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  1. #1

    20 man mythic and its real impact.

    Pre-WoD the raiding scene were dominated by 10 man guilds. 25 man raids were dissapearing little by little as they were way harder to organize and there were no reward for doing them instead of 10. To addrees this, Blizzard marged 10 and 25 in mythic 20. This movement helped lots of 25 man guild to improve and it also helped improve raids encounters, PvE race and the quality of the content as they were not worried about balancing 10 and 25.

    But, at what cost? I mean 0,5% top guilds are really happy about this new scene but what about the average raiders? All those little communities of friends who raided to have fun in very relaxing enviroment or those groups very reduced in a very reduced raid time who wanted to push really hardcore. You could say: "hc is for them and its actually flexible!!!" but no. If you see realms, LOTS of guilds has dissappear and the number of actual "Mythic raiders" has descreased. There were lots of guilds that consistently cleared 5-6 bosses of mythic without having to invest that much time organizing a 25 man roster or having to lost their friendly enviroment. This is my case, I'm not interesting in playing anymore because I dont want to worry about organizing a 24-25 man roster and if I decide to stay in 10, I only have hc content.

    I don't know if it is a real cause of sub lost for Blizzard. But seeing the numbers and the ecosystem of realms, I think 20 mythic has damaged it more than helped.

    I open this topic to know whats your opinion mates. Do you think that 20 man has had more negative of possitive effects? What has been your experience?
    Disscus! :-)
    Last edited by Lowther; 2015-08-05 at 01:37 PM.

  2. #2
    You are completly wrong.

    It changes nothing for your "average player" since he wasn't raiding in mythic anyway. And for all the others that were raiding, their's as much guilds doing mythic now than guilds doing heroic in MoP (considering the subs loss obviously).

    Their's only benefits to the mythic mode, and you can see that by the bad balance of the normal mode and the difficulty difference between 10 and 30 men modes, while mythic is unified and the fights are well tunned.

  3. #3
    Bring back 10man mythic and I guarantee you'll see a surge in sub #s and stability.

  4. #4
    In order to cater to mythic raiding, blizzard skewed the difficulty of the other two modes more towards larger groups - the more people you added, the easier it got.

    This de facto destroyed all small guilds.

    Crap design choice.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Galithiel View Post
    You are completly wrong.

    It changes nothing for your "average player" since he wasn't raiding in mythic anyway. And for all the others that were raiding, their's as much guilds doing mythic now than guilds doing heroic in MoP (considering the subs loss obviously).

    Their's only benefits to the mythic mode, and you can see that by the bad balance of the normal mode and the difficulty difference between 10 and 30 men modes, while mythic is unified and the fights are well tunned.
    Except that the average raider was probably doing some bosses on heroic (mythic). A 10-man heroic group now can't step into mythic and do a couple of bosses.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome Azalar's Avatar
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    My opinion is strong here, 10 man mythic is a real necessity (maybe 15 man even). All my server has gone upside down since 20 man mythic came in.

    Twitter: @Azapls - Check out my expansion concepts!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Galithiel View Post
    You are completly wrong.

    It changes nothing for your "average player" since he wasn't raiding in mythic anyway. And for all the others that were raiding, their's as much guilds doing mythic now than guilds doing heroic in MoP (considering the subs loss obviously).
    This is just demonstrably wrong. Many, many guilds that used to run 10-man and eventually got around to heroics but weren't necessarily the cutting edge are now struggling because of the increase in raid size. They're farming heroics that are eventually too easy for them but they can't move up, whereas they used to have that option.

    The question isn't whether or not that is happening, it's whether they think it's worth having a better mythic experience overall for the percent who do get to do that, and if they think introducing flex on lower difficulties has brought more people TO raiding than are leaving due to stagnant guilds caught between casual and hardcore.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Galithiel View Post
    You are completly wrong.

    It changes nothing for your "average player" since he wasn't raiding in mythic anyway. And for all the others that were raiding, their's as much guilds doing mythic now than guilds doing heroic in MoP (considering the subs loss obviously).

    Their's only benefits to the mythic mode, and you can see that by the bad balance of the normal mode and the difficulty difference between 10 and 30 men modes, while mythic is unified and the fights are well tunned.
    How is he completely wrong? Do you have any statistics suggesting the number of guilds raiding mythic currently is equal to where we would have been in past tiers?

    Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy raiding mythic. I don't face the issues of not having enough people to raid (mostly because my guild leadership is a recruiting machine). But to say that the pool of players is similar (taking into account the sub loss), is probably off. Recruiting at one point use to be much, much easier.
    Last edited by Deavane; 2015-08-05 at 02:20 PM.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Mystrome's Avatar
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    My guild died over not being able to beat the attendance/recruitment boss for 20 man mythic. After being stuck on 17-20 people for a few months, farming BRF HC became so boring a lot of them quit playing, leaving us with not enough people for a 10 man normal raid. Just recruiting ANY warm body is near impossible on my 'medium' populated realm.

    Personally, I'm not that interested in racing trough any new content, but the lack of being able to naturally progress trough a new raid and advance to a higher difficulty is quite a let down and I'm suspecting it's what is contributing (quite heavily) to people abandoning the game (temporarily) this early in the patch/Xpac-cycle.

    Before anyone feels the need to abuse the 'polls on MMO-C have shown people like 20 man over flex or 10/25 (marginally) better' argument, I don't care about that. It's my personal opinion, plus consider the fact that MMO-C is not a cross-section of WoW's playerbase. I bet there are a lot more players out there who could/would dip their toes in a mythic raid and do a few (if not all) bosses available but unable to (for whatever reason) than there are people actually doing them right now.

  10. #10
    Here I have gathered some stats from my server:

    Dun Modr-EU

    Guilds that have completed 1/10 BRF T17 mythic at least =~ 80 which is about 2000 mythic raiders aprox. (25 raiders per guild)
    Guilds that have completed 1/13 TOT T15 old-hc at least =~ 20 (25) 205 (10) = 3100 old-hc raiders aprox. (30/12 raiders per guild)

    Sub number where about 7.3M in this two tiers and you see a 33% decrease.

  11. #11
    There's no reason they can't open 10 man mythic 2 weeks after 20 man releases for smaller communities to tackle challenging content.

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Mystrome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranhaconda View Post
    Many, many guilds that used to run 10-man and eventually got around to heroics but weren't necessarily the cutting edge are now struggling because of the increase in raid size. They're farming heroics that are eventually too easy for them but they can't move up, whereas they used to have that option.
    This is pretty accurate for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mxkz View Post
    There's no reason they can't open 10 man mythic 2 weeks after 20 man releases for smaller communities to tackle challenging content.
    Or flexible even.

    I'm perfectly fine with not having a [Bleeding Edge] achievement.

  13. #13
    What it's done is said to all the 10 man guilds "You don't matter to us".

    What that means to me is, once I've killed heroic, there's no reason to play. At all. There's no recruitment drive when you're a smaller guild.

    We're back to TBC wankery where the top guild on the server gets to burn out all the healers, and everyone else gets to grind the same content for 6 months.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Deavane View Post
    How is he completely wrong? Do you have any statistics suggesting the number of guilds raiding mythic currently is equal to where we would have been in past tiers?
    Yes I do : www.wowprogress.com

  15. #15
    Seriously leave mythic raiding to mythic raiders. I dont raid mythic and im perfectly fine as it is. It is way harder to balance fights for different raid sizes.

    If you want to raid mythic transfer to a guild that has 20 raiders to do it.

    I'm tired of people who claim to be entitled to eveyrthing.
    Last edited by babyback; 2015-08-05 at 02:10 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Galithiel View Post
    You are completly wrong.

    It changes nothing for your "average player" since he wasn't raiding in mythic anyway. And for all the others that were raiding, their's as much guilds doing mythic now than guilds doing heroic in MoP (considering the subs loss obviously).

    Their's only benefits to the mythic mode, and you can see that by the bad balance of the normal mode and the difficulty difference between 10 and 30 men modes, while mythic is unified and the fights are well tunned.
    Wrong. Grim Batol-EU for example used to house several really good guilds, clearing Ulduar pre-nerfs, ICC heroic etc. Over the time these communities got smaller of course (mostly due to Heroic Siegecrafter), but with WoD they could no longer raid the top content and slowly died. One of the biggest EU servers is now "Medium" populace...

  17. #17
    I actually think if you're going to have a static mythic size (which makes sense for a lot of reasons) then you should have that size be close the flex cap. Right now that would mean 25, but you could easily cap flex normal/heroic at 20 and make mythic 15 or really whatever you want.

    Seriously sucks when you have a largish heroic guild looking to do at least a bit of mythic and you're forced to cut like 5 raiders since you can't find raid time for 30 people in a 20 person difficulty.

  18. #18
    I am pretty certain from all the things people complain about in WoD, the change from 10/25 to 20 player mythic groups cost wow the most players, since this does not affect individual players, but entire raid groups.

    After breaking up the raid groups some players found a new home somewhere, but some others stopped playing completely.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystrome View Post
    This is pretty accurate for me.
    I'm an officer in a guild like that and it's just an awkward spot to be in. If we look back at our roster, we've actually recruited quite a lot of people throughout WoD (though there have been many cases of returning players and also new recruits bringing other friends along later as opposed to complete free agents all the time), but there are dropoffs to offset it. Getting bored, looking for better opportunities to a lesser extent.

    In a guild like mine, we're basically never going to get an application from a really solid player who wants to play mythic unless it's a friend of a friend. There's no need for them to wait around with us and hope. Mythic guilds are not only constantly recruiting but often also hungry to the point of actively headhunting people in lesser guilds who rank well consistently--there is no shortage of places to turn to if you're an individual player who can do well and wants to do something. We're all just a million old 10-man guilds sat here simultaneously trying to expand with a pool that doesn't support it, and merges are dicey to say the least.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    I am pretty certain from all the things people complain about in WoD, the change from 10/25 to 20 player mythic groups cost wow the most players, since this does not affect individual players, but entire raid groups.

    After breaking up the raid groups some players found a new home somewhere, but some others stopped playing completely.
    Of the 14 people on my realm first heroic 10 man team, only 2 are still playing - at all. Only one (me) is raiding mythic, and I don't particularly like the 20 man Mythic size, or the epeen issues that go with it.

    As a former 10 heroic raider, I always felt the rank-bros migrated to 25 man for multiple stormlashes, skull banners, etc, while 10 man raiders were more focused on mechanical purity knowing that they couldn't afford many fuck ups. This expansion, I've been in a couple mythic guilds which were on par with where my 10 man was in MoP, and they're plagued with exactly what I feared - people more obsessed about their own numbers/gear/satisfaction that they add 100s of attempts over the course of an instance to your progression. It's pushed me to the point of not raiding any more - I'm already only raid logging, and we're still on progression.

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