the very definition of historical fiction. But don't worry, just hate stuff without investigating it - join the pool of ignorance.

Oh pleez. It's a scifi book with a historical twist. Plus, it's not like the reviews give the book much credit.

This is historical fiction: http://www.amazon.com/The-Egyptian-N.../dp/1556524412

[Logwyn]

On the soc.history.what-if group. This is what we call a Hitler wasn't Hitler scenario.

[Caliph]

Interesting point. Africa was always a tough nut for Hitler and probably was a mistake from the beginning. I would argue that Hitler could have pulled back from Africa altogether and kept a secured border between it and Europe, holding the entire southern portion. With his southern and eastern flanks reasonably secure, the Allies would have a much more difficult time gaining a foothold from which to invade, and ultimately succeed.

Many historians also argue that NOT invading England was a mistake, and it's hard to argue, and the Empire was both a training area and staging ground for air and land invasions. However, if Hitler had not invaded Russia, and made a strategic withdraw from Africa (a continent no one person could ever really hope to control), leaving England alone might have forced the world to sue for peace..

Of course, it wouldn't (didn't) happen, as Hitler was a crazed megalomaniac who wanted global domination. So he was doomed from the start, so to speak.

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Isn't all of it history? (j/k)

Seriously, however, is it certain that Russia was going to attack Germany at that point? I was under the impression that Stalin was willing to stay neutral if left alone.

No the russians were in clear offensive positions. The blitzkreig was able to flank them, disrupt supplies and logistics and pincer many of the russian armies. it was the american lend/lease to keep leningrad from falling and the russian defense of stalingrad that helped save russia. along with the winter of course. The germans got to within 40 miles or so of Moscow but were halted by napoleans folly (winter).

i basically lived on ww2 history books in study class in high school. god high school sucked so i had to learn on my own.

[cubby]

Oh pleez. It's a scifi book with a historical twist. Plus, it's not like the reviews give the book much credit.

This is historical fiction: http://www.amazon.com/The-Egyptian-N.../dp/1556524412

I'm not going to have a conversation with someone who doesn't understand the subject matter. Let's agree to disagree, and stay on thread topic. We can thrash out our differences via PMs (which I'd be happy to do).

[Deleted]

Let's discuss every battle/war since the dawn of men since the entire map could look different than it is now..."what if" are the most boring and useless discussions as it has endless possibilities.

[Fullmetal89]

He had to, the allies had bombed all the synthetic oil refineries in Germany. He needed the oil in the Caucasus and Russia was his ultimate goal either way. If Russia was annexed he could feed his entire army and supply it. Nothing would be able to stop the Third Reich at that point.

[GennGreymane]

Much longer and more bloody war

[Puupi]

I'm not going to have a conversation with someone who doesn't understand the subject matter. Let's agree to disagree, and stay on thread topic. We can thrash out our differences via PMs (which I'd be happy to do).

I don't understand the subject matter? Which part of the "time travel through wormhole" did you not understand? Historical fiction doesn't include time travel and wormholes. If you add those to the story, it becomes science fiction or fantasy. End of discussion.