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  1. #1

    Fanmade Subrace Project [Revised]

    If you've seen my earlier threads I've talked about subraces quite extensively in attempt to create a project and now I've launched it with the help of GoldenYak. Remember this is purely fanmade and unless you can contribute lore and such, then no bickering about it. Subraces that can be made skins are automatically disqualified unless they are a neutral or opposite faction subrace. So here's the tauren, I however will update it with the other races as time goes by.

    Tauren

    Taunka (Horde) – The Taunka have existed in the Horde since the time of the Alliance and Horde’s alliance to defeat Arthas in Northrend. The Taunka allied with the Horde because of their close cousins, the tauren. Unlike other shamans, Taunka shamans bully the elements into working for them, but the growing relationship with the Horde has led to a more peaceful coexistence between the Elements. Lately, however the taunka have been serving as useful allies to the Horde, with many traveling out of Northrend.

    Racial Leader: Roanauk Icemist
    Classes: Warrior, Hunter (Eagle Pet), Paladin, Death Knight, Monk, Shaman, Druid, Priest.
    Racial Traits:
    *Brawn
    *Cultivation
    *Endurance
    *Frost Resistance
    *War Stomp (Active)
    Racial Mount: Wooly Kodo
    Starting Zone: Dragonblight


    Yaungol (Neutral) - Due to the defeat of their demigod Ordos and their trials with the Sha of Fear pushing some to the brink of destruction, they were aided by the pandaren. This eventually led to some of them seeking co-existence, or to travel to other lands beyond Pandaria and find homes for their people, hence them seeking out unions with world powers like the Alliance and the Horde. Being largely leaderless, with the various tribes spread out across both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms because of which faction they joined.

    Racial Leaders: (No Official Leaders); Baine Bloodhoof (Horde), Jaina Proudmoore (Alliance)
    Classes: Hunter (Goat Pet), Shaman, Warrior, Paladin, Druid, Monk, Priest, Mage
    Racial Traits:
    *Brawn
    *Cultivation
    *Endurance
    *Fire Resistance
    *War Stomp (Active)
    Racial Mount: Mushan
    Starting Zone: Townlong Steppes


    Blood Elf

    High Elf (Alliance) – With a call to attempt to merge what’s little left of the High elves that choose to keep their identity as Quel’dorei as opposed to Sin’dorei, the remaining 1% of the high elves attempt to live the life that their ancestors once lived before the Scourge attacking Quel’Thalas. Setting shops up across Alliance Cities, such as Stormwind, Ironforge, Exodar and especially Dalaran, the high elves seek to separate themselves even more to their former magic-addicted brethren, the Sin’dorei. They live in the constant fear of extinction and a few radical mages are attacking Horde settlements along the Eastern Kingdoms.

    Racial Leader: Vereesa Windrunner, Alleria Windrunner
    Classes: Hunter (Fox Pet), Priest, Paladin, Rogue, Mage, Monk, Death Knight, Warrior
    Racial Traits:
    * Arcane Acuity
    *Arcane Torrent
    *Holy Resistance
    *Arcane Affinity
    (I feel so bad that I couldn't really figure out the High Elf racials that well)
    Racial Mount: Elven Horse/Unicorn
    Starting Zone: Dalaran


    Orc

    Mok’Nathal/Half-Ogres (Horde) – Rexxar was the first Mok’Nathal to venture into Azeroth during the second Horde Invasion. When the Reopening of the Dark Portal came to pass and Horde and Alliance charged through what was once Draenor, they met the surviving half-ogres of the Mok’Nathal. A minority of them left Outland to travel to Azeroth and have aided the Horde in small ways since then.

    Racial Leaders: Rexxar, Orhan Ogreblade
    Classes: Warrior, Shaman, Hunter (Hyena Pet), Monk, Priest, Death Knight
    Racial Traits:
    *Hardiness
    *Command
    *Skinning Specialization
    *Beast Reckoning (Active) – summons a beast to aid you for five seconds.
    Racial Mount: Dire Bear
    Starting Zone: Stonetalon Mountains

    Fel Orc (Horde) – Succumbed to the demon corruption at first, they have turned away from the Legion as there masters have been defeated. They now struggle to live within the Horde peacefully, but are more troubled due to their destructive impulses. They flock to warriors like Saurfang who overcame demonic corruption while still being proud warriors serving worthy causes. On a darker side of things, there may be some factions in the Horde that keep fel orcs as shock troopers, caging them or otherwise restraining them like beasts until it's time to unleash them on the enemy.

    Racial Leaders: (No Official Leaders), Warchief Vol’jin
    Classes: Warlock, Warrior, Hunter (Fel Wolf Pet), Shaman, Rogue
    Racial Traits:
    *Blood Lust (Active)
    *Command
    *Hardiness
    *Arcane Resistance
    Racial Mount: Worg
    Starting Zone: Hellfire Peninsula


    Troll

    Revantusk Trolls (Horde) – Being the only tribe of Forest trolls in the Horde, they have largely been alienated to the Hinterlands by other forest troll groups. While generally staying within their tribe, they have assisted the Horde in times of need. Sending forest trolls to assist with Vol’jin’s Rebellion against Former Warchief Garrosh Hellscream. They have been loyal to the Horde ever since the Second War, but are frequently attacked by other troll factions. Lately, the Revantusk have been playing an even bigger role amongst the Horde, setting up forts in the Ruins of Lordearon as requested by Warchief Vol’jin to both keep a watch over Sylvanas Windrunner and supply troops in the Eastern Kingdoms if war was to arise.

    Racial Leaders: Primal Torntusk, Elder Torntusk
    Classes: Shaman, Hunter (Green Raptor Pet), Druid, Rogue, Warrior, Priest, Death Knight
    Racial Traits:
    *Beast Slaying
    *Berserking
    *Nature Resistance
    *Regeneration
    Racial Mount: Amani Bear
    Starting Zone: The Hinterlands


    Pandaren

    Furbolg (Alliance) – The Barkskin Tribe allied with Tyrande Whisperwind during the Third War due to her uncorrupting their shaman. Much later, the Stillpine furbolgs allied with the surviving Draenei. Furbolg have slowly been introduced more and more to the conflicts of the world largely due to the corruption of the Burning Legion and are battling the corruption. The Stillpine have become the most numerous furbolg tribe amongst the Alliance and many individuals from various uncorrupted tribes have joined.

    Racial Leader: High Chief Stillpine, Krolg
    Classes: Hunter (Stag Pet), Warrior, Rogue, Monk, Shaman, Death Knight, Druid
    Racial Traits:
    *Bouncy
    *Epicurean
    *Gourmand
    *Inner Peace
    *Fury of Ursoc – delivers a fast strike, knocking the target back.
    Racial Mount: Stag
    Starting Zone: Ashenvale


    Gnome

    Leper Gnome (Neutral) – After Gnomeregan is recovered, many of the leper gnomes are rescued and rehabilitated to an almost non-corrupted state. However more than a minority of gnomes have a resentment towards the leper gnomes. This has caused some division amongst the newly diverse leper gnome and gnome population, causing some to migrate up north to the Ruins of Lordaeron and Quel’Thalas to escape from it. Another issue is that many leper gnomes are unable to function in normal gnomish or dwarvish society and are prone to being outcast from their positions in society (if they possess any).

    Racial Leader: Gelbin Mekkatorque (Alliance), Sylvanas Windrunner (Horde)
    Classes: Priest, Mage, Warlock, Warrior, Rogue
    Racial Traits:
    *Engineering Specialization
    *Nimble Fingers
    *Escape Artist
    *Shadow Resistance (Active)
    Racial Mounts: Mechanostriders
    Starting Zone: Gnomeragon


    Human

    Vrykul (Horde) – With the Fall of the Lich King and the defeat of King Ymiron, the vrykul have virtually collapsed on themselves as a society, splitting off into anarchical colonies, but still keeping much of their culture as they did before the time of the Lich King. No vrykul man has stepped up to be King and as a result, some vrykul seek to get some order back into their lives and have decidedly joined the Horde. They primarily chose the Horde over Alliance because the vrykul still consider the humans to be a weaker and a sickly race. Warchief Vol’jin has also recognized that an alliance with the vrykul would give them a necessary foothold within Northrend.

    Racial Leader: (No Official Leaders) Warchief Vol’jin
    Classes: Shaman, Hunter (Worg Pet), Warrior, Death Knight, Rogue, Monk, Druid
    Racial Traits:
    *Diplomacy
    *Every Man for Himself
    *Berserking
    Racial Mount: Wooly Rhino

    Half-Elf (Alliance) - During the Second War and up, when humans and Quel'dorei were in closer proximity towards each other. Breeding was a race, but well documented thing. However, most of the human/elf half-breeds were rejected by both races unlike say some other half-breeds such as Half-Ogres. Half-Elves usually possess pointed ears, though more rounded and less pointed and a body shape largely compared to humans.

    Racial Leader: Finnall Goldensword
    Classes: Warrior, Hunter, Paladin, Priest, Mage, Warlock, Monk, Death Knight
    Racial Traits:
    *Every Man for Himself
    *The Human Spirit
    *Diplomacy
    *Arcane Acuity
    Racial Mount: Horse
    Starting Zone: Ruins of Theramore


    Draenei

    Broken (Alliance) - Broken were once draenei, corrupted by the fel magic of the orc warlocks. They lost their abilities to communicate with the light and were scattered into tribes, abandoned by the non-corrupted draenei. A few were with the Draenei when the Exodar crashed on Azeroth and helped caring for the refugees. However, more broken came to Azeroth after the Horde and Alliance traveled to Outland. A few broken have overcome their handicaps to march with the forces of the Draenei and Alliance.

    Racial Leader: Nobundo
    Classes: Hunter, Mage, Warrior, Shaman, Rogue, Warlock, Death Knight
    Racial Traits:
    *Heroic Presence
    *Gemcutting
    *Magic Resistance
    Racial Mount: Talbuk
    Zangarmarsh

    This project can only benefit from feedback, but please be polite about it if you can.

    Notes

    *Yaungol cannot be Death Knights because they were not around during the time of the Scourge.
    *Each Starting Zone is a entirely new section of a already Existing Zone.
    *From that Starting Area, the character is eventually teleported to their respective Capitals (Ex: Furbolgs in Darnassus, Taunka in Thunderbluff).
    *Subraces must be unlocked through Dungeons, Leveling and Achievements
    Last edited by Techno-Druid; 2015-08-01 at 11:31 PM.

  2. #2
    I think it's spot on. I especially like the mount ideas!

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk Shuji V2's Avatar
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    Project? Looks more like an afternoon coffee break. Also nothing interesting to see that hasn't been said a thousand times already.

  4. #4
    Warchief Arcanimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atethecat View Post
    This project can only benefit from feedback, so give me lots of positive feedback.
    Does this imply that negative feedback, even if constructive, is unwanted? Just a hypothetical.
    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    *bro fist*
    Main - My Youtube Channel - Useful PvP Items - Hunter Pet Spreadsheet - Music and Stuff

  5. #5
    I would be satisfied with just Grimtotem personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanimus View Post
    Does this imply that negative feedback, even if constructive, is unwanted? Just a hypothetical.
    Lol... Yeah, I'll change it, I'm just not interested in the real negative criticism. I'll change it though, thank you for your feedback.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I would be satisfied with just Grimtotem personally.
    Well, Grimtotem, Mag'har, Dark Iron and Wildhammer I just chopped up into skins.

    I'm looking at things like Mok'Nathal for orcs or Vrykul for humans...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thank you all for your feedback, Helfs have been added. It was difficult to figure out high elves and I'm still going to experiment with them a lot. Sorry I couldn't get a picture with a new model.
    Last edited by Techno-Druid; 2015-07-28 at 12:59 AM.

  7. #7
    This is a small part of write-up for a fictional expansion concept I was making just for fun, and covers my ideas on how sub-races could work:

    Minor Races: This expansion adds several new minor races, which are special variations of existing races. Each of these new races have alternative classes and a few modified racial traits. Each of them also has a special starting area, with their own 5-level lore-heavy experince, before being sent into the larger world.

    - Humans: Lordaeron Refuges
    -------- Based on human model, but slimmer and more agile. No new animations
    -------- New voice files.
    -------- Can't be Death Knight or Monk.
    -------- No changes in racials.
    -------- Starting Experience: Arathi Highlands (caravan to Refuge Point). Can choose to be sent to Elwynn or Dun Morogh later.

    - Night Elves: High Elves
    -------- Based on Night Elf model, only shorter, slimmer and ears pointed up. No new animations.
    -------- New voice files.
    -------- Loses access to Druid class, gets access to Paladin class. Can't be Death Knight or Monk.
    -------- Wisp Form becomes Will for Life; Shadowmeld becomes Hide (no change in effects)
    -------- Starting Experience: Dalaran (flying over the ocean). Can choose to be sent to Elwynn or Teldrassil later.

    - Draenei: Broken
    -------- Based on Draenei model. No new animations.
    -------- New voice files.
    -------- Loses access to Paladin and Priest classes, gets access to Warlock and Rogue classes. Can't be Death Knight or Monk.
    -------- Gift of the Naaru becomes Prayer to the Spirits, no effect change.
    -------- Starting Experience: Telaar (Nagrand,Outland). Can choose to be sent to Azuremyst or Elwynn later.

    - Tauren: Taunka
    -------- Based on tauren model, different heads. No new animations.
    -------- New voice files.
    -------- Loses access to Paladin and Priest classes, gets access to Warlock and Mage classes. Can't be Death Knight or Monk.
    -------- No changes to racials.
    -------- Starting Experience: Icemist Village (Dragonblight). Can choose to be sent to Durotar or Mul'gore later.

    - Trolls: Revantusk Trolls
    -------- Based on jungle troll model, but more muscular and taller. No new animations.
    -------- New voice files.
    -------- Can't be Death Knight or Monk.
    -------- No changes to racials.
    -------- Starting Experience: Revantusk Village (Hinterlands). Can choose to be sent to Durotar or Tirisfal later.

    - Undead: Forsaken Elves
    -------- Based on blood elf model, but new skins and red eyes. No new animations.
    -------- New voice files.
    -------- Can't be Death Knight or Monk.
    -------- Cannibalism becomes Soul Drain. Special effect syphoning power from target corpse.
    -------- Starting Experience: Windrunner Spire (Ghostlands). Can choose to be sent to Eversong or Tirisfal later.

    New Customization Options:
    - All races: Death Knight-only hair color options enabled for all classes. Also enabled very short (shaved) hair (the one that is used when character is using a hat/helm) as an option for all races. Short beard options (the ones that appear when you put some helmets) are also available.
    - Dwarves: Skin options: can now choose several Wildhammer and Dark Iron skins.
    - Orcs: Skin options: can now choose several hues of grey, brown and red skins. Also several skins that enable Dragonmaw, Bleeding Hollow and Warsong tatoos, in both those clans' skin colors and greenish variations.
    - Humans: New hair curly/ethnical style options. Including Black Power and mohawk hairdos, just for fun. Also include corrupted/tattoed necromancer skins for Death Knights and Warlocks.
    - Worgen: White and redish fur skin options added.
    - Blood elves: Skin options for uncorrupted/cleansed high elf with blue eyes.
    - Night Elves: Skin options that give amber eyes for females and white/bluish eyes for males.
    - Undead: Skin options that give red and bluish eye glow instead of yellow.

  8. #8
    I like the idea of some of the sub races being neutral or on the opposite faction of the race they branch off of. Would be nice to have male worgen/orcs/forsaken/trolls (to an extent) that didn't slouch so much. Surely that can't be good for their backs. I've always wondered why the forsaken is strictly undead humans and no other races. I know Lor'Themar is against Sylvanas raising the corpses of elves, but she has dark rangers. Maybe that would make her too similar to the Lich King, even if she gave them the choice to join her or leave/kill themselves. More visual variety is always a good thing. While the option to have humans who aren't white, there's a distinct lack of characteristics of another ethnicity.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    This is a small part of write-up for a fictional expansion concept I was making just for fun, and covers my ideas on how sub-races could work:
    Don't hijack this thread!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    enough with the high elf shit.
    hell no.
    Sorry, but no.

    More coming tomorrow.

  11. #11
    Might as well throw in my Sub-Race concept too.

    Giving each race 2 cosmetic transformations. Not all of them are sub-races, and not all of them are lore friendly, but that's Blizzard's problem. Some of them require model edits beyond simply retextures. I made a photoshop thread a while ago: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...toshop-Mockups

    All of these work without having to make any changes to the animations.

    Human
    - Azotha: Ugly children of the Vrykul, Barbarian and Vrykul features. (RPG canon only)
    - Half Elves: Children of Humans and High Elves, refugees from Theramore.
    Dwarf
    - Dark Iron: From Blackrock Mountain, dark skinned with fiery eyes.
    - Wildhammer: Traditional tattoos and tanned skin.
    Gnome
    - Leper: Irradiated Gnomes with restored sanity.
    - Tinker: Gnomes 'blessed' by Mimiron, certain Mechagnome features remain intact. Chris Robinson Approved.
    Night Elf
    - Illidari: Disciples of Illidan Stormrage, runic tattoos and burning green eyes, covered with a headband.
    - Cenarion: Dryad and Keeper of the Grove features.
    Draenei
    - Man'ari: Twisted, demonic servants of the Legion. (Requires lore bending to make some of them friendly, Argus rebels?)
    - Broken: Draenei twisted by dark magics. (Might not work with Draenei model)
    Worgen
    - Bloodmoon: Northrend Worgen, polar wolf features.
    - Blackhowl: Worgen infused with the Blood of a black Dragon. Scales and Drakonid features.
    Orc
    - Mag'har: Uncorrupted brown orcs, natives of Draenor.
    - Blackrock: Grey skinned orcs of the mountain.
    Troll
    - Forest: Mossy skin, warpaints
    - Ice: Cold, pale skin, white hair
    - Sandfury: Coarse, cracked pale skin, black tusks.
    Tauren
    - Grimtotem: Black fur and warpaints.
    - Taunka: Cousins of the Tauren from Northrend. (Would require head remodel)
    Forsaken
    - Elf: Undead High Elves, pointed ears and elven hair styles.
    - Skeleton: Completely fleshless undead (Requires remodel)
    Blood Elf
    - Darkfallen: Last remaining members of the San'layn, welcomed into the Forsaken by Sylvanas (needs more lore.)
    - Felblood: Some Blood Elves overfed on Fel Magic, causing effects beyond simply green eyes. Sprouting small wings and horns. Still friendly, however.
    Goblin
    - Gilgoblin: Aquatic goblins, created by Hobart Grapplehammer.
    - Tinker: Due to numerous engineering accidents, certain body parts replaced with volatile goblin technology.
    Pandaren
    - Black Bear: Cosmetic option
    - Grizzly Bear: Cosmetic option, be a Furbolg.
    You just lost The Game

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Might as well throw in my Sub-Race concept too.

    Giving each race 2 cosmetic transformations. Not all of them are sub-races, and not all of them are lore friendly, but that's Blizzard's problem. Some of them require model edits beyond simply retextures. I made a photoshop thread a while ago: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...toshop-Mockups

    All of these work without having to make any changes to the animations.

    Human
    - Azotha: Ugly children of the Vrykul, Barbarian and Vrykul features. (RPG canon only)
    - Half Elves: Children of Humans and High Elves, refugees from Theramore.
    Dwarf
    - Dark Iron: From Blackrock Mountain, dark skinned with fiery eyes.
    - Wildhammer: Traditional tattoos and tanned skin.
    Gnome
    - Leper: Irradiated Gnomes with restored sanity.
    - Tinker: Gnomes 'blessed' by Mimiron, certain Mechagnome features remain intact. Chris Robinson Approved.
    Night Elf
    - Illidari: Disciples of Illidan Stormrage, runic tattoos and burning green eyes, covered with a headband.
    - Cenarion: Dryad and Keeper of the Grove features.
    Draenei
    - Man'ari: Twisted, demonic servants of the Legion. (Requires lore bending to make some of them friendly, Argus rebels?)
    - Broken: Draenei twisted by dark magics. (Might not work with Draenei model)
    Worgen
    - Bloodmoon: Northrend Worgen, polar wolf features.
    - Blackhowl: Worgen infused with the Blood of a black Dragon. Scales and Drakonid features.
    Orc
    - Mag'har: Uncorrupted brown orcs, natives of Draenor.
    - Blackrock: Grey skinned orcs of the mountain.
    Troll
    - Forest: Mossy skin, warpaints
    - Ice: Cold, pale skin, white hair
    - Sandfury: Coarse, cracked pale skin, black tusks.
    Tauren
    - Grimtotem: Black fur and warpaints.
    - Taunka: Cousins of the Tauren from Northrend. (Would require head remodel)
    Forsaken
    - Elf: Undead High Elves, pointed ears and elven hair styles.
    - Skeleton: Completely fleshless undead (Requires remodel)
    Blood Elf
    - Darkfallen: Last remaining members of the San'layn, welcomed into the Forsaken by Sylvanas (needs more lore.)
    - Felblood: Some Blood Elves overfed on Fel Magic, causing effects beyond simply green eyes. Sprouting small wings and horns. Still friendly, however.
    Goblin
    - Gilgoblin: Aquatic goblins, created by Hobart Grapplehammer.
    - Tinker: Due to numerous engineering accidents, certain body parts replaced with volatile goblin technology.
    Pandaren
    - Black Bear: Cosmetic option
    - Grizzly Bear: Cosmetic option, be a Furbolg.
    Wow. I really like this idea. Don't place horde much but I would really like to try Gilgoblins and the blood elf options. Hope they add them.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    So you revisited a already better Thread few months back and made this? Oh, come on.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vjnzen View Post
    So you revisited a already better Thread few months back and made this? Oh, come on.
    No, I didn't revisit Shoc's thread at all. These are my revisions from multiple smaller threads I've made talking about specific subraces.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    For me sub-races would be:

    Alliance
    Human: Vrykul
    Gnome: Mecha Gnome
    Dwarf: Dark iron dwarves
    Night Elf: Naga (Highborne form out of combat)
    Worgen: High Elf (maybe Dalaran can relocate to Gilneas)
    Draenei: Broken

    Horde:
    Orc: Felorc
    Tauren: Taunka
    Troll: Forest Troll
    Blood Elf: Dark ranger
    Forsaken: Undead Worgen
    Goblin: Hobgoblin

    Pandaren: Furbolg

    For me brown/grey Orcs can be done with the barbershop dont need to be a subrace.
    Anyways this is what i would wish to see happen even when a few need some new lore to support it like High Elfs and undead Worgen.

  16. #16
    Want honest feedback? Not interesting.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    It makes little to no sense for High Elves to be a subrace of Night Elves, they can't stand each other, the latter isn't even allowed to set foot in Darnassus. High Elves should be a subrace of humans, they have more in common anyway.
    Last edited by mmoc7d02d691f8; 2015-07-28 at 11:12 AM.

  18. #18
    Looking forward to see if the devs actually add sub-races for the next expansion, I currently don't have any high hopes though. Would be hard to add high elves as a sub race for Alliance since they only have Night Elves and having a High elf sub race for them wouldn't really make much sense, although I'd still like to see them as part of the Alliance.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Alectis View Post
    It makes little to no sense for High Elves to be a subrace of Night Elves, they can't stand each other, the latter isn't even allowed to set foot in Darnassus. High Elves should be a subrace of humans, they have more in common anyway.
    That info is from the RPG, which is not canon anymore. We have not seen any opposition between high and night elves in the game or in the novels at all. Night elf campaign in WC3X had Tyrande working alongside the (pre-demon feeding) blood elves without any prejudice. Vereesa worked alongside Night elves without problem. There were at least two high elf NPCs living in night elf lands in the game.

    And besides, it wouldn't matter. There's no rule that says the alternative race would have good relations with the original race.

    And yeah, I considered making High Elves as an alternate race to humans, but then they'd get human racials, and every single elf-crazy person would gladly race-change their character.

  20. #20
    I don't think the idea of subraces should be mixed with neutral/opposite faction mechanics. I like Shoc's approach better, even if some of his ideas are... let's just say unconventional.

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