20 man mythic and its real impact.

[Deleted]

Then why not go back to 40man as others have suggested? By your same logic, people who don't want a return to 40man are just allergic to being social and making new friends in a freaking MMO right? Maybe it has more to do with liking the smaller group atmosphere than basically just being a cog in a machine. Also, the world is SO much more social with 20mans than it was with the 10/25 model right?

Who said I had a social problem with 40-man? I'd prefer 20 man, but if Blizzard went 40-man I would still happily raid.

Straw man fallacy much?

[Enitzu]

Then why not go back to 40man as others have suggested? By your same logic, people who don't want a return to 40man are just allergic to being social and making new friends in a freaking MMO right? Maybe it has more to do with liking the smaller group atmosphere than basically just being a cog in a machine. Also, the world is SO much more social with 20mans than it was with the 10/25 model right?

The entire point to 20 mans was to make it 1 difficulty. If you didn't read back in the day, balancing 10 and 25 meant that fights varied so much for each difficulty. Things had to be added or taken out and fights could not be tuned too tightly. We used to swap raid sizes for certain bosses because they were just that much easier on 10 than 25 and we wanted to work on others before fighting with the headache. It has absolutely nothing to do with being more social.

Having 1 raid size means that things can be harder (which is why mythic exists. to give the hardcore raiders a place to bash their face in a wall). If you want to do 10 mans you have normal and heroics. Nothing is stopping you. If you want harder then it's really not that hard to get into a guild for them. If you only want to raid with your 9 friends in life, well then stick to heroics or meet more people to work into mythic.

If they were to drop mythic to a 10 man size it would never work. It is impossible to fit all of the classes into a 10 man and they can not design fights based around people picking up specific roles because x raid group may not have that role. Or because if a class was going to be dropped from the roster some classes would completely die out and never be used, sorry dps shaman but looking at you mostly. There's many reasons why they do things. Assuming you know more then what they do is just dumb.

[PrairieChicken]

Participation numbers in M HFC appear to be far below sustainable levels right now. Is it too early to judge the whole mythic experiment a failure?

If the goal was to weed out the "unworthy" and leave only the "true" raiders then it would be considered absolute success.

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They'll justify it for one more expansion (Legion) before changing it to 10/20 man with some other weird twists and turns sprinkled in. Matters not to me anymore as I'll just be sticking with LFR (come on real tier pieces added back in just to piss the tryhards off!) whenever I sub sometimes during Legion or if a friend needs a spot filled somewhere.

Dunno though, I am on better late night server (Proudmoore) with my alliance characters (DK, mage, and soon DH). See what happens.

Mythic audiance is too small to "justify" the splitting - basically 1% participation to 2% won't change anything so devs won't bother

[Deleted]

I am pretty certain from all the things people complain about in WoD, the change from 10/25 to 20 player mythic groups cost wow the most players, since this does not affect individual players, but entire raid groups.

After breaking up the raid groups some players found a new home somewhere, but some others stopped playing completely.

It also happens to affect the tiniest of the niches in the game.
There are more Fur Fetish Fan Clubs out there than mythic raiders.

[Chetnik]

If the goal was to weed out the "unworthy" and leave only the "true" raiders then it would be considered absolute success.

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Mythic audiance is too small to "justify" the splitting - basically 1% participation to 2% won't change anything so devs won't bother

I think you need to take a look at the numbers for previous tiers again. There were significantly more people raiding legacy heroic than there are raiding mythic now. You can even compare them to t17, as it's over now, abd see how few people are participating. Mythic may have been a good idea in theory and practice, but the participation rates make it almost unsustainable.

[Kyanion]

Having 1 raid size means that things can be harder (which is why mythic exists. to give the hardcore raiders a place to bash their face in a wall). If you want to do 10 mans you have normal and heroics. Nothing is stopping you. If you want harder then it's really not that hard to get into a guild for them. If you only want to raid with your 9 friends in life, well then stick to heroics or meet more people to work into mythic.

If they were to drop mythic to a 10 man size it would never work. It is impossible to fit all of the classes into a 10 man and they can not design fights based around people picking up specific roles because x raid group may not have that role. Or because if a class was going to be dropped from the roster some classes would completely die out and never be used, sorry dps shaman but looking at you mostly. There's many reasons why they do things. Assuming you know more then what they do is just dumb.

Never work? Never work my ass. You are telling me fights like Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Garrosh 10 man were not well done fights on the 10 man variety? Give me a freaking break. If you think a dev team of that size cannot produce quality 10 man and 20 man content at the same time then you will never be able to see the other side in this discussion.

Just because the raid size went to 20 does not mean the people that prefer 10 man are not 'hardcore' now. There are many reasons why people do NOT enjoy 20 man raiding and I'm not going over them AGAIN because you fail to see the point.

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I think you need to take a look at the numbers for previous tiers again. There were significantly more people raiding legacy heroic than there are raiding mythic now. You can even compare them to t17, as it's over now, abd see how few people are participating. Mythic may have been a good idea in theory and practice, but the participation rates make it almost unsustainable.

but but only 20m is hardcore now! *eyeroll* Come on I mean mythic is doing the right thing, limiting the top end quality raiding to the smallest number in how many expansions? Mission accomplished right? Hardcore status unlocked: Wildstar. (btw this is super sarcastic, I totally agree with you Chetnik).

[Kaykay]

if they were to drop mythic to a 10 man size it would never work. It is impossible to fit all of the classes into a 10 man and they can not design fights based around people picking up specific roles because x raid group may not have that role.

how is any encounter in wod in any way dependant on a specific spec? i can think of one fight. Out of 30+ encounters.

And it's a reused mechanic, they already found a solution for 10/25 in wrath of the lich king with razuvious mind control mechanic.

10M mythic has been cut merely to save development time. It has no benefit to the playerbase. And no raids in wod has really taken advantage of this new "magical" number.

[Kyanion]

how is any encounter in wod in any way dependant on a specific spec? i can think of one fight. Out of 30+ encounters.

And it's a reused mechanic, they already found a solution for 10/25 in wrath of the lich king with razuvious mind control mechanic.

10M mythic has been cut merely to save development time. It has no benefit to the playerbase. And no raids in wod has really taken advantage of this new "magical" number.

Haha yeah that argument that only 20 man mythic can work blows my mind. Yeah it can NEVER work. I mean it only started this expansion so that must be the limited of what can be done! *eyeroll*

That slays me though, that 10m mythic likely got cut to save development time when the dev team is larger than ever. How fucked up is that? Add more people do less work.

[kamuimac]

P. Not a lot, but it adds up.

thats the main problem of raiding scene atm - individually its not much people see 1 or 2 guilds dying - 10-20 raiders leaving game - but they dont see bigger picture that those who they see leaving is only tiny part of thousands of guildsthat died - with the guilds dying casual/friend members of guild quit too - and suddenly the snowball effect appears - blizzard fucked up royaly for listening to nolifers - they deserve every single sub they lost for gutting out game for 99 % in favor of 1 %.

[Baconeggcheese]

they deserve every single sub they lost for gutting out game for 99 % in favor of 1 %.

1% fallacy was dis-proven back in 2005.

The figure for people in the community participating in mythic (heroic) raiding was / is far from 99% of the total community.

[jinklos]

Haha yeah that argument that only 20 man mythic can work blows my mind. Yeah it can NEVER work. I mean it only started this expansion so that must be the limited of what can be done! *eyeroll*

That slays me though, that 10m mythic likely got cut to save development time when the dev team is larger than ever. How fucked up is that? Add more people do less work.

What evidence do you have that "10m mythic got cut"? "Well fellow Blizzard devs, we don't have time to increase boss hp and dmg for the 10/25 man difficulty split, looks like we're just gonna have to mash them together really quickly, tune them extremely well, and add new mechanics to virtually every fight, making them more engaging and a clear step up from normal and heroic." Give me a break. They didn't 10 man mythic. They stated over a year before WoD was released that it was going to happen, that it was planned, and that the raids would have better tuning overall as it's essentially impossible to properly balance 10/25 man hard modes. I mean, I liked 10 man heroic, it was to make a group, and as a single person, I had more impact on the raid outcome. But 20 man mythic allows for greater class diversity, and offers them the opportunity to (hopefully) put in more class-specific encounters into the fights. It honestly seems to me, after seeing so many people complain, that the people who are bitching about 10man mythic not being a thing are the bad players that I spent all of Wotlk and Cata carrying. I mean, it must suck to be told you can't go mythic raid because carrying doesn't work as well as it used to because of more emphasis on personal play. But get over it. The community that actually does mythic raiding is pretty pleased with how it turned out, and considering that that's the audience Blizzard created the mode for, it seems like a pretty decent success to me.

It slays me that people pretend to understand what's going on at Blizzard (or any game developer, for that matter) with zero knowledge of what is in fact going on there. I feel pretty safe in assuming that mythic mode takes more work than old heroic mode, considering that outside of Ulduar hard modes mechanics didn't even change between normal and heroic, all they needed to do to create normal was lower damage and health. Ian said in an interview that they create the hard modes first, and then lower the difficulty for the other modes.

tl;dr 20 man mythic was designed from the start to be just that, a single raid mode. There was no 10 man mythic planned. Stop pretending to know anything about what's going on Blizzard and how their workflow is conducted, because you simply have zero actual fact-based evidence to pass any sort of judgment.

[Spriestlawl]

It's unlikely they'll bring 10 man fully back. 10-man will probably be the minimum and 15-man will be the standard. There's so much to be said about the 2/4/9 approach, the balance of buffs, and expectations about class diversity that a 10-man just can't attain. Mechanics just don't work well with fewer numbers, if you've ever tried to clear HFC heroic 13/13 with a heroic group you can see that. It's absolutely abysmal. 10-man BF Heroic was similar, especially till you outgeared it. I really hope they drop it to 15, the roster is much more stable at that number and the small unit leadership is cleaner. What they really need to do is balance some of the mechanic breaking classes that are available...

[Kyanion]

It honestly seems to me, after seeing so many people complain, that the people who are bitching about 10man mythic not being a thing are the bad players that I spent all of Wotlk and Cata carrying. I mean, it must suck to be told you can't go mythic raid because carrying doesn't work as well as it used to because of more emphasis on personal play. But get over it. The community that actually does mythic raiding is pretty pleased with how it turned out, and considering that that's the audience Blizzard created the mode for, it seems like a pretty decent success to me.

What a useless post of shit you just made. So you thnk that people that did 10 man raiding the past 2 expansions are 'bad players' that cannot do the content? Are you fucking insane? For the most part you couldn't carry more than 1 person in 10 man raiding on fights like Garrosh and Siegecrafter. Man get over yourself. Comments like yours add nothing to this discussion because you are too busy being Captain Hardcore thinking that you are the best thing ever.

Derp I can't do 20 man mythic content because i and all my friends r bad, heaven forbid we cleared all the content in the prior 2 expansions you are now bad and can't do it. Damn my skills declined all of a sudden, I better retire.

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It's unlikely they'll bring 10 man fully back. 10-man will probably be the minimum and 15-man will be the standard. There's so much to be said about the 2/4/9 approach, the balance of buffs, and expectations about class diversity that a 10-man just can't attain. Mechanics just don't work well with fewer numbers, if you've ever tried to clear HFC heroic 13/13 with a heroic group you can see that. It's absolutely abysmal. 10-man BF Heroic was similar, especially till you outgeared it. I really hope they drop it to 15, the roster is much more stable at that number and the small unit leadership is cleaner. What they really need to do is balance some of the mechanic breaking classes that are available...

Yeah 10-12 man Archimonde is a pain in the ass with all of the things required of such a small raid team, but overall I wish the fight was harder. It won't be one of those 'spend hundreds of attempts' on this boss before downing it like Siegecrafter/Garrosh. I'd love to see first hand the next level of fights but alas.

[kingj56]

I dont understand. If you are raiding heroic and clear it and wanna do mythic why not recruit and post your achieves u get in trade. If you cant do that (i know recruiting warm bodies is hard, been there done that) try merging raid groups with another guild and you have 10 from one and 10 from another. You wont the get teh guild achieve but you get the experience and you get the content which from what i am seeing is what you want. If you doin it just for teh guild achieve its more about E-Peen than it is for challenging content.

As a side note i just looked up teh number of guilds that have killed at least 1 boss on mythic. Only 2315 guilds have killed at least 1 boss. Out of 5mil people thats a LOW number. If the number of people who has killed at least one boss is 20 per guild. The math follows:
20*2315= 46300 total players who ahve killed at least 1 mythic boss.

If there are atleast 5mil subs thats less than .01% of the total players who are even somewhat successful in mythic(as a guild). I say all that to ask. Are you guys sure you can even make it in mythic? I know we all love this game and we want to be the best but come on are you sure the ammount of time and effort it takes for mythic. Trying this hard content can often tear guilds apart. Why not be happy with the friends you have and just enjoy the game?

All numbers came from WoW Progress

[jinklos]

What a useless post of shit you just made. So you thnk that people that did 10 man raiding the past 2 expansions are 'bad players' that cannot do the content? Are you fucking insane? For the most part you couldn't carry more than 1 person in 10 man raiding on fights like Garrosh and Siegecrafter. Man get over yourself. Comments like yours add nothing to this discussion because you are too busy being Captain Hardcore thinking that you are the best thing ever.

Derp I can't do 20 man mythic content because i and all my friends r bad, heaven forbid we cleared all the content in the prior 2 expansions you are now bad and can't do it. Damn my skills declined all of a sudden, I better retire.

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Yeah 10-12 man Archimonde is a pain in the ass with all of the things required of such a small raid team, but overall I wish the fight was harder. It won't be one of those 'spend hundreds of attempts' on this boss before downing it like Siegecrafter/Garrosh. I'd love to see first hand the next level of fights but alas.

Funny how you left out the sentence where I stated that I liked 10 man heroic. Lol, no, I never said "everyone who did 10 man raiding was bad". I've historically only done 10 man raiding. If you're good enough to beat 10 man heroic, which surely wasn't easy, you should be of the skill level to do mythic content. You had a year to expand the roster, and I get that you want to raid with your little group of friends (who doesn't), rather than recruit or join a bunch of randoms, but Blizz did give a ton of warning. More than enough time to find people who you actually got along with to fill your roster. At what point did I ever say I was hardcore? I am just used to slowly carrying bad people through heroics. Trust me, my guild in Cata didn't manage to kill Spine/Madness until two weeks before MoP. This is with a 30% nerf. We had 2 dps doing almost 50% of the damage (though I was healing), which is a difficult scenario to push through heroic with.

I was using that line as an insult because so many people complained for that year-long warning period instead of using the lengthy period of time to recruit and now sit there and yell at the clouds as if there's nothing they could have done. I mean, you shouldn't get so defensive. I also wonder how you think the post of yours that I initially responded to added anything to the conversation considering it could be boiled to, "blizzard is a bunch of lazy assholes and now I'm going to speculate about things I don't understand, like the cutting of something that was never designed with the intent of being 10man".

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

More options are always better. Respecting the player enough to make the best choices(or compromises in the case of attendance)for themselves is a win-win. It's too bad that tweaking Mythic numbers and mechanics is a chore, but that's the job.

[Valrok]

What if they just made separate raids for different difficulties like back in TBC? Except make them drop the same level of gear or something so it's not like TBC where 25 man raids were flat out better than all the 10 mans

[Chetnik]

What if they just made separate raids for different difficulties like back in TBC? Except make them drop the same level of gear or something so it's not like TBC where 25 man raids were flat out better than all the 10 mans

No. You're still forced to get a bigger group to do the top content. If that's the model they wanted to have, they should've stuck with it. It's too late to go back to something like that now.

[Deleted]

More options are always better. Respecting the player enough to make the best choices(or compromises in the case of attendance)for themselves is a win-win. It's too bad that tweaking Mythic numbers and mechanics is a chore, but that's the job.

People don't seem to get this, but i'll say it for ten-fucking-thousandth time.

Mythic. Needs. To. Be. One. Raid. Size. To. Work.

it has nothing to do with Dev time or resources or whatever. So no, more options are not always better when those options come at cost.

So sick of having to repeat the same shit over and over....

[Sandrox]

Mythic. Needs. To. Be. One. Raid. Size. To. Work.

Why? For the world first race that most players dont care about?