Priority of getting trinkets for UH

[Urioh]

If I have legendary ring and EDH, but no Vial, should I run BoS or Defile for singletarget?

BoS with EDH friend

[Deleted]

Well the rp increase was only for blood so for unholy its still the same as in BRF.

The story around BoS has a bit to do with the whole situation I think. At the evry beginning unholy was basically the AoE spec. Frost was just so much stronger initially that unholy couls only shine in a big sustained AoE scenario and NP is the go to. Even after the enrfs and now parses on some fights for unholy are quite low due to frost beign viable and competitve with unholy ST. SO the prime reason for those players to play unholy is again teh advanatge of NP.
Its also that unholy didn't get quite the attention at the beginning due to frosts dominance and by now many infos are outdated because things didn't turn out as expected.

The big discussion around BoS started when the legendary ring kicked in as you can line them up and as the rign provides a substantial amount of your damage everything you cna line up with it gets really really strong. While BoS was already go to for ST and light cleave like in BRF thi spronounced BoS so much that its nothing to overlook anymore, not even for the ones who play frost for ST.
Because tbh without the ring unholy BoS and frost dw are pretty similar for ST, so for someone who plays both specs its not really a big deal to find out how to exactly optimize unholy ST damage. But if suddenly unholy gets the edge or seemingly does so, you might look more closely if you want to optmize and a lot of people want to.

There were also some things wrong with simcraft for a while, str trinkets got gutted at the beginning of 6.2 and the rings were excluded from sims until they were accessible ingame. And a sit turned out now, all those changes and how reality plays out just benefits unholy BoS very well. We could even reach points with the upgrading legendary ring where we play BoS on all encounters, as the burst will be extremely significant and any form of adds will just evaporate.

And also for BoS. You really don't want to DT before BoS if you can't pre soak. The delay is absolutely not worth it for 2-3 seconds faster DT. Ideally you're belf and can just mask the global for DT with torrent or line it up with ams soaking. Especially with the ring its incredibly improtant to get BoS into the damage window as its your biggest burst CD and far more important than for instance gargoyle or ghoul damage.

Hi Raikh, so helpful to read all your comments on the encounters and trinkets
I'v viewed your logs on WCL.
As one of the top DKs, you use BOS for most encounters, except Xul, Mannoroth and assault.
But in my mind and from the WCL, Bos seems to be dominant only for Reaver and Zakun, pure ST fights (may also used for Velhari).
So what's your practice experiences about Bos for other encounters?
Is the legendary ring mandatory for playing Bos?
Before getting the ring, is NP more solid (also for ST fights)?

[Deleted]

Hi Raikh, so helpful to read all your comments on the encounters and trinkets
I'v viewed your logs on WCL.
As one of the top DKs, you use BOS for most encounters, except Xul, Mannoroth and assault.
But in my mind and from the WCL, Bos seems to be dominant only for Reaver and Zakun, pure ST fights (may also used for Velhari).
So what's your practice experiences about Bos for other encounters?
Is the legendary ring mandatory for playing Bos?
Before getting the ring, is NP more solid (also for ST fights)?

Reaver,kormok,kilrogg,socrethar,iskar,zakuun,velhari all great BoS fight's and yes it's still highly viable even without the ring just like it was in BRF, just need to get back on AMS soaking instead of exploiting with nitro.

Luckily these encounters have plenty to soak and fuel BoS

Some of them also allow you to start with full RP since you can pull & reset the boss.

[Raikh]

BoS is dominant for ST even without the ring but the ring greatly amplifies that, so it really becomes a huge gain over the other talents.

As said above Reaver, Kilrogg, Gorefiend (hc), Socrethar, Zakuun and tyrant are all great BoS fights. But for msot other fights there simply either strategies or situation where you can perform pretty well with BoS aswell.
For instance we played on mythic iskar the strat of bursting the extra add down before it uses its ability, effectively taking the mythic only mechanic out of the fight. As we needed burst and always waited for the ring when triggering the add phases. Given that we performed quite badly outside of those add phases and the fight lasted incredibly long due to that I would suspect being able to beat the 100k on that fight also with BoS, which makes it effectively viable for atleast decent rankings. NP has way more potential there depending on how the adds live in the end but the stronger the ring grows over the weeks the more powerful will BoS become on that fight and might eventually take over in the long run.

Same for council, currently you can get a lot of damage from NP when getting it on all blademaster images making it very potent, even to the point its worth using reapers harvest. But the faster those images die the more worthile will be BoS because BoS is stronger for pure boss damage and BoS is beating NP up to 3 targets. Additionally fel rage on BoS is incredibly scary as it gives you resources which alone carries BoS thorugh the fel rage resulting in absolutely crazy damage on gurtogg.

In the end you want BoS for light cleave and ST fights and the more dominant the ring burst becomes the more likely it is that BoS becomes viable on other encounters. I could even imagine playing BoS on gorefiend mythic in th elong run as you can still do souls with BB spam + normal diseases and you can burst sooooo much more with BoS in the feast phase its not even funny.

[Ganom]

With all this talk about trinkets, I wanted to see how they compared. So I used the python script from altered time and changed it to work for dks. Please inform me if I left anything out!

If you dont have python on your computer, use repl.it/BA52

from itertools import combinations

source_profile = "armory=us,server,name"

trinket_list = [ ("unending_hunger,id=124236,bonus_id=567", "M-UnendingHunger"),
("empty_drinking_horn,id=124238,bonus_id=567", "M-DrinkingHorn"),
("rumbling_pebble,id=124235,bonus_id=567", "M-Pebble"),
("reapers_harvest,id=124513,bonus_id=567", "M-ReapersHarvest"),
("discordant_chorus,id=124237,bonus_id=567", "M-Chorus"),
("vial_of_convulsive_shadows,id=113969,bonus_id=567", "M-Vial"),
("unending_hunger,id=124236,bonus_id=566", "H-UnendingHunger"),
("empty_drinking_horn,id=124238,bonus_id=566", "H-DrinkingHorn"),
("rumbling_pebble,id=124235,bonus_id=566", "H-Pebble"),
("reapers_harvest,id=124513,bonus_id=566", "H-ReapersHarvest"),
("discordant_chorus,id=124237,bonus_id=566", "H-Chorus"),
("unending_hunger,id=124236", "N-UnendingHunger"),
("empty_drinking_horn,id=124238", "N-DrinkingHorn"),
("rumbling_pebble,id=124235", "N-Pebble"),
("reapers_harvest,id=124513", "N-ReapersHarvest"),
("discordant_chorus,id=124237", "N-Chorus"),
("chipped_soul_prism,id=124545", "N-ChippedSoul"),
("stone_of_the_elements,id=128024", "S6-Stone")]


profile = source_profile + "\n"
profile += "default_actions=1\n"
profile += "\n".join( "\n".join([ "copy=" + combo[0][1] + "_" + combo[1][1],
"trinket1=" + combo[0][0],
"trinket2=" + combo[1][0] ])
for combo in combinations(trinket_list, 2)
if combo[0][0].split(",")[1] != combo[1][0].split(",")[1] )

print(profile)

[Deleted]

With all this talk about trinkets, I wanted to see how they compared. So I used the python script from altered time and changed it to work for dks. Please inform me if I left anything out!

If you dont have python on your computer, use repl.it/ BAUE

I have run the sim before. The top trinket in simc results will be EDH no matter a patchwerk fight or helterskelter fight (with constant movements and adds).
So I think there is huge gap between the results from current version of Simc (6.2.0) and the real HFC fights.

[ghost hardware]

And also for BoS. You really don't want to DT before BoS if you can't pre soak. The delay is absolutely not worth it for 2-3 seconds faster DT. Ideally you're belf and can just mask the global for DT with torrent or line it up with ams soaking. Especially with the ring its incredibly improtant to get BoS into the damage window as its your biggest burst CD and far more important than for instance gargoyle or ghoul damage.

I wish DT wasn't apart of the GCD D:

[sunbrother]

I have run the sim before. The top trinket will be EDH no matter a patchwerk fight or helterskelter fight (with constant movements and adds).
So I think there is huge gap between the results from current version of Simc (6.2.0) and the real HFC fights.

Just to clarify you are saying sims are showing EDH, but in practice it's almost never optimal.

[Azlo]

Man. BoS is a whole new ball game.

I am struggling so hard with it. I have a WA to tell me to pool resources, but it's the maintenance of it that kills me.

A) I accidentally hit death coil because that's what I usually do.
B) I run out of GCD's and my BoS runs out (like if I use a sudden doom proc or am spamming scourge strike).
C) I need to move and my BoS no longer faces the boss.
D) random encounter mechanics... ARRGH.
E) Doing normal UH stuff for the other 1:40.

Anyone have tips? I have a WA that warns me when BoS is about to come up in 20s, but that's the only aid I have. Is it just pure practice?

[Deleted]

Just to clarify you are saying sims are showing EDH, but in practice it's almost never optimal.

Oh, yes. Changed that, thanks.

[Raikh]

620-03 has the correct results for EDH. In earlier versions EDH was triggered by necrosis which increased the procs value by roughly 50% but its not actually proccing from necrosis so its far less potent than those sims have shown so far and in combination with the legednary ring its led to Vial + UeH ending up BiS for us and EDh dropping in third place.

[Deleted]

620-03 has the correct results for EDH. In earlier versions EDH was triggered by necrosis which increased the procs value by roughly 50% but its not actually proccing from necrosis so its far less potent than those sims have shown so far and in combination with the legednary ring its led to Vial + UeH ending up BiS for us and EDh dropping in third place.

620-03 has released? where can we download it? The download page of simc is still showing 620-02...

[Raikh]

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D

On the download page is a link where you can find more regulairy updated versions which are uploaded every few days when some hotfixes are applied and the newest version from aug 2 contains the necrosis fix for edh.

[Deleted]

Thanks a lot

[Piz813]

I'd like to add from personal exp-

Last night on my H Archie kill I tried a few different trinket combinations. Took what I read here and another thread on these forums and agreed that H Archie was basically a ST fight until P2 pretty much. Ditched the AoE cleave trinkets and went with Unending Hunger and Mythic Vail. Did 10-13k more DPS
Even with the ring not pairing up with Vial, its still great until higher ilevel HFC trinkets IMO

Ring not lining up meaning I was waiting for DT before I popped vial, Blood Fury, and of course Gargoyle

Hope this helps others

- - - Updated - - -

Man. BoS is a whole new ball game.

I am struggling so hard with it. I have a WA to tell me to pool resources, but it's the maintenance of it that kills me.

A) I accidentally hit death coil because that's what I usually do.
B) I run out of GCD's and my BoS runs out (like if I use a sudden doom proc or am spamming scourge strike).
C) I need to move and my BoS no longer faces the boss.
D) random encounter mechanics... ARRGH.
E) Doing normal UH stuff for the other 1:40.

Anyone have tips? I have a WA that warns me when BoS is about to come up in 20s, but that's the only aid I have. Is it just pure practice?

its gonna take some practice! on H Fel Lord one time I AMS soaked the first big purple arc and BoS my ass off and the 2nd time I ate a axe to the face! Fel reaver i a great place to start learning how to BoS. build up 85-100 RP before barrage, pop BoS and then AMS, stand in fire to fuel BoS, PL and FS FS since FS gives us the most RP back, ERW and spam any buttons to get more RP, pop Vial of Convulsive Shadows at some poit to get more MS procs!

I suck at BoS but am learning now cause honestly I thought the cost went up for all specs, not just blood. Game changer!@

[Jaset100]

Little help please as I've decided to transition back to uh. I have the following trinkets and I'd like to know which ones I should be using and why for ST and AoE. Currently I plan on using NP/UB for the recommended AoE encounters and PL/Defile for the ST fights. I've read the comments above regarding BoS and will work on effective use of this talent in the near future. Until then...

M-Vial
H-UnendingHunger
H-Pebble
N-DrinkingHorn
N Warforged-Chorus


Additionally,
The Unholy guide on Son of a Lich mentions Mastery: Dreadblade. Is this ability current?


Thanks,
Jasè - US - Blackrock - 13/13H 1/13M

[Deleted]

hey raikh i have a question about gear...
i was playing frost all the mythic progress that patch... but i see that unholy is getting better again and wants to try it... the problem ist i see alot of top people on worldoflogs either go full MULTI or full MASTERY....
what is the best solution?
in my oppinion is that pure singletarger fights for BOS multi should be better but with at least 2 more adds mastery is getting much better....
or do u disagree`?

the problem is i cant get new games etc every fight
but most of the top people on logs are all mastery on singletarget fights too....

THX for helping

[Raikh]

@jaset100
Concerning BoS. Its quite a bit ahead of defile on ST so its really worth working towards using it.

From your current choice I would most likely use Vial + unending hunger for all scenarios. UeH is generally a very strong trinket for unholy for both ST and AoE and is BiS for ST and if its beaten for AoE then only by either reapers harvest if it can be used effectively or Discordant chorus on hc/mythic if you have quite a number of targets you can all hit consistently throughout the fight.
Vial is, especially with leg ring and BoS a very strong ST trinket but due to its comparably high stat budget also pretty solid in general. For AoE its pretty much the same as for UeH, its good but there are potentially better options in the long run but probably not among the ones you have currently available.

And yes dreadblade is unholy's current mastery and simply increases our shadow damage done.

@mylasher
If you want to gull full unholy MS is the clear winner. Mastery gets very strong on AoE but its in most situations even there about equal with MS rather than really better and for ST and cleave MS is significantly ahead.
Going for a mastery route with unholy normally means that you want to play frost on ST/cleave bosses and switch to unholy for AoE fights which quite a few have done during progression as they felt that frost dw was a little bit better for ST/cleave than unholy and thisenchanting option essentially gives the best of two worlds, fully powered frost and fully powered unholy for AoE.

Things have changed a bit, especially due to the amazing synergy of BoS and the legendary ring and most likely pushed unholy ahead a bit and definitely made it a possibility to just go full unholy without drawbacks where just as i siad MS is the way to go because it still yields the AoE power but is significantly better than mastery for everything else.

[Deleted]

@jaset100
Concerning BoS. Its quite a bit ahead of defile on ST so its really worth working towards using it.

From your current choice I would most likely use Vial + unending hunger for all scenarios. UeH is generally a very strong trinket for unholy for both ST and AoE and is BiS for ST and if its beaten for AoE then only by either reapers harvest if it can be used effectively or Discordant chorus on hc/mythic if you have quite a number of targets you can all hit consistently throughout the fight.
Vial is, especially with leg ring and BoS a very strong ST trinket but due to its comparably high stat budget also pretty solid in general. For AoE its pretty much the same as for UeH, its good but there are potentially better options in the long run but probably not among the ones you have currently available.

And yes dreadblade is unholy's current mastery and simply increases our shadow damage done.

@mylasher
If you want to gull full unholy MS is the clear winner. Mastery gets very strong on AoE but its in most situations even there about equal with MS rather than really better and for ST and cleave MS is significantly ahead.
Going for a mastery route with unholy normally means that you want to play frost on ST/cleave bosses and switch to unholy for AoE fights which quite a few have done during progression as they felt that frost dw was a little bit better for ST/cleave than unholy and thisenchanting option essentially gives the best of two worlds, fully powered frost and fully powered unholy for AoE.

Things have changed a bit, especially due to the amazing synergy of BoS and the legendary ring and most likely pushed unholy ahead a bit and definitely made it a possibility to just go full unholy without drawbacks where just as i siad MS is the way to go because it still yields the AoE power but is significantly better than mastery for everything else.

THX you for answer i will stay full ms then
other questions if allowed
i dont know if it was already answered but..

i have unending hunger(hc) , EDH(hc-wf),DC(hc),RH(hc) AND vial (HC-WF-ilvl691)
what would u prefer for st aoe and other sitations?
is vial hcwf not worth using as long u dont have mythic one?

and an other very important quesiton... if u are using BOS... what do u do? are u using FS on 2x runes or are u using SS ? to get more RP?

THX

[Raikh]

Would pick UeH + vial for ST and for AoE it depends. If rh can make up atleats 9% of your damage take that as first prio. Can you hit a lot of targets with DC consistently? Then DC seems pretty good.
If you have still a lot of focus on single targets or only occasional AoE or spread AoE where DC doesn't work you want UeH.

M vial can beat M EDH if you play BoS + leg ring, so a hc wf vial should be able to beat a hc wf EDH. It should be noted though thate the difference isn't insanely huge, would just argue that more burst + slightly more overall damage is just more attractive especially when looking at many bosses having nuke phases and ofcourse the steadily increasing power of the ring.

For BoS you still want to use SS as much as possible since even one SS does more damage than one FeS. Generally you also don't have enough resources to spam FeS, so you would only end up with empty gcds and less damage rather than a longer BoS uptime. There are some situations though where you want to use FeS on death runes and that is if you have orphaned B or F runes and get other runes back before BoS expires or when you are a momentarily almost overlfowing with runes during BoS, so that you can avoid overcapping them and can chain BoS into the following rune cycle.
It also worth noting that you should avoid overcapping RP during BoS, which can easily happen after ams soaking, at the beginning of the cast or after ERW as it can potentially cost you the one tick of BoS which leads you to getting some runes back to fuel even more rp into BoS.