Mage Logs: please look!

[Deleted]

Hi all! I am on asking on behalf of our guild for you to have a look at our mages and see what might be going wrong and what could be improved performance, rotation, even playstyle/talent selection wise. We are having trouble identifying exactly why we're not up to standard raid-wise. Group execution is one thing but I could use your valuable info about lovely magerinas! More detail the better <3


Baah: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Baah/advanced
Dhabius: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...abius/advanced

LOGS: (both mages are present)

Soc: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hRdC7Vfav4gzNTFM
Iskar: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...zNTFM#fight=17
Council: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...gzNTFM#fight=3
Kormrok: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...gzNTFM#fight=5


Just so you know I have permission from both to make this thread as I will be going over all raiders for fairness and there's ALWAYS something that can be improved. I'm asking all you amazing fellows about our mages because I wouldn't know where to begin (with any dps class really!). Both of them will also be following this thread for discussion! xx THANK YOU VERY MUCH x

[Manaokungpao]

So, pretty much immediately after looking at the armory pages of both mages, I noticed there are some pretty poor choices in gear. Each mage has more than a few pieces that are essentially nothing but "intellect buffs" because the secondary stats on those pieces are essentially useless. For example, any piece with haste multi / crit multi isn't that good, Usually, you can afford to have a piece or two that are itemized that way and get away with it, but in regards to Dhabius' crit haste trinket and Baah's crit haste weapon and crit multi offhand, those items (weapons and trinkets) have huge impacts on damage. So when you have really bad trinkets or bad weapons, you'll notice a rather significant swing in your damage when you can get your hands on some better ones (this is under the assumption they are fundamentally playing the class correctly). So because of the current gear choices that each mage has made, they are both suffering from a massive lost of mastery. My mage, whom of which I have stopped raiding on earlier this tier, was just at 703 ilvl as we were pushing into mythic HFC and had 80.56% unbuffed mastery. Dhabius has a somewhat reasonable 64% but Baah has a extraordinarily low 52% mastery which can have pretty massive effects on their damage. So, a simple fix in their gear choice can have a pretty good impact on their damage.

Only having time to look at one fight worth of logs (I can do more later if wanted), I chose to look at iron reaver. Being a pure single target fight, arcane mages should definitely always be within the top 2-3 on the damage meters because it is primarily just a light movement patchwerk race on the boss. Noticing something immediately, one of the mages got a super late jump on their prismatic crystal burst rotation and was also running RoP (rune of power). The burst CD's could have been a fluke, but running RoP on that fight is pretty much damage suicide. That fight can put both heavy and light movement on any player, however, running RoP is really only viable in fights where moving is predetermined. For example, putting 2 marks on Kilrogg for movement (moving from star to orange) with Death thros, the mage can put their rune of power on each of the markers essentially eliminating the need to replace their runes until the timer runes out. In this particular iron reaver fight, this particular mage doesn't know where he is going to move each time because there is an uncertainty to whether or not they will get marked with barrage / charge / etc. etc. So, when they are continually wasting that time repositioning and recasting RoP they are losing out on so much damage in the end. That was only one mage, as for the other it may have just been a movement / rotation problem that I would have to look further into.

Honestly, each mage seemingly has an overarching problem with gearing and stat priorization, but each may have their own problems w/ managing their rotation while moving or chosing the right talents on a particular boss fight. Like I said, I only got the chance to look at one fight, but the things that I noticed (like running RoP) can actually just be a simple fix that will do wonder's for a mage's damage. What I have mentioned regarding stat prioritization is a good jumping off point for both of them. Hopefullly I was of some help.

[Whinewhisper]

"For example, any piece with haste multi / crit multi isn't that good,"

This is complete rubbish. Haste is THE VERY BEST SECONDARY STAT FOR ARCANE MAGE until a certain level due to our T18 setbonuses.

With t18 2pc
intellect > spellpower > haste till ~1300 > mastery > haste > multistrike > crit=versatility

With t18 4pc
intellect > spellpower > haste till ~2100 > mastery > haste > multistrike > crit=versatility

From altered-time.com

Also from simming Baah his scaling is:
Int : 8.20
Haste: 7.94
Spellpower: 7.12
Mastery: 5.75
Multistrike: 4.89
Crit: 4.62
Versatility: 4.47

So haste is AMAZING!! If you have the choice between a haste+whatever stat or mastery+whatever stat at same ilvl, haste piece > mastery piece (unless you've reached the cutoffs).

So your whole first paragraph is actually completely bs and incorrect.

You are right in that ROP on reaver is pretty stupid though.. Also there seem to be some issues with not using all AM procs and making all 5 missiles hit. Also low usage of supernova, if it was timed with multiple triggered heroes with stacked buffs I guess that's ok, cba checking.

"Honestly, each mage seemingly has an overarching problem with gearing and stat priorization"

Is right but for the wrong reasons. It's right because they haven't gemmed/enchanted for haste like they should, but not because they lack mastery as Manaokungpao thinks.

[Scort]

So, pretty much immediately after looking at the armory pages of both mages, I noticed there are some pretty poor choices in gear. Each mage has more than a few pieces that are essentially nothing but "intellect buffs" because the secondary stats on those pieces are essentially useless. For example, any piece with haste multi / crit multi isn't that good, Usually, you can afford to have a piece or two that are itemized that way and get away with it, but in regards to Dhabius' crit haste trinket and Baah's crit haste weapon and crit multi offhand, those items (weapons and trinkets) have huge impacts on damage. So when you have really bad trinkets or bad weapons, you'll notice a rather significant swing in your damage when you can get your hands on some better ones (this is under the assumption they are fundamentally playing the class correctly). So because of the current gear choices that each mage has made, they are both suffering from a massive lost of mastery. My mage, whom of which I have stopped raiding on earlier this tier, was just at 703 ilvl as we were pushing into mythic HFC and had 80.56% unbuffed mastery. Dhabius has a somewhat reasonable 64% but Baah has a extraordinarily low 52% mastery which can have pretty massive effects on their damage. So, a simple fix in their gear choice can have a pretty good impact on their damage.

I don't have time to look into their logs at the moment but I wanted to address this. You're really overstating the value of having ideal secondaries. In most cases the ilvl of a piece trumps everything else unless it's a very small difference. If they have gear of similar ilvl with better secondaries they might be able to optimize a bit but I doubt that looking at their armories.

[Deleted]

Looking at logs:

Mana
Another good example how to not do it. For both cases.
Both used Evocation 2 times (should be 4 times).
At Dhabius you can atleast recognize something like a burnphase followed with Evo. Baah just stands there and nuke what he finds is good.
I will not go deeper into this because imho they both lack the fundamental idea of conserve/burn for arcane.
They can find a Guide here where they can find anything useful for that.
They should first focus on getting the conserverotation done without dropping under 83% mana. Then try to squeeze in burn.
After that come back with other logs and we will look again.

[Summer]

Don't think rune on reaver hc is "damage suicide" necessarily. If you want you can Evanesce / invis any Barrage that comes your way and just blink out of Blitz if caught. I mean it's not what I do but I think if someone wants to do this, it's perfectly valid.

Disclaimer: did not check rune uptimes for this case as was talking more in general, if he has less than 90 % then he should swap talents of course.

[Deleted]

Since I've gotten some help when asked, I'll give it a look as well.

In general to start, if they have the new tier, haste trumps other stats, in some cases even intellect. The main reason is the synergy with the 2-set and 2 BiS trinkets.
If they don't, but still have the old set piece, Mastery might be better. Either way, the difference shouldn't be major as long as they don't go 50/50.

@Baah: Glyph for Icy Veins as frost!!!
For Arcane, it might also be better for him to drop the glyph of arcane power so his cooldowns align better making the rotation easier.
Non-ideal trinkets, why are mages getting these? They are better for other classes.
@Dhabius: 4-set, go full haste (regem/enchant).
Once you get the class trinket, don't forget to drop the AP glyph.
Non-ideal trinkets, why are mages getting these? They are better for other classes.

On logs, neither seems to really use the burn/conserve phase very well. They drop a bit too low too often.
General Prismatic Crystal use/damage also seems to be a bit on the low side. Placement is key, and having a tank who takes this into account also helps.

As for rotation, on Gorefiend for example, you want to start by burning your cooldowns, and then keep them for the first Feast (2 minute mark), meaning that is your second burn phase. Either way, if you look at the general mana use, its very different from my own.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...rces&spell=100
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=25&spell=100

So I agree with the guys above, make sure they understand the essentials of Arcane mage. The burn/conserve phase are the basics to doing good damage. These change when you get the class trinket/4-set, so make sure they know this.

[Noobles]

Have they been unlucky with trinkets? PoF trinket is probably the best trinket for mages...especially as frost. And now with arcane too..it allows arcane a better degree of aoe.

Maybe tell them to go frost until they have better gear? other then for iron reaver...but even then frost is not bad at all.
Better movement...better aoe...even single target if you know what you are doing.

gl

[shinedowNn]

none of the mages has class trinket or doom nova for arcane i think thats is the most important change before touching how they play in my opinion
just from breif review
+ kromok fight one of them did rly decent, on iskar they cant do aoe dmg since frost is sh it for mass aoe while arcane rly good at it but they cant do aoe without doom nova trinket...

in my opinion go normal farm those trinkets for both of them the doom nova trinket from manorth and class trinket from archimonde get them to change stats to haste instand of mastery on enchants and remove arcane power glyph

i think for the start that will improve their dps by alot.

[Deleted]

none of the mages has class trinket or doom nova for arcane i think thats is the most important change before touching how they play in my opinion

Thats just plain wrong. Even with trinkets and BiS-gear u pull only decent numbers if your rota sucks.
Neither Doom Nova nor Tome change the rota in a fundamental way. And here the fundamental rota sucks. It will even more suck with trinkets. If u dont get burn u will never get any value out of the tome.
Learn the rota->get trinkets->adapt rota for trinkets

[Whinewhisper]

Have they been unlucky with trinkets? PoF trinket is probably the best trinket for mages...especially as frost. And now with arcane too..it allows arcane a better degree of aoe.

Maybe tell them to go frost until they have better gear? other then for iron reaver...but even then frost is not bad at all.
Better movement...better aoe...even single target if you know what you are doing.

gl

PoF is the best, especially for ARCANE. No other spec in THE GAME can compare to the utilization arcane gets from PoF due to every single missile proccing an explosion (so 1 cast = 5 missiles = 5 procs if all 5 missiles hit). It's great for both classes, especially on cleave/AOE. But it's BIS after classtrinket for singletarget, BIS for multitarget for arcane. I can't remember the exact trinket rankings for single/multi for frost.

Not to mention on several fights you might just not want to use your class trinket because you want raw stats, ie for add-handling more often than every time AP is up.

[Phlintlock]

You are right in that ROP on reaver is pretty stupid though.. Also there seem to be some issues with not using all AM procs and making all 5 missiles hit. Also low usage of supernova, if it was timed with multiple triggered heroes with stacked buffs I guess that's ok, cba checking.

"Honestly, each mage seemingly has an overarching problem with gearing and stat priorization"

Is right but for the wrong reasons. It's right because they haven't gemmed/enchanted for haste like they should, but not because they lack mastery as Manaokungpao thinks.

RoP on reaver is great if you also take evanesce. Between Evanesce Gi and Altered Time you can get pretty much perfect uptime. Send your mages to Altered-time.com. Anyone on here with good information is getting it from there anyways. They must have read like a shitty icy-veins or noxxic guide or something, their rotation is so far off I think they're misinformed over just playing it wrong.