So whats the consensus on T18 4pc for Holy? Worth it or no? too many clouded answers.

[Deleted]

Thank you very much Redsparow for putting the math to what a lot of us suspected was true, T17 2pc + T18 2pc is the way to go. Hopefully Blizzard can see this and buff the T18 4pc accordingly.

Welp, time to jump back into MBRF =D

Well a bit too late for that, don't you think? I am almost done with the raid progress, and most of us are half way done

[Rici]

So, item level upgrade will come with 6.2.3, but only for citadel items... Our two "beloved" t17 pieces will stay on iLvl 700 (or even 685 in very sad cases). Does this change the math, according that item drops from citadel could go up to level 741?

[Djriff]

Well i haven't done any math, but i would be willing to bet that you'll just end up dropping t17 2pc(as most of us do now in mythic) and just go for off pieces.

[Cromatus]

They should just buff either the archimonde trinket or the t18 setbonus for holy -.-

[Deleted]

Have they said you won't be able to upgrade the t17 items? Either way I don't think it's going to change anything, the t17 2 piece is just THAT good (on most fights)

[Isheria]

Not if it's 35 ilvl lower, i don't even use it right now because i do more healing most of the time with the 18 4p and the 25 ilvl difference than i did with the t17 2p. Brf items can't be upgraded anyway.

[Djriff]

Red do you have the approximate healing value of the t17 2pc somewhere? Would really like to see the math behind it vs a 741 piece.

[Deleted]

Red do you have the approximate healing value of the t17 2pc somewhere? Would really like to see the math behind it vs a 741 piece.

Check out my previous post on the first page, it's not super specific since it's healing but should be a not awful guideline for max throughput scenarios (like Zakuun type fights). If you want to give it a star weight then just convert to versatility, 1% healing is worth 130 vers

[Deleted]

Sorry to open this up again. But when you talk about trading T18 with Mythic T17 are those T18 Heroic or Mythic?

For example if i would trade my hc wf T18 gloves > T17 Mythic i lose out on 38 int, is it really worth?
Also lose 31 int going from heroic T18 chest > T17 Mythic.
Trying to get the Mythic T17 shoulders tonight but i really dont see trading my 726 off piece head or Mythic T18 gemmed legs with T17.

Edit:

I forgot i do got 2 Mythic HFC off pieces ilvl 725 (chest/gloves...damn you cache!) that i cant use for Disc as ill lose my 4 set, wich sounds alot better for me. I just dont really believe a trade off of more then 140+ int can really be worth against those extra PoM´s :P

[Deleted]

Sorry to open this up again. But when you talk about trading T18 with Mythic T17 are those T18 Heroic or Mythic?

For example if i would trade my hc wf T18 gloves > T17 Mythic i lose out on 38 int, is it really worth?
Also lose 31 int going from heroic T18 chest > T17 Mythic.
Trying to get the Mythic T17 shoulders tonight but i really dont see trading my 726 off piece head or Mythic T18 gemmed legs with T17.

Edit:

I forgot i do got 2 Mythic HFC off pieces ilvl 725 (chest/gloves...damn you cache!) that i cant use for Disc as ill lose my 4 set, wich sounds alot better for me. I just dont really believe a trade off of more then 140+ int can really be worth against those extra PoM´s :P

Yup, talking about mythic t18. The t17 pieces are fully BiS this tier. The only time you should consider not using t17 is if your t17 items are LOWER quality than your t18 items. eg, you have normal t17 pieces and mythic t18 pieces. Even then it's probably close tbh (I'd consider using t18 instead in this scenario simply for the added survival / stamina, rather than any kind of healing increase)
The t17 2 piece bonus is just a huge boost to throughput and it's very hard to beat it from just raw stats.

Obviously if you're in a scenario where PoM won't bounce then you may wish to drop the bonus for something else although I can't think of many (any?) scenarios this tier where PoM won't bounce whilst your healing throughput actually matters.

For reference the t17 2pc is approx a 12% overall healing increase in a 'perfect' scenario (check first page) which equates to 1560 versatility, which using my stat weights is the equivalent of 2437.5 int. The 140 int you mention doesn't even come close

[Deleted]

Yup, talking about mythic t18. The t17 pieces are fully BiS this tier. The only time you should consider not using t17 is if your t17 items are LOWER quality than your t18 items. eg, you have normal t17 pieces and mythic t18 pieces. Even then it's probably close tbh (I'd consider using t18 instead in this scenario simply for the added survival / stamina, rather than any kind of healing increase)
The t17 2 piece bonus is just a huge boost to throughput and it's very hard to beat it from just raw stats.

Obviously if you're in a scenario where PoM won't bounce then you may wish to drop the bonus for something else although I can't think of many (any?) scenarios this tier where PoM won't bounce whilst your healing throughput actually matters.

For reference the t17 2pc is approx a 12% overall healing increase in a 'perfect' scenario (check first page) which equates to 1560 versatility, which using my stat weights is the equivalent of 2437.5 int. The 140 int you mention doesn't even come close

Wow really? Thats really insane, hope i get either mythic shoulders or gloves tonight then. Its just an offspec for when they bring our other disc priest along if we would lack healers but i always like to be prepared as much as possible.

Thank you for the reply

[Deleted]

I made a derp and divided the wrong way when converting versatility to int!

1560 versatility is the equivalent to 1045 int, not 2437.5 :P

but the point is the same

[DevilsAdvocate]

The T17 bonus increases the healing of prayer of mending by 80% and the spell itself usually constitutes 12 to 15% of your healing in logs. The bonus itself also synergies well with your other talents mainly echo of light which can bounce to more targets and proc twist of fate for example.

Redsparow's analysis is right. You'd only replace normal pieces of t17 with mythic brf gear and if you have heroic, you keep it and if you have mythic brf t17 you definitely keep it. The bonus is worth literally 45 item levels, it's that good.

[Rfx]

As soon as I got t18 4pc, I used it over my T17 2pc. On progression especially, there's no real reason I saw not to use the new gear. More health, stats and triage throughput which I would argue any day is more important than PoM bounces. To me, there was literally 0 healing checks in this instance and was no reason to run t17. Especially on fights like Gorefiend where the only thing that mattered week 1 was healing the adds up, which the new gear obviously does compared to running old t17 gear.

To me, using T17 2pc is just unnecessary pad healing that will not be the difference between killing a boss or not. However, higher health pool, increased stats and single target throughput might. Its like disc running WoM. Sure if you're not going to cast CoW why wouldn't you use WoM? But its the same thing, its pad healing.

[DevilsAdvocate]

As soon as I got t18 4pc, I used it over my T17 2pc. On progression especially, there's no real reason I saw not to use the new gear. More health, stats and triage throughput which I would argue any day is more important than PoM bounces. To me, there was literally 0 healing checks in this instance and was no reason to run t17. Especially on fights like Gorefiend where the only thing that mattered week 1 was healing the adds up, which the new gear obviously does compared to running old t17 gear.

To me, using T17 2pc is just unnecessary pad healing that will not be the difference between killing a boss or not. However, higher health pool, increased stats and single target throughput might. Its like disc running WoM. Sure if you're not going to cast CoW why wouldn't you use WoM? But its the same thing, its pad healing.

Obviously you should switch gear depending on your role. If a fight has mechanics that requires you to do priority healing like gorefiend, you can use some of your own judgement. As it is, the stats loss from using the lowest-weighted slots for stats (hands and shoulders) is not great.

POM bounces have very high synergy with your echo mastery and the fact that any single echo can proc twist of fate and thus dramaticallly increase your healing. If you are raid healing you should definitely be running the t17 2pc.

As for disc running WOM, you have no idea what you're talking about. Lots of top disc priests run WOM on progression on most fights because with a holy paladin they aren't tank healing, they are raid healing. If Clarity of Will can cheese a mechanic, you take it, but the instances of it doing that is far less in HFC than BRF.

Using a min-max raid composition, a Disc priest will usually be taking WoM and a holy priest should almost always be using 2pc t17.

[Rfx]

Obviously you should switch gear depending on your role. If a fight has mechanics that requires you to do priority healing like gorefiend, you can use some of your own judgement. As it is, the stats loss from using the lowest-weighted slots for stats (hands and shoulders) is not great.

POM bounces have very high synergy with your echo mastery and the fact that any single echo can proc twist of fate and thus dramaticallly increase your healing. If you are raid healing you should definitely be running the t17 2pc.

As for disc running WOM, you have no idea what you're talking about. Lots of top disc priests run WOM on progression on most fights because with a holy paladin they aren't tank healing, they are raid healing. If Clarity of Will can cheese a mechanic, you take it, but the instances of it doing that is far less in HFC than BRF.

Using a min-max raid composition, a Disc priest will usually be taking WoM and a holy priest should almost always be using 2pc t17.

I think its you that has no idea what you're talking about, or at least, you're missing the point of my post. You seemed to have missed it so I will reiterate myself. There is no reason not to run WoM if you're not going to be taking advantage of CoW. I agree, hence I said so in my above post. My point is, it is low impact healing that is very, very unlikely to result in the difference between someone living or not. Which was my point. I am not saying there is anything wrong with using WoM.

As for holy, once again I make the same point. The t17 may very well be a HPS increase over t18 however, once again that is not the point I am trying to make. My point is that similarly to discipline running WoM it is low impact. And I guess it boils down to differing attitudes but I would rather have an additional 12-13k HP on progression (especially given there were mechanics that would legitimately one-shot players during progression in the first few weeks). I would also rather have the extra intellect and secondary stats which, as I said, arguably has the potential to have a bigger life-saving impact (as with the inc stam) then additional PoM bounces.

And lets not say that using t17 2pc "dramatically increas[es] your healing" because it doesn't. And if it matters, not that it really does due to the main factor being "underhealing" content - though I guess everyone does - but in less then a month of public logging I'm the rank 3 holy priest on Warcraft Logs without using the t17 2pc on a single fight and spending 99% of my time in the serenity chakra. I'm not saying this to inflate my ego, but if running the t17 2pc is such a dramatical HPS increase as you say, I struggle to see how I could be anywhere near the top 10 by sacrificing so much healing to run t18 4pc.

So when you talk about using a 'min-max' raid composition (especially for progression), you should ask yourself what do you value more? Do you value higher survivability and single-target triage or do you value having slightly better HPS?

I certainly know what I'd choose.

[Deleted]

I just wanted to post that despite my previous posts showing the strength of t17 2pc, which I still stand by, it's ENTIRELY valid not to use it. As Rfx mentions t17 2pc is only an overall hps increase, that healing is purely coming from PoM and you do indeed LOSE healing from your other spells such as divine hymn, flash heal, binding heal, circle of healing all those triage spells that could potentially save someone. That said it's still a net gain to use t17 2pc, in terms of raw potential hps.

So you do have to weigh up the hps gain from 2pc t17 vs extra stats boosting your triage spells from higher ilvl items. Both are entirely defendable choices based on your own raid group, your healing comp, how your other healers play etc etc.


Also worth noting, and I have said it before in this thread, the t17 2pc is only an hps gain when looking at constant, substantial raid damage, or at least situations where it will constantly be bouncing and won't be wasted. The difference is probably a lot less in real situations and I'd almost argue that they're probably so close in raw hps, even in ideal circumstances, that it's hardly worth debating, especially with the higher ilvl legendary ring being paired with hymn (which having higher ilvl would benefit)

[DevilsAdvocate]

There are good points made and I agree that substantial judgement should be used to use t17 2 piece of which all the factors stated should be considered.

That being said, I'd like to reiterate how terrible the T18 4pc is anyways making the option being either t17 2 piece or mythic-quality gear.

The T17 2piece gives you 4 extra PoM bounces which has extra synergy with your mastery, twist of fate, and unstable fel emulsion. Yes, damage has to be percolating through the raid to make sure you get those bounces, but that's common in HFC fights and the triple synergy is just so good. If you proc twist of fate because of the extra bounces, then that more than makes up for the throughput loss on losing the stats from your shoulders and gloves. And unstable fel emulsion is amazing on fights such as gorefiend where the damage bonus translates into even more leech healing and the extra pom bounces ensure you will be blanketing the raid in leech. I mention the mastery only because any healing puts on a hot that will continuously have a chance to proc twist of fate or unstable fel emulsion, of which POM will contribute to.

And I wouldn't bring logs into the conversation. For healing, it really doesn't matter at all. I can make our resident holy priest top the meters simply by not healing as the disc priest. He was 6th one fight where I died early along with another healer. Also being the best out of a class no top guild ever brings doesn't really mean anything. In addition, warcraft logs is still not counting unstable fel emulsion properly. My weak auras almost always reports our holy priest being significantly ahead of our druids and monks, probably because they get better coverage from all dem PoM bounces.

Your triage sucks more, that's true. I happen to think that the gain from the extra POM bounces and all the synergies more than makes up for it.

[Deleted]

@DevilsAdvocate I notice you mention using the gloves and shoulders as offpieces. That was my first thought too due to the lower budgets but after running through A LOT of gear sets using various stat weights I actually discovered that because of the haste multistrike already present on t18 shoulders it wasn't the best option to use t17 shoulders in most scenarios unless you were significantly overhealing with echo of light.

Instead I found 3 different sets to be above the others (although to be fair, they're all fairly close).
Using t17 gloves and legs, t18 chest and shoulders and countenance of the revenant came out top from the stat weights I got from myllior and my own spreadsheet

A VERY close 2nd was t17 gloves and legs, t18 helm and chest with Mantle of the Eredar Lord

I also came up with a 3rd set when devaluing mastery (for when you're overhealing content and just want to snipe upfront damage), t17 gloves and shoulders, t18 helm and chest with Leggings of the Iron Summoner.

[Rfx]

Your triage sucks more, that's true. I happen to think that the gain from the extra POM bounces and all the synergies more than makes up for it.

And this was my point all along. Whether you agree with me or not is fine. I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game. Everything I've said has simply been my opinion which very well may be the minority. Either choice has both its pros and cons. I personally believe t17 2pc has more cons than pros for progression (Inc hp, triage/stats and increased damage throughput - neglected to mention this earlier) then the slight HPS boost of the 2pc t17 which ultimately I also believe is highly unnecessary as there were no real healing checks in the instance.

It comes down to differing attitudes is all.