Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Mechagnome
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    734
    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    Yes, but it doesn't take up 100% of your DPS and Healers time moving and dealing with all this at once?

    You have a lot more DPS who AREN'T shackled, beamed and tanking the infernals who can be busy actually killing the shadows and the infernals or, you know, killing the boss.

    If you are 10 people and 3 of you are breaking shackles, 2 of you have the laser, 2 of your are tanks... you've got a whole 2 people left in the raid who can actually be focusing on their output without all that movement.

    Now compare that to a 30-man raid, with the same number of mechanics.
    Do you seriously think a 30 man raid can just ignore infernals? EVERYONE have to swap to them. There is no excuse that you can keep hitting the boss cause then you will wipe. Only cause you have a beam on you doesn't mean you can't dps.

    Shackles I can buy that it is a bit more important to break them a tiny bit earlier as it's a ticking dot ramping up.

    What movement??? Move 3 yards so the beam doesn't hit people? Move out 10-20 yards to pick up infernal if you are a meele? That is meele only. Ranged barely have to move to reach them when they spawn.

    The tuning of damage/healing around raid cds are the main problem on this boss fight. Not really the mechanics themself.
    Last edited by Xart; 2015-08-05 at 11:13 AM.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Leih's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,556
    Quote Originally Posted by Xart View Post
    Do you seriously think a 30 man raid can just ignore infernals?
    No I don't. Where did I say that? The point is that you have less people having to actively Taunt/Tank/Kite them... which means a higher proportion of people able to just stand and nuke the infernal. It's not about the amount of people having to switch to them... it's that you have more people free to actually be doing the DPS. In a 10-man, all of your raid team is so busy running around handling the mechanics that you've got no one left to actually be focusing killing the damn things.

    Can it be dealt with? Yes of course it can. It's not impossible. You can continue to do decent DPS while carefully moving for the beam, or dps on the run while you busy breaking your shackle... But not everyone is fully capable of maintaining 100% focus on their DPS and rotation while also being affected by other mechanics simultaneously which require movement and personal CDs. You could argue "Well git gud, you don't deserve to kill the boss." Fair enough... but how come if I take 2x as many people nobody has to improve their play, because the individual standard required is so much lower?

    The point isn't that 10-man is impossible and you need 20+ people to kill the boss. The point is that with more people the mechanics are FAR more forgiving. You shouldn't require everyone in the raid to play at an individually higher level just because you are smaller group.
    Last edited by Leih; 2015-08-05 at 12:13 PM.

  3. #23
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Hall of the Guardians
    Posts
    2,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    Fair enough... but how come if I take 2x as many people nobody has to improve their play, because the individual standard required is so much lower?
    I think this stems from an imperfect scaling issue. Enemy HP doesn't scale as well up compared to players DPS scaling and as a result, the DPS threshold becomes generally lower in larger groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    The point is that with more people the mechanics are FAR more forgiving. You shouldn't require everyone in the raid to play at an individually higher level just because you are smaller group.
    Unless the fight mechanic is related to spacing. In which case a smaller team might be better off. (Maybe).

    Nevertheless, it does seem that for HFC, the best raid size runs somewhere between 15~20 people. Assume all of them are decent players. The problem has typically been the latter.
    ---
    Don't be a victim of IFOWISNAWL!
    Call 800-Calm-The-F-Down, Operators are standing by. Now taking calls on all your Legion worries.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord Leih's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,556
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Unless the fight mechanic is related to spacing. In which case a smaller team might be better off. (Maybe).
    In theory, yeah, this has been the case in some encounters in the past for sure. Al'Akir is still the best example! But, hmm, I wouldn't really say it's much of a big factor in any encounters in HFC. Most of the fight areas are pretty sizable and there aren't a lot of them where you need to spread out to such a degree that having less people makes it easier. Only possible example off the top of my head perhaps first phase in Tyrant? But I think the extra people and cooldowns for mitigating Edict make up for it anyway.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Hall of the Guardians
    Posts
    2,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    In theory, yeah, this has been the case in some encounters in the past for sure. Al'Akir is still the best example! But, hmm, I wouldn't really say it's much of a big factor in any encounters in HFC. Most of the fight areas are pretty sizable and there aren't a lot of them where you need to spread out to such a degree that having less people makes it easier. Only possible example off the top of my head perhaps first phase in Tyrant? But I think the extra people and cooldowns for mitigating Edict make up for it anyway.
    Maybe Mannoroth if you couldn't use the pillars to prevent the fear mechanic? (Which eventually happens later in the fight).
    ---
    Don't be a victim of IFOWISNAWL!
    Call 800-Calm-The-F-Down, Operators are standing by. Now taking calls on all your Legion worries.

  6. #26
    Yeah, I agree. Raiding with a 10-13 players setup myself. Normal and heroic are just harder for smaller groups than for larger ones.
    Now, I'm not saying it is overtuned but it is badly tuned.
    And OP, you should probably go with 3 healers as there are that many DPS checks.

  7. #27
    Brewmaster Wvvtayy's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    New Jersey, US
    Posts
    1,250
    Quote Originally Posted by Thereaperszone View Post
    No it isn't how it should be at all.

    Anyways imo they really don't care about any scaling issues or tuning unless its mythic for the most part. BRF scaled horribly as well for a while then they fixed it somewhat. They really need to fix things for the smaller groups you really shouldn't get the same amount of say bombs and other things in a 10 vs 20/30.
    Yes. It is how it should be. Think of it this way, if it was easier for smaller groups, then the solution would be to downsize the group and exclude people if you're stuck on a boss. Blizzard has explicitly stated this goes against the reasons they created the flex system. If it's easier for larger groups, then you're encouraged to include more people rather than exclude them. Blizzard has said it's intended that it be a bit easier for larger groups for this very reason.

  8. #28
    My guild has been doing ~10-12 since release and stuff like Heroic HFA was ridiculous before the nerf. We have killed Kil'rogg on heroic before but it usually took us a few wipes first but this week we raided with another guild so we had around 17/18 and we 1 shot it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wvvtayy View Post
    Yes. It is how it should be. Think of it this way, if it was easier for smaller groups, then the solution would be to downsize the group and exclude people if you're stuck on a boss. Blizzard has explicitly stated this goes against the reasons they created the flex system. If it's easier for larger groups, then you're encouraged to include more people rather than exclude them. Blizzard has said it's intended that it be a bit easier for larger groups for this very reason.
    I do agree but it's not always possible because not everyone wants to just invite a bunch of random pugs into their guild group. On the other hand though, if I was running a pug I would try to get 20-30 people not that stupid 2/4/9 comp that people won't break.
    Last edited by shyguybman; 2015-08-05 at 06:20 PM.

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,015
    I'm going to assume you're referring to heroic Iron Reaver since normal Pounding is like 40k total damage.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    I'm going to assume you're referring to heroic Iron Reaver since normal Pounding is like 40k total damage.
    Pounding does like 120k per person, not 40k. It also pushes fire around, so that plus people not being topped off from artillery exploding does make it a credible threat till you outgear it, even on normal.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,015
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Pounding does like 120k per person, not 40k. It also pushes fire around, so that plus people not being topped off from artillery exploding does make it a credible threat till you outgear it, even on normal.
    I'm pretty sure the first time I saw Pounding on normal, at 683 ilvl, I double-checked to make sure there wasn't some bug and we were actually on LFR difficulty. There is zero difficulty, especially for a small raid, on iron reaver. In fact, a small raid makes this fight easier since it's more natural to spread 10 players than 25. 25 just increases the damage taken from those who fail to spread out.

    It's fair to say Archimonde is relatively difficult for small groups due to handling both portals and infernals simultaneously. But Iron Reaver?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    I'm pretty sure the first time I saw Pounding on normal, at 683 ilvl, I double-checked to make sure there wasn't some bug and we were actually on LFR difficulty. There is zero difficulty, especially for a small raid, on iron reaver. In fact, a small raid makes this fight easier since it's more natural to spread 10 players than 25. 25 just increases the damage taken from those who fail to spread out.

    It's fair to say Archimonde is relatively difficult for small groups due to handling both portals and infernals simultaneously. But Iron Reaver?
    I wasn't making any kind of statement about raid size, just talking about the numbers for pounding. If your whole raid was 683 ilvl and pounding didn't appear to be doing any significant damage, it means you have really good healers. Which is not impossible by any means, especially if you do mythic.

    Though I totally disagree with what you say about raid size in regards to Iron Reaver. The spreading mechanic is fairly irrelevant, and artillery doesn't scale with raid size, so at 10 players almost have of the non-tanks in your raid have to move for that shit.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •