How to fix class stacking in rbgs

[Professor Expert]

I've stayed away from RBGs this season (although I've been asked, specifically, for my spriest) but have been having a blast on spriest in random BGs. After some of the changes they made to them, they're fairly squishy now especially with a melee on them, but if they're allowed to free cast they can melt everyone's face off very quickly. Especially geared ones.

I'd like to say I'd anticipate people would actually try to lock them down in RBGs, but who knows these days.

It's been looking to me like casters are starting to gain some steam as far as catching up to how good melee were in Warlords season 1.

You're missing out on RBGs then, because you automatically get a repeatable weekly quest that gives you a guaranteed box when you win 3 rbg games. It can have epic gear or even a mount. My friend just got a nice mount from the box. It really seems like they're trying to push players into RBGs even more than before, and you wouldn't be disappointed as a spriest.

BTW spriests are quite durable in pvp, especially if there is nobody to dispel their bubbles...esp when you combine that with the damage they can do.

[TeeZed]

This seems to be a huge problem as of late. Entered an RBG with 3 affys, 3spriests and 2rshams


Why does blizzard allow class stacking? All it does is encourage FoTM even further.

IMO they need to prevent 2 of the same spec to join an RBG. IDK exactly how htey would do that, but it needs to happen. again imo

thoughts?

It's always the nature of mmos, patches come around that make something the best in random battleground type scenarios and everyone will re-roll to that class, not to be competative, but to "Pwn noobs" Never gonna end, but on the plus side if the class that is your main becomes fotm you might be slightly better at the class than them, although the skill ceiling for almost every class is about as high as a hobbit house now, the difference between a good and bad "x" class was always noticable, you'd have to practice, not so much any more...

Back on topic, bg queues are bad enough without having to wait until every other person from your class pool has joined a queue.

[Demsi]

That's a spec, not a class. Shadow and Disc are quite effective in pvp - you're going cry that holy doesn't work for you?

Please stop equating "viable" to "optimal".



Both ret and holy are solid pvp specs for paladins, and you can even get away with prot. Don't see the problem you are blaming on ret. Seems like you need friends.

Holy is the only spec paladin spec that is viable for Rbg's, ret and prot is fine in arena and normal bg's, however in rbg's where classes matter a lot more, ret paladins are simply not viable, their damage is good, but others can do it better, their utility is also brought by holy paladins, so nothing uniqe there. Everything a ret can do, another spec can do it better, its not about the player skill, but the fact that they dont bring anything that makes them stand out. and also, please dont insult me like, it just make you look like a fool

[Filfa]

I started playing affliction warlock this season, it is broken. If you think shad is bad, you haven't seen an aff lock who can play

My typical RBG comp is:
2x Aff lock
2x FDK
1x Rogue
1x Shad
1x Boomkin
1x MW Monk
1x Hpal
1x Rdruid/Rsham

Current state of the game is disgusting

[Professor Chaos]

I started playing affliction warlock this season, it is broken. If you think shad is bad, you haven't seen an aff lock who can play

My typical RBG comp is:
2x Aff lock
2x FDK
1x Rogue
1x Shad
1x Boomkin
1x MW Monk
1x Hpal
1x Rdruid/Rsham

Current state of the game is disgusting

Yup this is pretty much the meta atm. Healers being completely over the top in pvp have basically forced RBG players to run these derp ass rot comps that just spam aids until something randomly dies. To make matters worse arenas are just a thousand different turbocleaves, Warlock/Shaman/X and mage comps that make you want to tear your hair out.

You know the game is in a pretty sad state when the most fun you can have is either playing double DPS two's or random BG's lol.

[Filfa]

Update:
6x Lock, 1x Boomkin

Rolling every team we face

Broken game is broken

[mikoslav]

Update:
6x Lock, 1x Boomkin

Rolling every team we face

Broken game is broken

I would love to see a twitch of 10 affliction warlocks Rated BG.

and then - 10 druids.

[Professor Expert]

Holy is the only spec paladin spec that is viable for Rbg's, ret and prot is fine in arena and normal bg's, however in rbg's where classes matter a lot more, ret paladins are simply not viable, their damage is good, but others can do it better, their utility is also brought by holy paladins, so nothing uniqe there. Everything a ret can do, another spec can do it better, its not about the player skill, but the fact that they dont bring anything that makes them stand out. and also, please dont insult me like, it just make you look like a fool

You can absolutely play ret in RBGs and it's perfectly viable. They bring some of the highest on-demand burst in the game and some potent off-heals, and that's not something all classes can do equally well. You're stuck in the viable = optimal rut and it's making you post out-of-touch comments like this one...the idea that there is only one functional RBG team that assures a chance of winning, while all others are losses waiting to happen is lazy and ignorant to say the least.

Lastly, you make yourself look like a fool by airing your personal insecurities if you think anything I said to you is an "insult". Sorry bro, disagreeing with the fallacies put forth in this thread is not an insult. When you have something original to say about pvp and not simply playing your part in the "i am derp _____ not viable not about skill" echo chamber, let me know and we can talk.

[Filfa]

You can absolutely play ret in RBGs and it's perfectly viable. They bring some of the highest on-demand burst in the game and some potent off-heals, and that's not something all classes can do equally well. You're stuck in the viable = optimal rut and it's making you post out-of-touch comments like this one...the idea that there is only one functional RBG team that assures a chance of winning, while all others are losses waiting to happen is lazy and ignorant to say the least.

Lastly, you make yourself look like a fool by airing your personal insecurities if you think anything I said to you is an "insult". Sorry bro, disagreeing with the fallacies put forth in this thread is not an insult. When you have something original to say about pvp and not simply playing your part in the "i am derp _____ not viable not about skill" echo chamber, let me know and we can talk.

You're missing the point

Why bring a ret when you're bringing a hpal anyway
Why bring a ret when you can bring a DK
Why bring a ret when you can bring another warlock
Why bring a ret when you can bring any class that will out damage and out utility a ret

These are the reasons you don't see people looking specifically for a ret paladin

For a ret to even pull an okay performance the skill cap is a lot higher than other classes

This game is not bring the player not the class and it never will be, at higher mmr's only certain comps are viable, it's the same with arena, it's the same with PVE

Anyway, back on topic

There is no plausible fix to class stacking, class A will always be better than class B.

[Professor Expert]

You're missing the point

Why bring a ret when you're bringing a hpal anyway

One is a DPS the other is a healer...and if you try to say HPALs can act as DPS then no, because in any competitive setting the hpal will be healing not spamming denounce.

Why bring a ret when you can bring a DK

DKs have no off-heals and poor utility outside of grip. Hand of Freedom or an extra BoP from a ret can make or break a match.

Why bring a ret when you can bring another warlock

Warlocks offer no utility either, and two warlocks means the DR on fear is going to ratchet up twice as quickly...something that could cost a match.

Why bring a ret when you can bring any class that will out damage and out utility a ret

Because damage means very little in RBGs. It's how the damage is delivered that's most important...and the "outdamage" claim you are asserting is generally misleading as it's splash damage from stuff like howling blast or other AoE spam. It inflates the total damage done but in reality offers low contribution to killing specific targets when they need to die.

A ret paladin on CDs can provide enormous burst right when it's need to finish off an FC or take out a healer in addition to the heals, hands and such that a ret provides the team.

These are the reasons you don't see people looking specifically for a ret paladin

Nobody is accusing you of not being a follower...but notice the general lack of substance in the arguments against ret. Most of them are baseless, just as they are against enhancement shaman. Ignorant players who cannot perform at an average level if they are not playing a class that is OP.

For a ret to even pull an okay performance the skill cap is a lot higher than other classes

We finally agree on something, and because a class is more difficult to play effectively doesn't mean it should be labeled as inferior. Just because you and the other ret-haters don't do well with that spec in pvp doesn't mean the spec is the problem.

This game is not bring the player not the class and it never will be, at higher mmr's only certain comps are viable, it's the same with arena, it's the same with PVE

False, and to make such a statement it would have helped if any of the points you made leading up to it were even remotely credible.

There is no plausible fix to class stacking, class A will always be better than class B.

No fix is necessary; too much of one class on a RBG team is a compromise. Class synergy is more important, and in 10v10 there are many potentail combinations of classes and specs that will work covering all classes and specs...but that would require experimentation on the player's part.

[ipoststuff]

You can absolutely play ret in RBGs and it's perfectly viable. They bring some of the highest on-demand burst in the game and some potent off-heals, and that's not something all classes can do equally well. You're stuck in the viable = optimal rut and it's making you post out-of-touch comments like this one...the idea that there is only one functional RBG team that assures a chance of winning, while all others are losses waiting to happen is lazy and ignorant to say the least.

Lastly, you make yourself look like a fool by airing your personal insecurities if you think anything I said to you is an "insult". Sorry bro, disagreeing with the fallacies put forth in this thread is not an insult. When you have something original to say about pvp and not simply playing your part in the "i am derp _____ not viable not about skill" echo chamber, let me know and we can talk.

It sounds like you dont play ret but you think they are good. Let me tell you the truth, they are not. I'm not even gonna explain because it's so obvious.

[Strear]

I disagree with the fact Rets bring less " utility " when a Hpal is already there. A second set of hands of sacrifice, protection, offheals, no pure DPS can bring that, and if you have 4 hands of sac, 4 hands of prot to protect several healers or casters from melee, 4 hands of freedom, that's not nothing !

And yes, to burst an EFC, the " on demand " burst is amazing, and not many of the " beloved " RBG classes can say they bring the same.

Finally, yes, I'm sure a part of the players who build the comps will not take a Ret " because rets are not okay ". Not because they know the pros and cons about Ret, not because they have experienced Rets in their comps, but simply because they've read somewhere that " Rets are not okay ". It's the same with humans and EMFH, I'm sure you'll read, at low MMR, that the enemy team won because " EMFH made the game ". Shortcuts.

[Illiterate]

This seems to be a huge problem as of late. Entered an RBG with ... and 2rshams

Are they actually good in rbgs this season? Haven't played most of wod.

[Avada Kedavra]

Are they actually good in rbgs this season? Haven't played most of wod.

i would say rsham/rdruid are rot comp counters.

Our team was a rot comp facing their rot team but their healer set up countered ours because of hots/shaman mastery,

[Professor Expert]

It sounds like you dont play ret but you think they are good. Let me tell you the truth, they are not. I'm not even gonna explain because it's so obvious.

I do play ret and I'm pretty good with it, but my main is an enhance shaman and I prefer the shaman mainly because it has a better feel for my play style.

If your idea of good is to say that rets are not like DKs that can spam retarded damage non-stop then I cannot disagree. The off-CD damage of ret paladins is pretty weak, but I don't think there's any class in the game that can bring the on-demand burst that ret offers in addition to all of the utility via 'hand of ___' abilities and off heals.

I disagree with the fact Rets bring less " utility " when a Hpal is already there. A second set of hands of sacrifice, protection, offheals, no pure DPS can bring that, and if you have 4 hands of sac, 4 hands of prot to protect several healers or casters from melee, 4 hands of freedom, that's not nothing !

And yes, to burst an EFC, the " on demand " burst is amazing, and not many of the " beloved " RBG classes can say they bring the same.

Finally, yes, I'm sure a part of the players who build the comps will not take a Ret " because rets are not okay ". Not because they know the pros and cons about Ret, not because they have experienced Rets in their comps, but simply because they've read somewhere that " Rets are not okay ". It's the same with humans and EMFH, I'm sure you'll read, at low MMR, that the enemy team won because " EMFH made the game ". Shortcuts.

Thank you! That's what I've been saying. People just read something somewhere and don't even try or don't give playing as ret enough time to get used to it. I can see how someone coming from a FDK to ret would be like "where's my damage!?" but that player would need to learn that you cannot play a ret as you would a FDK or hunter. They have to learn the strengths and weaknesses and then work with the tools they get.

You are also right about EMFH is being overrated. Had a long thread about this too a few months ago on here and people just don't want to hear it...they're all convinced that rolling a human equals auto-win in pvp but I'll tell you what, my dranei racial - blessing of naaru - has saved my ass more times than I can count...but most players will laugh and say it's a garbage racial.

[Avada Kedavra]

I do play ret and I'm pretty good with it, but my main is an enhance shaman and I prefer the shaman mainly because it has a better feel for my play style.

If your idea of good is to say that rets are not like DKs that can spam retarded damage non-stop then I cannot disagree. The off-CD damage of ret paladins is pretty weak, but I don't think there's any class in the game that can bring the on-demand burst that ret offers in addition to all of the utility via 'hand of ___' abilities and off heals.



Thank you! That's what I've been saying. People just read something somewhere and don't even try or don't give playing as ret enough time to get used to it. I can see how someone coming from a FDK to ret would be like "where's my damage!?" but that player would need to learn that you cannot play a ret as you would a FDK or hunter. They have to learn the strengths and weaknesses and then work with the tools they get.

You are also right about EMFH is being overrated. Had a long thread about this too a few months ago on here and people just don't want to hear it...they're all convinced that rolling a human equals auto-win in pvp but I'll tell you what, my dranei racial - blessing of naaru - has saved my ass more times than I can count...but most players will laugh and say it's a garbage racial.

EMFH is still the strongest in pvp was ws diminished when they doubled the stats on the trinkets.

gift of the naru is ok, but a tiny heal compared to emfh is a terrible comparison.

[Professor Expert]

EMFH is still the strongest in pvp was ws diminished when they doubled the stats on the trinkets.

gift of the naru is ok, but a tiny heal compared to emfh is a terrible comparison.

They halved the CD and the bonus stat provided by the on-use trinket, which was effectively a nerf to EMFH. Nobody can argue that having the stat bonus provided by the on-use and on-proc DPS trinkets up simultaneously to be the mathematically strongest configuration for burst, but it's not necessarily the best.

EMFH
Pros:
- Highest burst potential for a limited duration.
- Additional versatility from buff offers some additional damage reduction.
Cons:
- Only useful in pvp. Useless in pve.
- Does not offer utility (i.e. cannot assist a teammate)
- Half as good as it was before due to on-use trinket stat nerf.
- Must be used whenever on-proc trinket activates for full effect, thus reducing the probability that the setup will be optimal to maximize the overlapping stat buffs provided by the trinkets due to RNG.

My gift of the naaru heals for 20% of my HP over 5 seconds, which is 4% of my HP per second - or roughly 18K healing per second with my HP at 450K after pvp scaling. With nature's guardian, a shaman talent, my HP is boosted by an extra 15% on top of any buffs, so 450K * 1.15 = 517,500...and then 4% of that per second is 20.7K -- in other words, it's enough to shut down the damage of a single DPS an effectively survive for an extra 5 seconds OR if I can stop the damage altogether by LoS or CCing the one attacking me I can recover a substantial chunk of HP in a very short time. The fact that I have the option to use it on myself OR a teammate only magnifies its utility, and it can be useful in pve as well.

Point I'm trying to make here is that simply having the highest stats for a few seconds doesn't translate to a win, and the draenei racial - when used at the right times - is arguably better than EMFH in a wider variety of situations.

[Avada Kedavra]

they could use the same filter that they use when allowing only 1 tank-healer-3 dps per dungeon but expnd on it. They just choose not to do that. technically it's not very difficult.

Thats what I was thinking. I think they would almost need to limit it by spec.

they would need to limit it to 1 per class which would completely skew the favorable comps. they could limit it to no more than 2 of the same classes but then we would be in the same problem we are right now with stacking dot classes.

locking them by spec would seem to be the only way to limit it. so yes you can have 2 priests but 1 has to be a healer and the other dps/other heal spec but not the same spec as the first.

[Junilla]

queue queue with freinds and fight the stacking =D