Anti-social features wiped out the playerbase

[Kokolums]

We're almost at the expansion 6 announcement, so I thought I'd voice this again.

The core feature that helped WoW grow like it did was the social nature of the game. The general idea is that the more in-game friends people have, the more they are truly invested in the game. It makes it 1000x more difficult to quit WoW when you have friends playing and relying on you. It is CRITICAL that the game is designed to funnel people into making friends.

LFR and dungeon finder at first glance appear to be wonderful pluses to WoW because it automates everything and makes it so easy to jump into a 5 man or raid. But its actually WoW's biggest cancer because it making friends suddenly becomes optional. I can run 5 mans and raid without talking to a soul. And that means the odds of me making friends drop. And without friends in the game, it becomes REALLY easy to unsub the second I get bored.

They've been making this error since late BC. it got worse in wrath. It went over the edge with cata. I firmly believe the anti social tools are the #1 reason the game is in a tailspin. (Garrisons are another anti social tool as now you can loot epic gear without even raiding or 5 manning.)

Expansion 6 MIGHT be Blizzard's final opportunity to fix this. Even if they ripped out all the social tools, it won't be an immediate fix. There will be lots of crying and people will quit. But in the long run, the playerbase will start growing again. I don't think the playerbase can get much lower than 5.6 million and survive the transition however. So this expansion might be make or break.

[trystera]

I'd personally quit if Blizzard moved toward more forced socialization.

I think the balance is good as-is - those that want socialization out of the game have plenty of avenues to get it. Those that don't have options as well.

[Deleted]

We're almost at the expansion 6 announcement, so I thought I'd voice this again.

The core feature that helped WoW grow like it did was the social nature of the game. The general idea is that the more in-game friends people have, the more they are truly invested in the game. It makes it 1000x more difficult to quit WoW when you have friends playing and relying on you. It is CRITICAL that the game is designed to funnel people into making friends.

LFR and dungeon finder at first glance appear to be wonderful pluses to WoW because it automates everything and makes it so easy to jump into a 5 man or raid. But its actually WoW's biggest cancer because it making friends suddenly becomes optional. I can run 5 mans and raid without talking to a soul. And that means the odds of me making friends drop. And without friends in the game, it becomes REALLY easy to unsub the second I get bored.

They've been making this error since late BC. it got worse in wrath. It went over the edge with cata. I firmly believe the anti social tools are the #1 reason the game is in a tailspin. (Garrisons are another anti social tool as now you can loot epic gear without even raiding or 5 manning.)

Expansion 6 MIGHT be Blizzard's final opportunity to fix this. Even if they ripped out all the social tools, it won't be an immediate fix. There will be lots of crying and people will quit. But in the long run, the playerbase will start growing again. I don't think the playerbase can get much lower than 5.6 million and survive the transition however. So this expansion might be make or break.

I completely agree with you on most of the things you address. WoW has been catering to the solo players for a long time now and it's become difficult to see how this is an MMO. The Garrisons in WoD separated you from the outside world, as well as the phasing that was introduced somewhere around Cata? Suddenly, the world was cut up into chunks and you couldn't even help your friends if you wanted, because you weren't on the same quest or you were way ahead and had to wait for them to catch up.

Hopefully, they'll cut down on the phasing and instead just release us into the wild. We will see in a few hours.

[Scyclone]

Honestly what they should do is keep the Dungeon Finder but change it some.

First, compress servers a bit. Focus on balance of faction (as best as possible), and try to bring each server collective to a general number. That should help things out some.

Next, unhook Dungeon Finder from going region wide, make it server-collective specific.

Incorporate a notoriety system of some sort (with some safe guards in place to prevent trolling/abuse) that allow members of the community to give kudos to supportive players and admonish those that are detrimental to the community. Based on the notoriety, the characters get prioritized into groups they try to join in dungeon finder. Basically meaning, if you are a more pleasant person and make an impact on other players, you receive a bit of a reward in reduced queue times as a result. Whereas, if you are being an asshole to your fellow players, it will only make you sit in queue longer and longer for such actions.

Build in a decay for notoriety in both ends (to drive encouragement towards continuous positive behavior), then take a look as to how to handle role balance. As this system really would only impact DPS with any heaviness, for Tanks, often, it is just an instant queue as is. I cannot exactly say that a delay would have any impact on them, or could potentially even be detrimental to the DPS that would be stuck waiting for a tank.

Just my two cents as to a possible idea to encourage a more server centric community

[Lochton]

Wait, we're talking anti-social features.. Yet you marked LFG and LFR, where you're forced to be together with a bunch of strangers - only anti-social feature in that, is you, that player. Besides, LFG was one of the best additions. Not sure you agree, but I am happy not losing DPS while waiting for summon, etc.

I know LFR, and LFG comes a little more hande to "solo" perspectives, but didn't wipe out people, as you didn't have to do it - you could go with friends.

[unbound]

Probably a factor, but a small one.

There is a very strong correlation with the lack content provided in expansions and the number of subscriptions.

BC - 16 dungeons, 8 raids, 2 new races, 1 full capital city, 12 new zones (including starter zones) - solid growth to 10 million
Wrath - 16 dungeons, 9 raids, 1 new class, 1 full capital city, 12 new zones (including DK zone) - growth / steady at nearly 12 million
Cata - 14 dungeons (2 revamped), 6 raids, 2 new races, 11 new zones - initial decline to 10 million
MoP - 9 dungeons (3 revamped), 5 raids, 1 new race, 1 new class, 2 pseudo-capital cities, 8 new zones (including starter zone) - continued decline to 7 million
WoD - 8 dungeons (1 revamped), 3 raids, 1 garrison, 2 minor cities, 8 new zones (no new races or classes) - continued decline to well under 6 million and likely falling

[Golden]

LFR and dungeon finder at first glance appear to be wonderful pluses to WoW because it automates everything and makes it so easy to jump into a 5 man or raid. But its actually WoW's biggest cancer because it making friends suddenly becomes optional. I can run 5 mans and raid without talking to a soul. And that means the odds of me making friends drop. And without friends in the game, it becomes REALLY easy to unsub the second I get bored.

I played EQ for 6 years. Then, I played WoW for 10. If WoW wasn't convenient, I wouldn't play WoW anymore at all. The game is getting old, and the old formulas aren't working anymore.

[Deleted]

I completely agree with the OP: LFD pretty much killed the social aspect of the game, be them negative or positive.
Loved LFD at first but realized midway through Cataclysm the horrendous effect as my friendslist was getting increasingly dark without meeting new people.
I thought I was just a minority, but having a few days of playtime on nostalrius and talking to people there over the last months - many share that opinion.
In addtition the recent spike and sharp drop of subscribers, or their now "cyclical" nature make me believe that this is a big reason that many underestimate or don't want it to be true.

Before Cata came out subs were either rising or stagnant - yeah people left but more than enough new players arrived to stem the flow.
With Cata they redid the leveling process because too many people left within the first 20 levels. Did they actually achieve the opposite? I don't think so.
More people leveled up, but many left far quicker because they had no social anchor in the game - no friends or not enough.

World of Warcraft needs something to forge bonds between people again, quick. I would personally just rip lfd/lfr and crossrealm-stuff out, but I hope there is another solution, as I don't see that going well with a lot of player resistance. Something should happen soon - I hope.

I don't want to be forced to nostalrius just to have a community driven wow - i want new content, not dwell on old i have played so much of 2005-2006...

and lastly something toxic: people like me who have social bonds ingame, love the game and their creators give blizzard more money than people that only are there for the game and the current content, lamenting the current lack of it. People like me always found a way to have fun ingame with friends, even is there was a huge lull where one was not raiding.
As following Blizzard should cater to me, not you. If I were happy Blizz would make more money.

[Deleted]

I really don't want to rewrite this into a WoW specific text, so here is the note that I left after quiting Planetside 2:

I post here today for the last time, and I post to apologies to all of you.

On the 20th November back in 2012, a new game came out, a game some of us had long awaited.
It was Planetside 2, a game that all of you are familiar with, and a game that we have played for almost 2.5 years now.
A game of massive scale, a game with the freedom to do anything we liked, a game where we would fight against all odds.

But this changed over time, we saw more and more freedom taken away, we saw more and more features to streamline us.
Changes that I know we often complain about, changes that we blamed the developers and appeasing casuals for.
But today, I am the one that will apologies for these changes. Because I too, have forced these changes upon us.
I didn't spend enough time leading newcomers or puppies. I didn't spend enough time teaching people the ropes.
I didn't spend enough time telling what we were doing or why we were doing it. I didn't talk enough to make people comfortable.
I didn't spend time getting to know anyone but you guys. I didn't spend enough time creating fun for others.

No I did not do enough for this game to stay the way it was. I was lazy, I though that I could do what I wanted, and that everyone
would just sort themselves out and we could all be happy the way things were. But I was wrong, people weren't happy, they felt left behind,
they felt the game wasn't fun, and a part of me have to take blame for that, and that burden is a heavy one to bear.
These people didn't have a place amongst us, we pushed them aside, and told ourselves that they'd manage.
But they didn't, and for the game to stay relevant, changes would have to be made to make these people manage and be happy.
Changes that we could have prevented if only we would have cared, if only we would have striven to make a community
that could handle everything.

I leave you all today, with these words, because I cannot handle the thought of the game that could have been.
We tend to forget our role in games, and we tend to blame other players or the developers for any unwanted changes, but we must not
forget that blaming does not solve any problems. So I tell you to never forget what role you have in a game, and your actions
does have an effect on its future.

I hope to see you all in another game, where we can all be part of it!


Now the same thing essentially apply to WoW, we were the creators and sustainers of these problems that the developers try to solve to maintain their game. And there is no going back on that now, unless people took some real effort to change the status quo, but I think that is a vain hope to have at this point.

[Deleted]

I started playing WoW Classic in 2005 while studying at the university. The game was new to me then, and I had plenty of time because I am a fast learner and worker. Gradually, my life changed. I am now in a relationship with someone who cannot find anything interesting in WoW, and I have a full-time job which costs me about 60 hours a week including commuting time.

I love quality of life features in WoW like LFD and LFR because they allow me to immerse into my character and play some kind of group content with people. (I favor 5 man content over raids, btw, because in smaller groups you have more influence on the group performance.) I would socialise less if I would have to take on the chore of organising groups or having to invest time in searching for groups. Last time I have done so was the Challenge Modes at the end of MoP, but I don't know if I want to go through the hassle again. Life changes, and I would not be playing WoW anymore if it would have stayed the same as it was in Classic. I am sure, there are more people like me.

I go along with the hypothesis that continuously smaller amount of content is responsible for the decline in player numbers. I would like to add gating and destruction of professions.

[kamuimac]

oh look yet another lfr hate thread - so original

[bryroo]

If you need LFR and LFR removed to be social in game the problem is you, not the features

It would be much simpler to say 'hey, how us everyone?'

[Deleted]

@Lemposs
I don't see how one would translate that to wow and its LFD.
Before LFD finding a group and doing one or more dungeons was a longer activity that for many took an entire evening.
A large part was finding a group. Many players did dungeons even if they did not need anything there - just to help someone or play together with a friend that still needs to do it.
The only thing LFD did was combine the pool of many different servers and taking the talking and searching out of the players hands. It accelerated that whole thing.

It only happened because of community outcry for it - from people that were already doing them. They just wanted it to be quicker. I at first loved the LFD too, but it was mainly catering to people with less time. I have time. Had it in vanilla and have it today.
LFD makes me feel left behind nowadays and Blizz should do something about that, but perhaps I'm just blind and plainly wrong?

[Tharkkun]

I really don't want to rewrite this into a WoW specific text, so here is the note that I left after quiting Planetside 2:

I post here today for the last time, and I post to apologies to all of you.

On the 20th November back in 2012, a new game came out, a game some of us had long awaited.
It was Planetside 2, a game that all of you are familiar with, and a game that we have played for almost 2.5 years now.
A game of massive scale, a game with the freedom to do anything we liked, a game where we would fight against all odds.

But this changed over time, we saw more and more freedom taken away, we saw more and more features to streamline us.
Changes that I know we often complain about, changes that we blamed the developers and appeasing casuals for.
But today, I am the one that will apologies for these changes. Because I too, have forced these changes upon us.
I didn't spend enough time leading newcomers or puppies. I didn't spend enough time teaching people the ropes.
I didn't spend enough time telling what we were doing or why we were doing it. I didn't talk enough to make people comfortable.
I didn't spend time getting to know anyone but you guys. I didn't spend enough time creating fun for others.

No I did not do enough for this game to stay the way it was. I was lazy, I though that I could do what I wanted, and that everyone
would just sort themselves out and we could all be happy the way things were. But I was wrong, people weren't happy, they felt left behind,
they felt the game wasn't fun, and a part of me have to take blame for that, and that burden is a heavy one to bear.
These people didn't have a place amongst us, we pushed them aside, and told ourselves that they'd manage.
But they didn't, and for the game to stay relevant, changes would have to be made to make these people manage and be happy.
Changes that we could have prevented if only we would have cared, if only we would have striven to make a community
that could handle everything.

I leave you all today, with these words, because I cannot handle the thought of the game that could have been.
We tend to forget our role in games, and we tend to blame other players or the developers for any unwanted changes, but we must not
forget that blaming does not solve any problems. So I tell you to never forget what role you have in a game, and your actions
does have an effect on its future.

I hope to see you all in another game, where we can all be part of it!


Now the same thing essentially apply to WoW, we were the creators and sustainers of these problems that the developers try to solve to maintain their game. And there is no going back on that now, unless people took some real effort to change the status quo, but I think that is a vain hope to have at this point.

This is so generalized you could take this and post it towards any topic such as the closing of my local grocery store to make room for Walmart.

[lazorexplosion]

Even Wildstar wasn't dumb enough to touch the 'remove LFD' bullshit.

People don't want to sit on their ass spamming chat for an hour to find a group to do something. People will quit, in favor of a game that actually respects their goddamn time.

I'm going to guess that when you did it, you were unemployed, unmarried and hobbiless outside of WoW so you literally had nothing better to do.

If you want socializing, try actually chatting with people, and with people in your guild, instead of forcing everyone to put up with absolute timewasting bullshit.

[Deleted]

If you need LFR and LFR removed to be social in game the problem is you, not the features

It would be much simpler to say 'hey, how us everyone?'

You can make friends, forge bonds, with people just by meeting them and talking to them, yeah.
But being dependent on another player makes for easier bonding.

In addition, many people inside wow are timid, shy, introverted, whatever you want to call it. Not everyone, but more than your average person on the street.
A nudge to socialize with other players is a great way to encourage those players to bond with others. A nudge like organized dungeoneering.

Just take a look at Nostalrius an level up there - it's insane how everyone talks to eachother and groups up... completely different to live.

[Sharein]

Nothing to see here, people, just another "remove LFR" whine thread.

[Pandragon]

We're almost at the expansion 6 announcement, so I thought I'd voice this again.

The core feature that helped WoW grow like it did was the social nature of the game. The general idea is that the more in-game friends people have, the more they are truly invested in the game. It makes it 1000x more difficult to quit WoW when you have friends playing and relying on you. It is CRITICAL that the game is designed to funnel people into making friends.

LFR and dungeon finder at first glance appear to be wonderful pluses to WoW because it automates everything and makes it so easy to jump into a 5 man or raid. But its actually WoW's biggest cancer because it making friends suddenly becomes optional. I can run 5 mans and raid without talking to a soul. And that means the odds of me making friends drop. And without friends in the game, it becomes REALLY easy to unsub the second I get bored.

They've been making this error since late BC. it got worse in wrath. It went over the edge with cata. I firmly believe the anti social tools are the #1 reason the game is in a tailspin. (Garrisons are another anti social tool as now you can loot epic gear without even raiding or 5 manning.)

Expansion 6 MIGHT be Blizzard's final opportunity to fix this. Even if they ripped out all the social tools, it won't be an immediate fix. There will be lots of crying and people will quit. But in the long run, the playerbase will start growing again. I don't think the playerbase can get much lower than 5.6 million and survive the transition however. So this expansion might be make or break.

and i repeat on this thread like i have on the 5000 other "i hate lfr heres why" threads. cause this is always one of the scapegoat reasons. People make games anti-social. Not features. I have been playing since TBC and i have barely ever talked to anyone beyond "tank here" or "dps ilvl xxx". and i have been in several groups and lfrs where ppl just talk away and have a fun time. its a persons choice to be anti-social. systems in a game do not dictate that unless the chat system gets removed.

[Tharkkun]

We're almost at the expansion 6 announcement, so I thought I'd voice this again.

The core feature that helped WoW grow like it did was the social nature of the game. The general idea is that the more in-game friends people have, the more they are truly invested in the game. It makes it 1000x more difficult to quit WoW when you have friends playing and relying on you. It is CRITICAL that the game is designed to funnel people into making friends.

LFR and dungeon finder at first glance appear to be wonderful pluses to WoW because it automates everything and makes it so easy to jump into a 5 man or raid. But its actually WoW's biggest cancer because it making friends suddenly becomes optional. I can run 5 mans and raid without talking to a soul. And that means the odds of me making friends drop. And without friends in the game, it becomes REALLY easy to unsub the second I get bored.

They've been making this error since late BC. it got worse in wrath. It went over the edge with cata. I firmly believe the anti social tools are the #1 reason the game is in a tailspin. (Garrisons are another anti social tool as now you can loot epic gear without even raiding or 5 manning.)

Expansion 6 MIGHT be Blizzard's final opportunity to fix this. Even if they ripped out all the social tools, it won't be an immediate fix. There will be lots of crying and people will quit. But in the long run, the playerbase will start growing again. I don't think the playerbase can get much lower than 5.6 million and survive the transition however. So this expansion might be make or break.

This game has always been for the casual player. It was one of the first MMO's where you could solo your way to max level. That was the primary appeal and for many people it still is. Having to sit in queue's for hours or spam the LFG channel to do dungeons was an archaic design. Try applying this idea to something like Call of Duty? Do you want to sit in a channel and talk to people while trying to form up to play a map? No. You want to jump into the action.

You have the option to socialize and create your own groups and then queue for anything you want. That functionality is still present. Hell, you can even run to the dungeon if that's more immersive for you. Even on a low pop server I see people forming groups in trade.

I understand the whole friends argument but with over 100 million players cycling through this game there's a very strong chance your friends that played in Vanilla don't play anymore. The same thing happens in this mystical land we call real life. It's up to you to make new friends and not rely on Blizzard to do this for you.

[vulena]

Dungeon Finder isn't killing other MMOs and isn't making their player bases as toxic as wow is. 98% of the people I meet in the FFXIV Duty Roulette are sweet as hell, and people explain fights constantly for new players.

It's not inherent in the design and can be done right.