Blood DK Mastery Stacking

[AanvilGT]

We have our first Blood DK to clear Mythic in Tuuxx, Guild Master of From Scratch. There are only two more blood dks currently in the top 10 of progress in this tier and all three of them appear to be stacking mastery, using defile, and using some combination of bonus armor/mastery trinkets and WUE. Being the most progressed is only one measure of success, but I believe it is at least fair to say that stacking mastery has been established as a viable progression strategy. To be clear, I don't believe this assertion is at odds with Troxism's guide at the top of this forum. I only point it out as some readers of this forum might be under the impression that all blood dks should be focusing on their dps.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...s/Tuuxx/simple

http://kr.battle.net/wow/ko/characte...akiel/advanced

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hacabau/simple

[dementedlogic]

ITT we learn that undergeared tanks stack survival stats to optimize their chances of success against hard hitting bosses.

[Khiyone]

No boss is even challenging survival-wise besides Tyrant (and probably Archimonde as well); Xhul'horac getting an honorable mention for requiring a tight cooldown rotation.
And even on these you don't need mastery enchants or double mastery trinkets.

This whole post really seems to only be encouraging mediocrity, notwithstanding the inherent fallacy in making an argument to authority of this type.

[Kraeth]

So, it's not a discussion, it's more of a statement that if you need survivability you use the oriented trinkets and such? Next thing you'll tell me is water makes things wet when applied...

[WarpKnight]

ITT we learn that undergeared tanks stack survival stats to optimize their chances of success against hard hitting bosses.

exactly

No boss is even challenging survival-wise besides Tyrant (and probably Archimonde as well); Xhul'horac getting an honorable mention for requiring a tight cooldown rotation. This whole post really seems to only be encouraging mediocrity, notwithstanding the inherent fallacy in making an argument to authority of this type.

lol world 4th is mediocrity

[Magdalena]

I'm honestly not sure what your goal is with this post.

Nowhere on any reputable DK theorycraft board has it ever been stated that stacking Mastery as a Blood DK is not "viable". In fact, it's been explicitly stated that it's one of our strongest mitigation stats. The Blood OP in this thread even has entire gear lists and trinket combos dedicated to DKs that wish to stack survivability.

The point has, in fact, always been about the direct opposite- whether you could shed most mitigation for large damage gains and still successfully Tank most encounters on progression. As has been indisputably proven, the answer is a very solid "Yes". If the encounter is literally hitting too hard or you lack the skill, the healer externals or just the coordination to play this way, then by all means continue stacking survivability.

Do not, however, come here claiming it's a "viable alternative" in situations where (assuming the boss isn't hitting too hard itself, which hasn't been the case for 11 Mythic HFC encounters thus far) better play on your part could net your raid a pretty hefty damage gain and probably kill bosses faster.

We can debate all we want about whether or not that's "fun" for Tanks, but the original recommendation that Blood DKs that are able to survive should be focusing on DPS is an absolutely correct approach- and one other Tanking communities could stand to borrow from.

I'm not even going to comment on the inherent fallacy behind assuming that players in top ranking guilds are necessarily optimising their roles, but note that Lakiel's armoury seems to show him using Plaguebearer and the Dancing Rune Weapon glyph. Really, that should speak for itself.

[Khiyone]

If they actually did gear mastery for the first 7-8 bosses then yes, they're either lazy or mediocre. There are no issues surviving on those with MS/crit gear and BoS healing makes up for the lost mastery in most cases.

Obviously there's no way to know this for sure without actually speaking to them, which is why the premise of the OP is flawed.

[AanvilGT]

Your response simultaneously argues that stacking mastery is obviously viable (suggesting my OP is pointless) and then goes on to argue that doing so is an indication of a lack of skill. I didn't claim that stacking mastery was in any way contradictory to Troxism's guide, I didn't refer to it as an alternative, and I pointed out in my OP that progression is only one measure of success. It has been my observation that, despite Troxism's balanced advice in the guide, posters to these forums are invariably told to L2P, stack multistrike, and use BoS. In a previous thread discussing what trinkets to use, it was asserted that no top blood dks stack mastery. I find it interesting and noteworthy that at least some blood dks (perhaps less skilled or knowledgeable than posters in this forum) in very top end progression guilds continue to stack mastery and find success.

I will freely admit that, if Troxism's public logs are any proof, stacking multistrike and using BoS may be the highest possible form of blood dk tanking. However, you yourself have pointed out what an outlier Troxism's parses are, and also made a very compelling argument that: "People often get the wrong impression about Blood survivability due to how powerful it can look when an overgeared DK is attempting easy content- I can assure you that the story is quite different when doing content at its appropriate level."

[Magdalena]

Your response simultaneously argues that stacking mastery is obviously viable (suggesting my OP is pointless) and then goes on to argue that doing so is an indication of a lack of skill. I didn't claim that stacking mastery was in any way contradictory to Troxism's guide, I didn't refer to it as an alternative, and I pointed out in my OP that progression is only one measure of success. It has been my observation that, despite Troxism's balanced advice in the guide, posters to these forums are invariably told to L2P, stack multistrike, and use BoS. In a previous thread discussing what trinkets to use, it was asserted that no top blood dks stack mastery. I find it interesting and noteworthy that at least some blood dks (perhaps less skilled or knowledgeable than posters in this forum) in very top end progression guilds continue to stack mastery and find success.

I will freely admit that, if Troxism's public logs are any proof, stacking multistrike and using BoS may be the highest possible form of blood dk tanking. However, you yourself have pointed out what an outlier Troxism's parses are, and also made a very compelling argument that: "People often get the wrong impression about Blood survivability due to how powerful it can look when an overgeared DK is attempting easy content- I can assure you that the story is quite different when doing content at its appropriate level."

Viable =/= Optimal.

Theorycraft and gearing suggestions on these forums, for better or worse, inevitably focus on obtaining the maximum possible result with one's spec (especially in relation to the raid itself). Yes, Mastery gearing is "viable"- that does not mean that it is the default recommendation that guides or knowledgeable players should make without first pointing out that bypassing it for BoS builds is an even stronger option. Moreover, personal skill was only one of the factors I mentioned- it's very possible that your raid lacks a good healing comp, just coordinates poorly or is up against a boss that hits too hard (thus far "too hard" doesn't seem to be the case for most bosses as evidenced by top BoS logs).

Yes, some well-progressed players stack Mastery. So? They could either be misinformed or simply not care about the damage contribution they're losing out on- that doesn't make their choices any less damaging to their raid. Troxism's guide continually enforces the correct approach: If you find you can't survive for whatever reason, increase your mitigative gearing. This isn't a slight at a player's skill, but a simple acknowledgement that what's optimal might not work for them. That does not, however, change the definition or reality behind what is optimal.

Last point: Troxism is certainly an outlier in how much damage he's able to pull off- that doesn't mean that his example is a bad one to try and follow. Encouraging players to consider their potential DPS contribution to their raid is healthy for aspiring Tanks to take on greater raid responsibility and also challenge themselves to survive with less benefit- this is a strong reason behind why Mastery gearing tends to be placed behind MS/BoS in any forum that discusses theory.

[Deleted]

Progress = you equip whatever items you get. You don't get to choose. You equip whatever you get your hands on because it has a higher ilvl and it's extremely unlikely that a lower ilvl item is better.

idk how this is a hard concept to grasp.

[Saiyendra]

Progress = you equip whatever items you get. You don't get to choose. You equip whatever the fuck drops because it has a higher ilvl and it's extremely unlikely that a lower ilvl item is better.

idk how this is a hard concept to grasp.

Uhhhh, choice of gems/enchants is being discussed. You have full control over this. The OP is giving examples of DKs that choose to enchant mastery.

[AanvilGT]

No boss is even challenging survival-wise besides Tyrant (and probably Archimonde as well); Xhul'horac getting an honorable mention for requiring a tight cooldown rotation.
And even on these you don't need mastery enchants or double mastery trinkets.

This whole post really seems to only be encouraging mediocrity, notwithstanding the inherent fallacy in making an argument to authority of this type.

I believe the relevant question in this forum is "What tactics, gearing, talents, etc. will help me to perform my role and to defeat the available raid content most expeditiously?" There is a longstanding and somewhat philosophical debate as to where tanks should draw the line between survival and dps. On one hand, maximizing dps while surviving the fight is obviously the best possible end result and is largely the preference of posters in this forum. On the other hand, focusing more on survival than might be necessary for a perfect parse can reduce healer load and reduce the overall number of wipes caused by mistakes or random damage spikes, thus saving real world time to work on progress.

I have not provided an appeal to authority, such as arguing that A famous blood dk says we should all stack mastery so it must be true despite evidence to the contrary. I have cited very limited evidence that, to date, those blood dks who have completed the available raid content most expeditiously appear to have used a gearing and talent approach focused on survival which, by my observation, is contrary to the advice of many of the most prolific and outspoken contributors to this forum.

[Eetabee]

Uhhhh, choice of gems/enchants is being discussed. You have full control over this. The OP is giving examples of DKs that choose to enchant mastery.

This is true, but if you get higher ilvl gear that doesn't have ms then no need to enchant and gem for more.

[Resurgo]

... I have cited very limited evidence that, to date, those blood dks who have completed the available raid content most expeditiously appear to have used a gearing and talent approach focused on survival which, by my observation, is contrary to the advice of many of the most prolific and outspoken contributors to this forum.

Put in most simplest terms... "duh"

As someone else mentioned, noone said survival stacking isn't viable.


Sorry, if I sound overly harsh. I think most of us is simply wondering why bother with this post?

Those particular tanks may feel they'd rather make it through the mechanics and have their raid's dps carry them. That's fine too. Obviously, it's worked for them.

In the end, it's still in the hands of the individual on how they want to gear. Troxism's posts actually are quite thorough and lead any Blood DK down a viable path whether it's for survival or for dps. The more outspoken DK's tanks here generally push for dps because, why not? If you can survive and contribute to a faster kill, why's that bad?

Outside of these forums, the majority of tanks that I ever come across definitely lean more towards the thought process; "It's not my job to do damage, it's the dps' job".

[AanvilGT]

Frankly, I don't see the huge gains from BoS this tier. It seems to be far more of a borderline dps increase for most dk tanks. Troxism is not the only blood dk using BoS, but he is the only one getting 20k dps more than anyone else in the public logs. Lazel (now Lazelina raiding with Danish Terrace) is a very well respected tank and frequent contributor to these forums, more than capable of top dps parses as a tank and currently number 2 on warcraftlogs blood dk allstars. He has used BoS on many fights and gotten top 10 parses this tier, but nothing out of line with the top parses of others using defile. In fact, Lazel's top 10 parses on Assault, Tyrant and Mannoroth were obtained using a defile build combined with double mastery trinkets.

If this were athletics, we would all quietly ask whether Troxism is juicing.

[Deleted]

I fucking love mastery as blood. Stupid uptime on BS because they're always so big. 78% or so on Komrok

[Resurgo]

...
If this were athletics, we would all quietly ask whether Troxism is juicing.

nah, I haven't looked at his logs (likely because I'd hate myself for being that much crappier than he is...) though if I were to take a guess, I'm going to bet some of it is promoting "bad gameplay". An example would be to make sure that he's always got whatever encounter's adds all focused on him to make sure he's parrying as much as possible to increase the amount of auto attack multi-strikes gained.

Basically, some of us DK's will try to figure out any way to twist encounter mechanics to our advantage

[Deleted]

Magdalena sums it up pretty neatly. The top guilds prefer tanks focusing on tanking stuff rather than doing shit loads of DPS. However since the nerfs to Breath of Sindragosa and chains of ice glyph there's a shift to a more traditional blood DK playstyle of stacking mastery and going full surviability.

[Khiyone]

There is a longstanding and somewhat philosophical debate as to where tanks should draw the line between survival and dps. On one hand, maximizing dps while surviving the fight is obviously the best possible end result and is largely the preference of posters in this forum. On the other hand, focusing more on survival than might be necessary for a perfect parse can reduce healer load and reduce the overall number of wipes caused by mistakes or random damage spikes, thus saving real world time to work on progress.

This isn't really true. Blood DKs differ from other tanks in that gearing for survivability doesn't actually do much. You won't save yourself from a mistake by gearing for mastery, or require less externals (discounting use of mastery trinkets, but I'm specifically referring to prioritizing mastery on gear). At best you will experience a slightly smoother intake of damage, but keep in mind that most encounters do not threaten you from normal damage so what you do on easier parts of the fight is basically irrelevant. At worst you are costing yourself survivability because you're losing an amazing defensive cooldown in BoS.

I have not provided an appeal to authority, such as arguing that A famous blood dk says we should all stack mastery so it must be true despite evidence to the contrary. I have cited very limited evidence that, to date, those blood dks who have completed the available raid content most expeditiously appear to have used a gearing and talent approach focused on survival which, by my observation, is contrary to the advice of many of the most prolific and outspoken contributors to this forum.

These are basically the same thing. It's a flawed argument, and you say that they meet with "success" by killing the bosses. WoD encounters don't rely on the tanks playing well; you just need to survive as tank DPS has very little relevance, and survivability is very easy on almost every boss.

Frankly, I don't see the huge gains from BoS this tier. It seems to be far more of a borderline dps increase for most dk tanks.

Because no one aside from Troxism is actually playing BoS well on progression.

Assault, Tyrant and Mannoroth were obtained using a defile build combined with double mastery trinkets.

Assault - AoE encounter, padding.
Velhari and Mannoroth have like 3 public parses at the moment.

[Iysdexia]

Dude is probably stacking mastery to cut down on tank deaths. He's cutting out potential wipes to overall reduce time spent wiping during this world race.

Or dude is just bad and can't use BoS properly to do lots more damage so he's chosen to go about a much more lazy build. Or dude is trolling because he knows people will be looking him up after getting a M Archimonde kill.

Regardless of this guy's choices, the argument for what build to choose comes down to these simple questions:

Are you dying a lot to mechanics beyond your control? Then stack more defensive stats, like mastery.

Is your survivability fine at all times and/or you don't care about potential wipes due to unlikely tank deaths? Then stack multistrike and use BoS to do tons more damage.