WoW:Legion Rogue Discussion

[Sicarius87]

I think it's baseline for assassination?

no that's shadow step. bos is gone gone

[Deleted]

Not going to jump on the whine train

I don't see where is the whining in showing the facts. Yes I'm excited about the changes, but that doesn't mean that sub lost its identity which was on demand low cd burst. Even sin has lower cd on its burst now.
And I'm sorry to disagree with someone saying that we don't care about armor penetration because we will do shitload of shadow damage because that's not true. No whining there, just facts.

Sub never was cp dependant, it was cd and energy dependant(until this tier set bonus ok)

We can't say anything more until we get dps approximations of each spec now, but the fact is, sub was good pve wise for progress even if it had lower overall dps than the other specs, just because it had an insane burst to focus down specific targets. Now we lost that utility and have nothing special. And I really hope it will be compensated because lack of aoe/cleave compared to the 2 other specs + not so good burst = useless spec and that's a shame for a sec that was fine before total revamp.

[Kuroii]

i really dont see anywhere where we've lost the identity of the spec ? it seems like burst is more available now more than ever ? with constant shadow dances and openers

[Totemslap]

A developers guide to legion, class balance version:

- Remove baseline abilities
- Remove talents
- Re-distribute abilities across two separate talent tree's, one of which can only be used for PVP combat.
- Sell it to the players as "Interesting decisions".
- Profit



Irritating that Smoke Bomb is deemed PVP only. Not even for the forced utility it was given, but for the uses I find with smoke bomb in general play. It's an interesting ability, forcing line of sight.

I'll take "how to make a completely fallacious argument" for 200, Alex.

No, but seriously, people are beyond jaded and if this is honestly how you interpret the class changes in Legion then I genuinely feel sorry for your inability to appreciate when a company actually does try to fulfill one of the main selling points of their product. You may not like the methodology, but Blizzard is 100% endeavoring to make classes more interesting and more in-line with the fantasy of individual specs. It boggles the mind that people can't appreciate that. Especially for Rogues who - for the first time since vanilla - will have three distinct specs with distinct flavor.

Hell, this isn't even the first time that a baseline ability has become a talent or vice-versa. It's just happening on a larger scale in Legion because of the general re-balancing of spec tool-kits that's happening with the expansion. Moreover, given the talent trees and ability lists we've seen are from an outdated build, we have no idea how valid complaints about certain removed/shuffled abilities actually are. The one thing I do know, however, is that your argument is incredibly fallacious and shaky. Really it just seems to me like you're upset that Blizzard has different ideas about how to diversify their game than you do. Sorry, but when every spec has all the same tools as every other spec, diversity objectively starts to dissipate. For all people have complained about homogenization over the years, now that Blizzard is finally fucking doing something about it, everyone is livid and wants the homogenization to remain.

Really, just take a deep breath, get over yourself, and realize that this isn't some Machiavellian scheme to destroy your favorite class. Blizzard is genuinely trying to improve upon spec diversity, no matter how much you may disagree with their method for doing so. I'll take specs being trimmed down over specs being massively homogenized any day of the week.

[ieattoes]

Sprint is on a 30 second cd, so it's not too bad.

[Soisoisoi]

I hate BoS, it feels required when fighting any ranged and even some melee, yet feels terrible to play with - especially since you miss out on Shadowstep.

As long as they remove the hundreds of automatic/passive slows such as Shred automatically applying the Feral one (which looks like it was moved to Rake, so that's a start?), or even our own Crippling Poison I'd be fine with BoS being gone; give us Shiv back and make that our on-use slow.

[dippinsawse]

It needed to be removed. There is no way the ability could be balanced and still be recognizable as it is in its current state. No class should be able to permanently move faster than mounts while stealthed or have as much control over whether you or your opponent can leave a fight in open world that it provides.

[Deleted]

i really dont see anywhere where we've lost the identity of the spec ? it seems like burst is more available now more than ever ? with constant shadow dances and openers

Because when openers become cp builders, they don't do as much damage as openers we have now. Or else we would be bursting 100% of the time. So yeah shadowstrike is a nice ability but if we are to spam it as a cp generator ( I still doubt that we would be able to do that, or else why have bs still?), it won't be a burst ability like ambush is now.
Ofc we have to wait for at least beta to confirm this and have actual numbers, but I don't see any logic in spamming 40 energy ambushs like damaging ability as cp builder.

I really don't complain about the changes except that.
I think there can be cool things to play with there, but I really really don't understand the removal of an iconic ability that 99% of players loved in the name of fantasy (this word is making me crazy with its use everywhere, like it was a worthy explanation of everything in the game), and replace it with a "meh" cd.
Mechanical wise, and without any dps number there, I would go assa and combat and not even bother about sub if xpac came out today. As I said, no cleave, no aoe and a 3min burst that needs artifacts to be a real burst.

And I really hope they prove me wrong tbh.

[Sencha]

Good, was far too OP for RBG.

[Mafic]

It needed to be removed. There is no way the ability could be balanced and still be recognizable as it is in its current state. No class should be able to permanently move faster than mounts while stealthed or have as much control over whether you or your opponent can leave a fight in open world that it provides.

BoS was balanced. Especially considering what DH and Monks will be able to do in Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

Good, was far too OP for RBG.

DH and Monks will have stronger mobility in Legion than BoS.

[Mafic]

Sub looks like a boring tunnel spec for Legion that a lot of new players may be excited for, but is a major turn of for many veteran players. Lets call Legion Sub the new "Noob Spec"

But Assassination and Outlaw are more well rounded and actually will have more depth haha. Hard to believe that Assassination and Outlaw will have more depth in Legion than Sub but that is how the cookie crumbles.

[Deleted]

Rip fast solo'ing old raids

[Mectrid]

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/192422-...artifactRank=1

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/197241-...artifactRank=3

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/196922-into-the-fray-nnf

Who needs BoS? It was nice having it, but annoyed me more than Sprint wasn't just better and we had to have a cheap version tacked on to the class.

[Deleted]

So i try bar simulator for Legion and WOD to see the diference i play mainly PVE. Upper bar is stealth bar and all poisons is under Deadly poison...

this was my Assassination bar... and second should be in legion




there is some empty spaces i used Hemo to fill first bar and third bar need to be consolidated in second bar.


This is my combat bar in WOD and second image should be in legion




no big changes, used Ghosty strike to fill empty space


And for Sub....... my main spec its even worse




more emptie spaces and here third bar need to be merged in second bar, i got feeleng that sub need 2 more skills maybie finisher since spec mastery is about finisers or maybie 1 more DOT/debuff opener.

[papajohn4]

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/192422-...artifactRank=1

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/197241-...artifactRank=3

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/196922-into-the-fray-nnf

Who needs BoS? It was nice having it, but annoyed me more than Sprint wasn't just better and we had to have a cheap version tacked on to the class.

hm...so basically, with Fleet Footed + Catwalk(Artifact) + Nightstalker(Talent) you get 35% passive speed un-stealthed and 55% in stealth...but only for Subtlety..

[Deleted]

How much energy per second is Alacrity going to give at 25%?

[Mafic]

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/192422-...artifactRank=1

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/197241-...artifactRank=3

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/196922-into-the-fray-nnf

Who needs BoS? It was nice having it, but annoyed me more than Sprint wasn't just better and we had to have a cheap version tacked on to the class.

None of those are really good.

[Mafic]

Care to elaborate?
Because nothing there makes it seem as if they can catch up while I am on my mount.

With run speed bonuses being handed out to all classes like candy in Legion and DH having their mastery increase X amount of run speed and damage per point of mastery they will be the most agile leather wearing user easily.

DH Fel Rush has 2 charges and is 10 second recharge. Combined with their mobility from mastery (which scales) and run speed bonuses from gear they might as well not even bother with a ground mount in Legion. DH will be able to double jump and glide with no restrictions too.


Monks have a talent like Tiger's Lust which removes all roots and snares and increases movement speed by 70% for 6 sec on a 30s CD (The BoS Rogues have asked Blizz to give since MoP beta).

Monks can forgo Tiger's Lust for Torpedo that has two charges (20s recharge) and replaces Roll but has a longer distance per activation. Or Celerity that gives an extra charge on roll and reduces the cool down of roll by 5s.

So far nothing out of the ordinary for Monks from live right (Don't forget Flying Serpent Kick)? Here is where things go bonkers.

PVP talent tree third tier:

Maneuveriability: Increases the number of charges of roll by 1. or Fast Feet (Move 10% faster after being attacked for 2s).

The fourth tier of the PVP tree has Whirling Kicks which increases your movement speed up to 100% and heals you to 10% for number of targets hit.

The fifth tier of the PVP tree has Yurlon's Gift which dispel all snares when Torpedo, Roll or Flying Serpent Kick are used or a choice of Double Dragon which grants an additional charge to Flying Serpent Kick.

With run speed bonuses from gear Monks, like DH probably don't need to bother with a ground mount in Legion either.

Rogues will be the least mobile leather wearing melee easily in Legion.

[elfporn]

How much energy per second is Alacrity going to give at 25%?

5% less than bloodlust.

[Deleted]

Personally I am satisfied that they have eliminated this weakness; and then have found in the PvP talents.