De-homogenization of Mages, what do you want to see?

[twistedmynd]

There were also a few posts back a ways that talked about how you can't do combustion without an ignite addon. I don't always get that.

If combust is off cooldown, every second that goes by without casting it is an overall loss of dps. So as it's about to come off cooldown or as it comes off cooldown, you basically should be using the next heating up-trick combo for it, regardless of how many pyroblasts crit.

Now, there are situations where hanging onto combust, gaming it for adds, or optimizing an ignite tracker will yield better performance. But an ignite tracker isn't "mandatory" or "required".

[Imnick]

Arcane needs to manage mana. Frost and Fire does not.

That's why I was replying to someone talking about removing Mana Adept, which Frost and Fire do not have.

[Deleted]

Hey, there was a time in HFC that frost mana mattered. The trash of Archimonde. Seriously though, removing it is not interesting since it's like being there unused so for most players it's not a change, I might as well remove it from my UI frames myself.

It's interesting though if you replace it with other resources.

Procs like FoF are already though sort-of, resources.

[Fennixx]

Staying about 88% mana is definitely mana management, and I don't know how you could possibly say otherwise. It's easy to mess up (by casting AB even just one too many times) and forces you not to do your most potent rotation.
"I do not want my mana to go below this number" is literally the definition of managing your mana. Once you remove the only thing that says "arcane mages, you need to stay at high mana" then we'll just conserve at 10% mana instead, because it means we get to burn more often.

Sort of managing...

I'd rather get a system where AP was highly costly and not a CD (to use on demand at full mana, trinket procs, specific boss phases and high priority targets), evocation was in a longer cd and normal dps rotation (w/o AP) was just average.

And no, you can't just stay mindlessly at 10% mana (like we do at >88%), because you might need way more than 10% to burn AP on trinket procs, high dmg phases (i.e.feast of souls) and high priority targets. Only by doing that you could stay competitive.

You know, actual management by choosing when to spend more resources and when to save em, in a more interesting way (IMO) than current arcane.

[Deleted]

How would that be different since Evocation would gimp you?

[Imnick]

Sort of managing...

I'd rather get a system where AP was highly costly and not a CD (to use on demand at full mana, trinket procs, specific boss phases and high priority targets), evocation was in a longer cd and normal dps rotation (w/o AP) was just average.

And no, you can't just stay mindlessly at 10% mana (like we do at >88%), because you might need way more than 10% to burn AP on trinket procs, high dmg phases (i.e.feast of souls) and high priority targets. Only by doing that you could stay competitive.

You know, actual management by choosing when to spend more resources and when to save em, in a more interesting way (IMO) than current arcane.

How your proposed changes would work would be exactly the same as present, except we'd just toggle AP on after evocating in order to go back to 10%, then sit at 10% until Evocation was off cooldown again.
Evocation is our only way to return to high mana in a timely manner, so unless you are adding a lesser mana regen spell then we're still just going to swap between burning and conserving in exactly the same manner, trinket procs would not change this.

[Fennixx]

How your proposed changes would work would be exactly the same as present, except we'd just toggle AP on after evocating in order to go back to 10%, then sit at 10% until Evocation was off cooldown again.
Evocation is our only way to return to high mana in a timely manner, so unless you are adding a lesser mana regen spell then we're still just going to swap between burning and conserving in exactly the same manner, trinket procs would not change this.

Like I said, Arcane and Elementalist would get mana gems back and evo should have a longer CD (perhaps going back to old CD?). Messing with those could have drastic effects on overall dmg if you had no mana to spend when really needed (heroism, priority targets etc.)

The point is, I think it's way more interesting (as you'd have more control about your dmg) to have AP on demand, to adjust (sort of how metamorfosis works for demo locks). The amount of control on how and where to spend resources is incredible on non-demonbolt demolocks (yeah I know demo is a no go in HFC but I'm talking about general playstile). Right now we "kinda" use AP on CD. It's boring.

Dunno, maybe I've played this class too much (day 1 player here). I will probably never abandon my mage (as long as blink is in the game), but i'm really looking foward for huge spec de-homogenization* (kinda how locks were redesigned, how looks like hunters will be). Tired of proc, filler, CD archetype (and mana as useless resource for 2/3 of our specs).

*EDIT: not saying my suggestions are best. They're probably shit as I'm just player (and a lawyer), with no experience on game design. But I know for sure all 3 specs would play (way) differently from each other.

[Quetlock]

*EDIT: not saying my suggestions are best. They're probably shit as I'm just player (and a lawyer), with no experience on game design. But I know for sure all 3 specs would play (way) differently from each other.

How would that be any different from right now? I see literally no similarity between the 3 playstyles. Each spec has a unique role, unique spells, and different strengths and weaknesses.

Personally mages have been adequately de-homogenised this xpac. The only cross school spells we have are FFB and the CC spells (Cone of cold, poly, frost nova etc.)

[Fennixx]

How would that be any different from right now? I see literally no similarity between the 3 playstyles. Each spec has a unique role, unique spells, and different strengths and weaknesses.

Personally mages have been adequately de-homogenised this xpac. The only cross school spells we have are FFB and the CC spells (Cone of cold, poly, frost nova etc.)

As the very existence of this thread implies, some people disagree with you.

By your definition no class would ever get redesigns, because no spec - at any given time - had same spells, same strenghts and same weaknesses. Let me repeat. Not a single spec.

Cata affliction, demo and Destro had different spells, different rotation, different pros and cons, used different demons and yet... locks got a MAJOR revamp in MoP.

Same could be said for hunters. All 3 specs play differently on live. And yet hunters are being redesigned.

Thats the point of this thread. If you dont agree about this "proc, filler, CD archetype" being old and boring, good for you.

[Quetlock]

As the very existence of this thread implies, some people disagree with you.

By your definition no class would ever get redesigns, because no spec - at any given time - had same spells, same strenghts and same weaknesses. Let me repeat. Not a single spec.

Cata affliction, demo and Destro had different spells, different rotation, different pros and cons, used different demons and yet... locks got a MAJOR revamp in MoP.

Same could be said for hunters. All 3 specs play differently on live. And yet hunters are being redesigned.

Thats the point of this thread. If you dont agree about this "proc, filler, CD archetype" being old and boring, good for you.

Well, first off, de-homogenisation is not the only reason specs get revamps. Specs may get revamps because the mechanics are clunky (cata locks, with pet twisting) or because game changes make certain specs obsolete (ele mastery becoming multistrike). But this is specifically a de-homogensiation thread, and I do not think mages need to be de-homogensied any further. I fail to see an overlap between spells, roles or playstyles of the 3 specs.

Hunters are way way more homogenised than mages are - they share identical spells (steady shot, level 75/90 talents which are the same for hunters unlike mages), and their rotations follow the same priority - use steady shot to generate focus and use focus to spend your 10-15 second filler ability (kill command, chimaera, explosive shot). Until recently, they even had kill shot in common, which is still a thing for 2 out of 3 specs.

Compare hunters to mages - each mage spec feels a billion times more differentiated, not just based on spells, but also based on roles. In fact, mage specs being so varied is why we ended up playing all 3 specs at various points in highmaul, brf and hfc, and that is the reason why even the top mages switch around specs for fights - because one spec is better than the other at a particular mechanic. That's the definition of de-homogenised.

Now, I would certainly like to see some mage things changed (arcane missile RNG, fire crit scaling, frost having 2 mandatory glyphs for 99% of raiding), but none of this falls into the category of de-homogenization.

Edit : Also, I never understood the whole "dot proc filler" argument.
A) every spec in the game has procs and cooldowns. And that is not going to change. Further, the only standard +x% dmg cooldown mages have is Icy veins. Arcane power is quite unique in that your burn phase is tied to it. Combustion is very unique as well, since it is on the target, is spreadable, and is built off of ignite, which is probably the most unique mechanic in game.
B) frost has no DoTs whatsoever, and arcane has 1 dot, which is a talent, and is further limited to 1 target, so its very different from traditional dots like moonfire/SW:P/UA/corruption etc. Also, let's not forget living bomb, another very unique DoT. Living bomb is the only DoT in game that does a majority of its dmg at the end, like a true bomb. Further, its spreadable, and has the same exponential scaling of fire nova for enhance.

I could go on, but I think I've explained how each mage spec is very de-homogenised.

[Charge me Doctor]

That's why hunters get surv melee'd. It's not the case of "but hunters have it worse! we don't need fixing!" it's the case of "hunters have it worse, look how they got treated, we need to get same treatment so we won't end in similar situation"

[Deleted]

... we need to get same treatment so we won't end in similar situation"

Under the assumption fire gets it rework (which imho will be done) i dont see a point where we can come in a similar situation.
Ok no one knows for sure fire will get a rework and even if we know they will do something no one knows what is something but as stated above imho fire will get a rework and after that its clearly diversed from frost and arcane.
Frost and arcane are dehomogenized enough that i dont see a problem in the future.
It all stands and fall with fire rework or not.

[Deleted]

Well, first off, de-homogenisation is not the only reason specs get revamps. Specs may get revamps because the mechanics are clunky (cata locks, with pet twisting) or because game changes make certain specs obsolete (ele mastery becoming multistrike).

I bet sometimes they change it for the change itself, for the novelty. It's the only explanation some classes were butchered in 6.0. No sane person would think disc priest 6.0 was an improvement for instance.

[Imnick]

To add to that, all Mage specs use completely different spells. All Hunter specs actually do use most of the same abilities.
Same pets, same weapons, generate focus with steady/cobra shot, spend focus on your spec specific spells when available, dump excess on arcane shot to prevent capping. That describes all three hunter specs.

The Survival and Beast Mastery priorities differ only in that for Beast Mastery, Priority One and Two are Kill Command and Kill Shot and that for Survival, Priorities One and Two are Explosive Shot and Black Arrow. Then for Marksmanship, Priority One is Chimaera Shot, Priority Two is Kill Shot, and you replace Arcane Shot with Aimed Shot (this one is the most different of the three, purely because you spend more time casting and less time on instants).
The rest of the priority list is literally the same, with the same spells.
Mages aren't, have never been, and are at no risk of being in that situation.

[Deleted]

To expand on "change for the change itself" think of how many times they left a class completely untouched from one expansion to another. That's right, never. That can't be coincidence, they also want change for the change itself.

[Armbre]

I think mages are in a decent spot the only changes that i really want are fire to be more consistent thoughout an expansion and actually be playable for more than one patch. arcane is okay but i'd like to see another option to dump the debuff perhaps barrage more dmg, but another spell gives a bit of mana increasing longevity adding some more descisions to arcane. Frost is in a pretty good spot for the most part with the changes in wod i cant think of anything i'd want to change about it except a bit less burst and a little more sustain.

[Polarthief]

I think mages are in a decent spot the only changes that i really want are fire to be more consistent thoughout an expansion and actually be playable for more than one patch. arcane is okay but i'd like to see another option to dump the debuff perhaps barrage more dmg, but another spell gives a bit of mana increasing longevity adding some more descisions to arcane. Frost is in a pretty good spot for the most part with the changes in wod i cant think of anything i'd want to change about it except a bit less burst and a little more sustain.

I'd actually love to see a mana generator spell or have a mana system more akin to Destruction (rapid regeneration and degradation) over what we have now. This whole "conserve/burst" thing is rather bland, and it's extremely penalizing if you fuck it up. Being low on mana and not having Evocation up means you're practically in wanding mode for awhile, and even if you do have Evocation, you're giving up your burn phase to fix the error, or staying in wand mode for awhile.

Idk, might just be me. Arcane's okay (though I dislike it), but think it could really use some spicing up.

[Emeraldon]

That's why I was replying to someone talking about removing Mana Adept, which Frost and Fire do not have.

My bad. Didn't see anyone quoted so I thought you replied to OP. :>

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I'd actually love to see a mana generator spell or have a mana system more akin to Destruction (rapid regeneration and degradation) over what we have now. This whole "conserve/burst" thing is rather bland, and it's extremely penalizing if you fuck it up. Being low on mana and not having Evocation up means you're practically in wanding mode for awhile, and even if you do have Evocation, you're giving up your burn phase to fix the error, or staying in wand mode for awhile.

Idk, might just be me. Arcane's okay (though I dislike it), but think it could really use some spicing up.

I agrew with your previous post; make Arcane about time and space.