Sub value and requirements

[Minoan]

Hey guys, mythic raider here. Created an alt rogue and in love with it. Currntly got no t18 and vessel but have a courage to ask some things if you don't mind to answer

1)method rogues were sins. Now every log entry has sub with huge numbers .are sub really better on progression than assassins with crazy execute from 4pc and vessel ?

2) what is the comfortable gear level to start trying sub? I mastered both sin and combat , they were not hard. But I mean, you can go sub anytime or preferably only after getting a combo of. 2pc/4pc/vessel/weapons /certain multistrike value ?
3)what guides should I trust'? For combat and sin, it was IV+that forum. For sub however, I read the mentioned ones and rwvenholdt, I even tried noxxic(it's as 'good"as usual ) and everything has differences in openers and glyphs. Guide me please?
4) most of the top sub rogues are wearing heavy weapons in offhand, some are wearing daggers. Blizzard allows sub to roll daggers only. What is the thing about it?

[Artorius]

Assassination strength is that it's so ridiculously easy to play that you literally can give 99% of your attention to the encounter itself. That's why some prefer to play it during progression. And it was also doing very great so...

[Eazy]

Assassination strength is that it's so ridiculously easy to play that you literally can give 99% of your attention to the encounter itself. That's why some prefer to play it during progression. And it was also doing very great so...

Many people are saying that assassination is easy to play. I agree, just as every class/spec in this game is easy to play. But it's hard to master.

[Kazzai]

Many people are saying that assassination is easy to play. I agree, just as every class/spec in this game is easy to play. But it's hard to master.

Sin is also easy to master

[Eazy]

Sin is also easy to master

No, it's not that "easy". Combat is much easier.

[Deleted]

Hey Minoan,

I don't feel like I can answer all your questions adequate, but there is quite an active rogue community over on ravenholdt.net, which you should check out if you enjoy playing rogue. You will probably find your answers there.

[Willoughby]

4) most of the top sub rogues are wearing heavy weapons in offhand, some are wearing daggers. Blizzard allows sub to roll daggers only. What is the thing about it?

Offhands aren't all that important for sub, so they're just using whatever they happen to have that has the better stats + ilvl.

[Minoan]

well thanks, Alcois and Wolloughby, for kind of answers.
You guys are really sneaky over here

[Kazzai]

No, it's not that "easy". Combat is much easier.

Each to their own really.
I find managing deep insight with adds more difficult and challenging than envenoming at 70 energy followed by 2-3 mutilates

[Deleted]

No, it's not that "easy". Combat is much easier.

Assassination for sure is easier to master than combat, because assassination has nearly nothing to manage or plan ahead (except to know when it's a good time to use vendetta). Combat isn't difficult spec to play but playing it optimally still requires more than assassination because of managing deep insight and cds. Unfortunate thing with both specs is that the gap between playing them optimally or suboptimally is very small and dps gain from playing optimally isn't very big. Subtlety is of course the most demanding of three specs even after Blizzard simplified it from earlier expansions.

To the original poster, I would say wait at least 4 piece and vessel before trying out sub. The following opener has worked great for me, don't know if it's optimal but very close to:

Premeditation 8 sec before pull > SnD/Potion 2 sec before pull > Vanish > Shadow Reflection > Rupture > Shadow Dance > Ambush. Always keep snd and rupture up and try to minimize the need to refresh them during shadow dance/find weakness so you can instead do as many ambushes/eviscerates as you can during them.

[Apaylo]

Always be sub/combat, go assn for progression runs on council,gorefiend and archimonde.. Dont bother with sssn onve everything is on farm imo

Pretty much this, sub is not that great for progressing on those bosses due to add swapping.

Altho I find combat pulling ahead for me personally on archimonde, sub on council is as good as assas with minor difference and the only thing imo is assas for mythic gorefiend.

[Deleted]

No, it's not that "easy". Combat is much easier.

Well with 4p and vessel mastering the spec flies out the window.

[Minoan]

Thank you Jarush, you are the man.

Not sure what kind of mastery you are talking about in ass, pressing mutilate in 35% range when crits from dispatch haven't supplied you with enough orbs to keep rup+envenom debuff?:P

[Eazy]

Assassination for sure is easier to master than combat, because assassination has nearly nothing to manage or plan ahead (except to know when it's a good time to use vendetta).

Nope, it's not. You need to try to keep up Envenom buff all the time, when to use Vendetta/Shadow Reflection, when to ideally refresh Rupture. When to clip Envenom, and when to not do that. Assassination being "easy" is an illusion made by people who just spam abilities senseless.

Combat isn't difficult spec to play but playing it optimally still requires more than assassination because of managing deep insight and cds. Unfortunate thing with both specs is that the gap between playing them optimally or suboptimally is very small and dps gain from playing optimally isn't very big.

That's the point, but still Assassination for me is harder to master than Combat. But... Just as I have as a warrior, I started as a tank and then had problems with Fury(yeah, fury). I fing Protection easier than Fury. But it's probably because I get used to it.

[Greylan]

Nope, it's not. You need to try to keep up Envenom buff all the time, when to use Vendetta/Shadow Reflection, when to ideally refresh Rupture. When to clip Envenom, and when to not do that. Assassination being "easy" is an illusion made by people who just spam abilities senseless.

These days it'd be more effort to try and not keep Envenom up all the time. Combat, while easy, is definitely the more difficult of the two specs. Subjectively Assassination may be more difficult for you, can grant that.

[Deleted]

Nope, it's not. You need to try to keep up Envenom buff all the time, when to use Vendetta/Shadow Reflection, when to ideally refresh Rupture. When to clip Envenom, and when to not do that. Assassination being "easy" is an illusion made by people who just spam abilities senseless.

If I read that without the context of the previous posts, I'd assume you're being sarcastic, but as I know you're being completely serious, I'm actually frightened that you mean it.

That's the point, but still Assassination for me is harder to master than Combat.

Obviously you haven't mastered Combat and you're quite some way from mastering it if you genuinely think Assassination is harder.

[Kazzai]

Seeing so many people say combat is more difficult and the 1 assass rogue defending his spec. I think we've hurt someones ego.

Im moreso against sin just cos i find it nowhere near as enjoyable to play vs sub.

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Nope, it's not. You need to try to keep up Envenom buff all the time, when to use Vendetta/Shadow Reflection, when to ideally refresh Rupture. When to clip Envenom, and when to not do that. Assassination being "easy" is an illusion made by people who just spam abilities senseless.

Im aware of how much of a dick i look like doing so, but,
Keeping envenom up is as simple as pressing 1 button at 1.8s remaining with 5 cps.
If sr/ven will last their full duration on the target, they should be used on cd.
Rupture is the same as envenom except 7.2-7.8 seconds? Using less cp ruptures if the target is gonna die soon.
You clip envenom when youre about to exceed your resources (cps,energy) max capacity. Apart from that you shouldnt clip.

Most of this is common sense imo

[Artorius]

No, it's not that "easy". Combat is much easier.

I could tell you a lot of reasons on why Combat is much deeper as a spec than Assassination, but I think you've gotten the idea with everyone else saying it...

Restless blades + Bandit's Guile alone is already arguably much harder to master than the entire Sin spec.